Resilience of fish

I am constantly impressed by the resilience of fish.

I had to move a tank at the weekend in a hurry.

I squashed a cardinal between the net and the tank which left
it temporarily stunned Never mind, into the bag it plopped...

I could only keep half of their pH 6 or below water, and had to
top it up with pH 8 from the tap. So much for all this "only
change 0.1pH at a time"... there was no way to get the internal
filter running until the tank was refilled.

And how are the fish in their temporary home? They are absolutely
fine! It's been three days and they seem right as rain.

They are a strange bunch to start with, 2 year old cardinals and
a blind angel, and they are obviously a tough lot!

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

"Flash Wilson" wrote in message
...
I am constantly impressed by the resilience of fish.
I could only keep half of their pH 6 or below water, and had to
top it up with pH 8 from the tap. So much for all this "only
change 0.1pH at a time"...
============
I think NetMax (correct me if I'm wrong) said it's the other dissolved
things in the water and not the PH itself that kills them if there's a
difference. I know if I don't acclimate fish from certain stores where the
PH is low and the water is soft to my water with a high PH and high
alkalinity, they will often die. They gasp at the surface before dying.
Sometimes it takes a few days for them to die. Whether it's the PH
difference or other things in the water I have no idea......
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria groups.
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

In article ,
Koi-Lo wrote:

"Flash Wilson" wrote in message
. ..
I am constantly impressed by the resilience of fish.
I could only keep half of their pH 6 or below water, and had to
top it up with pH 8 from the tap. So much for all this "only
change 0.1pH at a time"...
============
I think NetMax (correct me if I'm wrong) said it's the other dissolved
things in the water and not the PH itself that kills them if there's a
difference. I know if I don't acclimate fish from certain stores where the
PH is low and the water is soft to my water with a high PH and high
alkalinity, they will often die. They gasp at the surface before dying.
Sometimes it takes a few days for them to die. Whether it's the PH
difference or other things in the water I have no idea......

Holy **** wher do I begin to unravel these distorted half truths
and heresay?

1) It was Me, not Max, referrng to JJ. Scheels documentation
on this subject in "Rivulins of the Old World".

2) He asserted pH doesn't matter. Going from soft to hard water
doesn't matter.

3) Going from hard to soft water matters. Fish cannot endure a chnage
of more than 50% differnce when going from water than is "softer";
that is, less dissolved solids.

4) Gasping at the surface is a sign of ammonia poisoning through
"old tank syndrome". Ammonia is very very toxic in neutral or
alkaline water, but harmless in acid water. Old tanks, over time
become acidic; when fresh water is added the pH goes up and
all that ammonia becomes very toxic very quickly. Fish
excrete ammonia through their gills and when they can not
because theres too much ammonia in the water, they gasp at
the surface and often die.

Please stop guessing.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Moments before spontaneously combusting Richard Sexton at
was heard to say:

In article ,
Koi-Lo wrote:

"Flash Wilson" wrote in message
...
I am constantly impressed by the resilience of fish.
I could only keep half of their pH 6 or below water, and had to
top it up with pH 8 from the tap. So much for all this "only
change 0.1pH at a time"...
============
I think NetMax (correct me if I'm wrong) said it's the other
dissolved things in the water and not the PH itself that kills them
if there's a difference. I know if I don't acclimate fish from
certain stores where the PH is low and the water is soft to my water
with a high PH and high alkalinity, they will often die. They gasp
at the surface before dying. Sometimes it takes a few days for them
to die. Whether it's the PH difference or other things in the water
I have no idea......

Holy **** wher do I begin to unravel these distorted half truths
and heresay?

I said I *THOUGHT* it was Max.

1) It was Me, not Max, referrng to JJ. Scheels documentation
on this subject in "Rivulins of the Old World".

2) He asserted pH doesn't matter. Going from soft to hard water
doesn't matter.

I thought I said above: "...and not the PH itself that kills them."

3) Going from hard to soft water matters. Fish cannot endure a chnage
of more than 50% differnce when going from water than is "softer";
that is, less dissolved solids.

I have the opposite problem and it *IS* a problem because I will lose fish
unless I acclimate them for several hours. Acclimate them from the store
water that averages around 6.8 to 7.2 to my water which can be as high as
8.2 at times with a hardness well under my usual 300.

4) Gasping at the surface is a sign of ammonia poisoning through
"old tank syndrome".

I know that but there is NO AMMONIA in my tanks. There are also too many
large water changes for any "old tank syndrome" problems. I can't get fish
to go from the lower PH and softer water of the LFSs to my hard alkaline
water without acclimating them for several hours. Ammonia is not an issue.
If I just put them in my tanks I loose too many over the first week or so.
No other fish *GASP* but the new ones. Do you think I enjoy acclimating
them for hours if I could just dump them into my Q tank? The Q tank gets
the same constant water changes the other tanks do because elderly platys
and snails keep the cycle going.

Ammonia is very very toxic in neutral or
alkaline water, but harmless in acid water.

I repeat, there is no ammonia or nitrite in my tanks. My water is very hard
and very alkaline. The store waters are soft and around neutral if not
slightly acid.

Old tanks, over time
become acidic; when fresh water is added the pH goes up and
all that ammonia becomes very toxic very quickly. Fish
excrete ammonia through their gills and when they can not
because theres too much ammonia in the water, they gasp at
the surface and often die.

Please stop guessing.

No offense intended but please stop assuming you know the conditions of my
water and the water of my LFSs. Do you actually think I would see fish
gasping and not start doing some ammonia and nitrite tests? They never do
this gasping after several hours of acclimation.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Koi-Lo" wrote in message
...
Moments before spontaneously combusting Richard Sexton at
was heard to say:

In article ,
Koi-Lo wrote:

"Flash Wilson" wrote in message
...
I am constantly impressed by the resilience of fish.
I could only keep half of their pH 6 or below water, and had to
top it up with pH 8 from the tap. So much for all this "only
change 0.1pH at a time"...
============
I think NetMax (correct me if I'm wrong) said it's the other
dissolved things in the water and not the PH itself that kills them
if there's a difference. I know if I don't acclimate fish from
certain stores where the PH is low and the water is soft to my water
with a high PH and high alkalinity, they will often die. They gasp
at the surface before dying. Sometimes it takes a few days for them
to die. Whether it's the PH difference or other things in the water
I have no idea......

Holy **** wher do I begin to unravel these distorted half truths
and heresay?

I said I *THOUGHT* it was Max.

1) It was Me, not Max, referrng to JJ. Scheels documentation
on this subject in "Rivulins of the Old World".

2) He asserted pH doesn't matter. Going from soft to hard water
doesn't matter.

I thought I said above: "...and not the PH itself that kills them."

3) Going from hard to soft water matters. Fish cannot endure a chnage
of more than 50% differnce when going from water than is "softer";
that is, less dissolved solids.

I have the opposite problem and it *IS* a problem because I will lose fish
unless I acclimate them for several hours. Acclimate them from the store
water that averages around 6.8 to 7.2 to my water which can be as high as
8.2 at times with a hardness well under my usual 300.

4) Gasping at the surface is a sign of ammonia poisoning through
"old tank syndrome".

I know that but there is NO AMMONIA in my tanks. There are also too many
large water changes for any "old tank syndrome" problems. I can't get
fish to go from the lower PH and softer water of the LFSs to my hard
alkaline water without acclimating them for several hours. Ammonia is not
an issue. If I just put them in my tanks I loose too many over the first
week or so. No other fish *GASP* but the new ones. Do you think I enjoy
acclimating them for hours if I could just dump them into my Q tank? The
Q tank gets the same constant water changes the other tanks do because
elderly platys and snails keep the cycle going.

Ammonia is very very toxic in neutral or
alkaline water, but harmless in acid water.

I repeat, there is no ammonia or nitrite in my tanks. My water is very
hard and very alkaline. The store waters are soft and around neutral if
not slightly acid.

Old tanks, over time
become acidic; when fresh water is added the pH goes up and
all that ammonia becomes very toxic very quickly. Fish
excrete ammonia through their gills and when they can not
because theres too much ammonia in the water, they gasp at
the surface and often die.

Please stop guessing.

No offense intended but please stop assuming you know the conditions of my
water and the water of my LFSs. Do you actually think I would see fish
gasping and not start doing some ammonia and nitrite tests? They never
do this gasping after several hours of acclimation.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o


I think the situation (forgeries, trolls, troll-targets & troll-followers)
are getting on our nerves. Let's get back to aquaria and let this thread
end )
--
www.NetMax.tk

On Wed, 8 Mar 2006 13:29:21 -0500, "NetMax"
wrote:

"Koi-Lo" wrote in message
...
Moments before spontaneously combusting Richard Sexton at
was heard to say:

In article ,
Koi-Lo wrote:

"Flash Wilson" wrote in message
...
I am constantly impressed by the resilience of fish.
I could only keep half of their pH 6 or below water, and had to
top it up with pH 8 from the tap. So much for all this "only
change 0.1pH at a time"...
============
I think NetMax (correct me if I'm wrong) said it's the other
dissolved things in the water and not the PH itself that kills them
if there's a difference. I know if I don't acclimate fish from
certain stores where the PH is low and the water is soft to my water
with a high PH and high alkalinity, they will often die. They gasp
at the surface before dying. Sometimes it takes a few days for them
to die. Whether it's the PH difference or other things in the water
I have no idea......

Holy **** wher do I begin to unravel these distorted half truths
and heresay?

I said I *THOUGHT* it was Max.

1) It was Me, not Max, referrng to JJ. Scheels documentation
on this subject in "Rivulins of the Old World".

2) He asserted pH doesn't matter. Going from soft to hard water
doesn't matter.

I thought I said above: "...and not the PH itself that kills them."

3) Going from hard to soft water matters. Fish cannot endure a chnage
of more than 50% differnce when going from water than is "softer";
that is, less dissolved solids.

I have the opposite problem and it *IS* a problem because I will lose fish
unless I acclimate them for several hours. Acclimate them from the store
water that averages around 6.8 to 7.2 to my water which can be as high as
8.2 at times with a hardness well under my usual 300.

4) Gasping at the surface is a sign of ammonia poisoning through
"old tank syndrome".

I know that but there is NO AMMONIA in my tanks. There are also too many
large water changes for any "old tank syndrome" problems. I can't get
fish to go from the lower PH and softer water of the LFSs to my hard
alkaline water without acclimating them for several hours. Ammonia is not
an issue. If I just put them in my tanks I loose too many over the first
week or so. No other fish *GASP* but the new ones. Do you think I enjoy
acclimating them for hours if I could just dump them into my Q tank? The
Q tank gets the same constant water changes the other tanks do because
elderly platys and snails keep the cycle going.

Ammonia is very very toxic in neutral or
alkaline water, but harmless in acid water.

I repeat, there is no ammonia or nitrite in my tanks. My water is very
hard and very alkaline. The store waters are soft and around neutral if
not slightly acid.

Old tanks, over time
become acidic; when fresh water is added the pH goes up and
all that ammonia becomes very toxic very quickly. Fish
excrete ammonia through their gills and when they can not
because theres too much ammonia in the water, they gasp at
the surface and often die.

Please stop guessing.

No offense intended but please stop assuming you know the conditions of my
water and the water of my LFSs. Do you actually think I would see fish
gasping and not start doing some ammonia and nitrite tests? They never
do this gasping after several hours of acclimation.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o


I think the situation (forgeries, trolls, troll-targets & troll-followers)
are getting on our nerves. Let's get back to aquaria and let this thread
end )

May it rest in peace. (Please?)

-- Mister Gardener

I repeat, there is no ammonia or nitrite in my tanks.

If that were actually true, you would have no algae at all. What
food do you suppose that algae grows on?

My water is very hard
and very alkaline. The store waters are soft and around neutral if not
slightly acid.

Same here. I just dump them in. No losses.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
I repeat, there is no ammonia or nitrite in my tanks.

If that were actually true, you would have no algae at all.

I still get a reading of zero on both. I would have sick and dying
goldfish, platy's, ottos and plecos if I had measurable amounts of ammonia
and or nitrites in my tanks. I haven't lost even one little otto. All are
thriving and visibly growing, especially the plecos.

What
food do you suppose that algae grows on?

I will assume it grabs the ammonia before it's converted or immediatly after
since I get a zero on Ammonia and nitrite both. Nitrate stays around 20 ppm
(no matter how many plants I've added) so I assume the plants and whatever
algae are in these tanks are keeping the ammonia down to zero. However I
can't stop them from producing ammonia.

My water is very hard
and very alkaline. The store waters are soft and around neutral if not
slightly acid.

Same here. I just dump them in. No losses.

No thanks. I'll take the safe route I've been taking and acclimate them for
a zero death rate. I have to go by my own experiences.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria groups.
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Flash Wilson" wrote in message
...
I am constantly impressed by the resilience of fish.

I had to move a tank at the weekend in a hurry.

I squashed a cardinal between the net and the tank which left
it temporarily stunned Never mind, into the bag it plopped...

I could only keep half of their pH 6 or below water, and had to
top it up with pH 8 from the tap. So much for all this "only
change 0.1pH at a time"... there was no way to get the internal
filter running until the tank was refilled.

And how are the fish in their temporary home? They are absolutely
fine! It's been three days and they seem right as rain.

They are a strange bunch to start with, 2 year old cardinals and
a blind angel, and they are obviously a tough lot!

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

Here it's a case of do what I say and not what I do ;~). Once acclimated,
fish are quite tough, but those rules don't apply to newbies with
non-acclimated fish, so we try to stay quiet about how resilient they can
become. I've seen fish cheerfully survive all sorts of horrors (which I
shouldn't repeat). The only difference is whether they were healthy &
acclimated to start with, or not.

In regards to the pH difference, I'd be more worried about exposing them to
a sudden difference in water hardness, and going from hard to soft is worse.
You went from soft to hard (if anything), which would just cause some rapid
breathing for a while. In regards to the symptoms of water shock, I find it
manifests itself within about 3 days, so you sound like you're sailing
through ).
--
www.NetMax.tk