Fish short of oxygen? - advice please

Hello

I have a pond of about 18 X 12 feet with a max. depth of 3.5 feet. The water
is clear and there is lots of vegetation, mostly
water lilies, irises and oxygenating plants.
There are about 30-35 ghost koi, comets and shubunkins of varying sizes up
to around 12" plus a load of small fish of various types from fry size to
3-4 inches - I would guess at about 60-80.
I have adequate filtration which incorporates a fountain at one end and a
waterfall at the other.
What's concerning me is that most of the comets and shubunkins and one or
two of the koi seem to spend all their time on the surface under the
waterfall ( they ignore the fountain). Other than gasping at the surface
they appear to be OK, there is no other unusual behaviour and they feed as
usual.
The weather (I am in southern England) makes no difference to their
behaviour.
I have bought some air stones which I am running for 3-4 hours a day. The
fish move away from the waterfall whilst these are switched on but the next
morning they are back to gasping on the surface again.
I would like any advice on whether the pond is overcrowded or if the water
needs testing. If the latter what do I test for and how do I interpret the
results.

I have thought for some time I would like to remove a lot of the smaller
fish so any ideas as to the best method/least stressful to the fish
would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Conrad

"Conrad" wrote in message
...
Hello

I have a pond of about 18 X 12 feet with a max. depth of 3.5 feet. The
water is clear and there is lots of vegetation, mostly
water lilies, irises and oxygenating plants.
There are about 30-35 ghost koi, comets and shubunkins of varying sizes up
to around 12" plus a load of small fish of various types from fry size to
3-4 inches - I would guess at about 60-80.
I have adequate filtration which incorporates a fountain at one end and a
waterfall at the other.
What's concerning me is that most of the comets and shubunkins and one or
two of the koi seem to spend all their time on the surface under the
waterfall ( they ignore the fountain). Other than gasping at the surface
they appear to be OK, there is no other unusual behaviour and they feed as
usual.
The weather (I am in southern England) makes no difference to their
behaviour.
I have bought some air stones which I am running for 3-4 hours a day. The
fish move away from the waterfall whilst these are switched on but the
next morning they are back to gasping on the surface again.

## Why don't you REMOVE some of these fish? Your pond sounds terribly
overcrowded. You can also add something like a water-foamer or water-ball
run by a 500gph pump.

I would like any advice on whether the pond is overcrowded or if the water
needs testing. If the latter what do I test for and how do I interpret the
results.

## I would think you do need to test the water and REMOVE some fish! The
stress alone from overcrowding must be getting to them,.. no less the lack
of oxygen. How much mulm is on the pond bottom? Are you doing partial
water changes?

I have thought for some time I would like to remove a lot of the smaller
fish so any ideas as to the best method/least stressful to the fish
would be appreciated.

## We drain down our ponds and net out the excess fish at least every 2
years. Those we're keeping go into a pool until the pond is *cleaned* and
refilled. The others go into a pool until I can deliver them to the pet shop
or whoever is taking them. When the ponds are refilled I return the fish
and plants we're keeping. We've been doing this since 1995.

Thanks in advance.

Conrad
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killf..._troll_faq.htm

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:16:59 +0100, Conrad wrote:

I have bought some air stones which I am running for 3-4 hours a day. The
fish move away from the waterfall whilst these are switched on but the next
morning they are back to gasping on the surface again.
I would like any advice on whether the pond is overcrowded or if the water
needs testing. If the latter what do I test for and how do I interpret the
results.

It does sound like they are short of oxygen and I'd leave the airstones
on all the time, especially at night.

Plants respire (breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide) all
of the time. It's just that in the daylight the photosynthesis uses far
more carbon dioxide and releases more oxygen than the respiration uses
so the net result is the release of oxygen and the consumption of
carbon dioxide.

It also sounds as though you have more fish than your environment can
cope with. You don't mention filtration. Bacteria also consumes oxygen
and if you have no filtration to remove the detrius it will be lying at
the bottom of the pond and bacteria will be decomposing it.

Also both chlorine and ammonia can damage the gills of fish and that
will result in them needing more oxygen in the water than they would
require with normal gills.

It's difficult to guess at exactly what the problem is but hopefully
the above will give you somethings to investigate. It would also be
worth testing the water (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PH, KH and GH) and
posting the results.

I don't know about the stocking level but
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u...pages/home.php has
calculators where you enter the size of your pond and it tells you what
it recommends.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:16:59 +0100, "Conrad" wrote:

Hello

I have a pond of about 18 X 12 feet with a max. depth of 3.5 feet. The water
is clear and there is lots of vegetation,
30-35 ghost koi, comets and shubunkins up to 12"
plus a load of small fish of various types from fry size to
3-4 inches - I would guess at about 60-80.
I have adequate filtration which incorporates a fountain at one end and a
waterfall at the other.
What's concerning me is that most of the comets and shubunkins and one or
two of the koi seem to spend all their time on the surface under the
waterfall ( they ignore the fountain). Other than gasping at the surface
they appear to be OK, there is no other unusual behaviour and they feed as
usual. Conrad

Are these your largest fish? If they are all the big ones, I'd agree with
the rest, add more O2 24/7.

If some of the larger fish are swimming around unaffected, the others may
have something wrong with their gills, damage from ammonia & chlorine as
mentioned, or gill parasites... i.e., gill flukes.

Regardless, I think we're all pretty much in agreement you need to remove
fish. Though the math claims you might have over 5,600 gallons rarely is it
actuate and you probably have more like 4500.... or room for all your adult
fish mentioned, with adequate filtration, imo. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:16:59 +0100, "Conrad"
wrote:

Hello

I have a pond of about 18 X 12 feet with a max. depth of 3.5 feet. The water
is clear and there is lots of vegetation, mostly
water lilies, irises and oxygenating plants.
There are about 30-35 ghost koi, comets and shubunkins of varying sizes up
to around 12" plus a load of small fish of various types from fry size to
3-4 inches - I would guess at about 60-80.
I have adequate filtration which incorporates a fountain at one end and a
waterfall at the other.
What's concerning me is that most of the comets and shubunkins and one or
two of the koi seem to spend all their time on the surface under the
waterfall ( they ignore the fountain). Other than gasping at the surface
they appear to be OK, there is no other unusual behaviour and they feed as
usual.
The weather (I am in southern England) makes no difference to their
behaviour.
I have bought some air stones which I am running for 3-4 hours a day. The
fish move away from the waterfall whilst these are switched on but the next
morning they are back to gasping on the surface again.
I would like any advice on whether the pond is overcrowded or if the water
needs testing. If the latter what do I test for and how do I interpret the
results.

I have thought for some time I would like to remove a lot of the smaller
fish so any ideas as to the best method/least stressful to the fish
would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Conrad


Way, way, WAY too many fish.

You need to keep a sharp eye on ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite levels
and remove most of those fish. My advice is to keep the 10-12 you like
most and remove the rest ASAP.

I use a minnow trap similar this in order to remove fish:

http://wildco.com/vw_prdct_mdl.asp?prdct_mdl_cd=125G10

The local department store carries an inexpensice version of this trap
that works great with a bit of food wrapped in cheesecloth for bait.

Good luck!
MP
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin

OK, thanks for the advice. It definitely looks like there are too many fish.
This kind of crept up on me this year
- I didn't realize how quick the fish were breeding.
I have had a close look at the fish on the surface and they do not appear to
have signs of gill disease or indeed anything else amiss.
I'm keeping the air stones on 24/7 until I can remove some of the fish.

Thanks for the help.

Conrad

"Mike Patterson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:16:59 +0100, "Conrad"
wrote:

Hello

I have a pond of about 18 X 12 feet with a max. depth of 3.5 feet. The
water
is clear and there is lots of vegetation, mostly
water lilies, irises and oxygenating plants.
There are about 30-35 ghost koi, comets and shubunkins of varying sizes up
to around 12" plus a load of small fish of various types from fry size to
3-4 inches - I would guess at about 60-80.
I have adequate filtration which incorporates a fountain at one end and a
waterfall at the other.
What's concerning me is that most of the comets and shubunkins and one or
two of the koi seem to spend all their time on the surface under the
waterfall ( they ignore the fountain). Other than gasping at the surface
they appear to be OK, there is no other unusual behaviour and they feed as
usual.
The weather (I am in southern England) makes no difference to their
behaviour.
I have bought some air stones which I am running for 3-4 hours a day. The
fish move away from the waterfall whilst these are switched on but the
next
morning they are back to gasping on the surface again.
I would like any advice on whether the pond is overcrowded or if the water
needs testing. If the latter what do I test for and how do I interpret the
results.

I have thought for some time I would like to remove a lot of the smaller
fish so any ideas as to the best method/least stressful to the fish
would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Conrad


Way, way, WAY too many fish.

You need to keep a sharp eye on ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite levels
and remove most of those fish. My advice is to keep the 10-12 you like
most and remove the rest ASAP.

I use a minnow trap similar this in order to remove fish:

http://wildco.com/vw_prdct_mdl.asp?prdct_mdl_cd=125G10

The local department store carries an inexpensice version of this trap
that works great with a bit of food wrapped in cheesecloth for bait.

Good luck!
MP
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." -
Lily Tomlin

"Conrad" writes:

What's concerning me is that most of the comets and shubunkins and one or
two of the koi seem to spend all their time on the surface under the
waterfall ( they ignore the fountain). Other than gasping at the surface
they appear to be OK, there is no other unusual behaviour and they feed as
usual.
The weather (I am in southern England) makes no difference to their
behaviour.
I have bought some air stones which I am running for 3-4 hours a day. The
fish move away from the waterfall whilst these are switched on but the next
morning they are back to gasping on the surface again.

You received alot of excellent advice already. Another option would be to add
aeration to the filter if possible. I added a spraybar to mine and it solved a
similar problem. It makes for a less noisy pond to aerate the filter if you
prefer quiet sometimes.