Suggestions on cycling my new 20 gal aquarium

I recently acquired a new 20 gal aquarium and transferred three small
goldfish and 1 male betta.

I know some of you will curse me for this combination, but I wanted to
get these fish out of their cramped old quarters and into a more
comfortable tank.

Fish are completely healthy and show no aggression towards each other.


A little about my tank, its a long 20 gal with Fluval 250. I use
Biomax media and carbon in the canister. Water is CRYSTAL clear and
the fish happily swim around. I feed once a day and only enough that
the fish eat. Hardly ANY food ever reaches the gravel.

In those 3 weeks I had changed the water once (50%) and rinsed the
components in the canister.

Using Jungle Quick Dip test strips I tested every other day or so for
three weeks
pH 6.8
KH 40
GH 150
Nitrites 0-.5
Nitrates 0


This past weekend I had to leave for 3 days. When I came back the
tests read
pH 6.8
KH 40 ppm
GH 150 ppm
Nitrites 10+ ppm
Nitrates 0 ppm

I immediately did a 50% water change and for the past week have done
50% water change very day. The Nitrites have gone down considerable
but still rest at 3.0 ppm

Is this okay? Will nitrates start kicking in soon? I am conditioning
the water with Amquel with all water changes. I added a small amount (
2 tsp) of Aquarium salt to help the fish with the Nitrite stress.

I need some comments from people who are experienced in cycling new
tanks.

Osteole wrote:
I recently acquired a new 20 gal aquarium and transferred three small
goldfish and 1 male betta.

I know some of you will curse me for this combination, but I wanted to
get these fish out of their cramped old quarters and into a more
comfortable tank.

Fish are completely healthy and show no aggression towards each other.


A little about my tank, its a long 20 gal with Fluval 250. I use
Biomax media and carbon in the canister. Water is CRYSTAL clear and
the fish happily swim around. I feed once a day and only enough that
the fish eat. Hardly ANY food ever reaches the gravel.

In those 3 weeks I had changed the water once (50%) and rinsed the
components in the canister.

Using Jungle Quick Dip test strips I tested every other day or so for
three weeks
pH 6.8
KH 40
GH 150
Nitrites 0-.5
Nitrates 0


This past weekend I had to leave for 3 days. When I came back the
tests read
pH 6.8
KH 40 ppm
GH 150 ppm
Nitrites 10+ ppm
Nitrates 0 ppm

I immediately did a 50% water change and for the past week have done
50% water change very day. The Nitrites have gone down considerable
but still rest at 3.0 ppm

Is this okay? Will nitrates start kicking in soon? I am conditioning
the water with Amquel with all water changes. I added a small amount (
2 tsp) of Aquarium salt to help the fish with the Nitrite stress.

I need some comments from people who are experienced in cycling new
tanks.

First of all, get the Betta out of there NOW.
They have completly different requirements than Goldies do.
To cycle with fish (there are better ways now) you must be doing water
changes weekly.
You didn't mention the size of the Goldies.
Goldies put out a great deal more waste than most fish do, so require
more water changes, much more room (tank size) than other fish of their
size (they grow quite large), and need cooler temps than a Betta
requires.
I realize you said "3 small" Goldies, but one 20g will barely be fine
for one Goldy.
If these are Comets or common (feeder types), your looking at about 16"
long each.
The fancy ones, about 8" long each. However, Goldies have an enormous
body mass so it's not like you can house them in a tiny tank for long
at all.
Their growth will be stunted. No, this does not mean that a fish will
grow to the size of it's tank, it means it's internal organs are
stunted and the fish will die much, much sooner.
Goldies have an average lifespan of 20 yrs.
The Betta will soon be nipped to pieces by the Goldies soon enough.
You really need to get it out of there and into another tank that is
kept between 78-80*f.
No, a bowl will not do for a Betta. This is basically like keeping a
Great Dane in a closet.
Just because it will survive , doen't make it right.
Now I realize I've just tossed a ton of bricks on your head all at
once, but the sooner you remidy this situation the better it will be
for all those poor fish.
Baby Goldies will be fine in a 29g for a short time, but if you plan on
keeping them, prepare for a much, much larger tank quite soon.
There is more to keeping fish than them just getting along.
Please stick around and get the help you need.
Keep up on those water changes and rinse out the filter pad in old tank
water.
Don't forget to vacuum the gravel after a few weeks of this tank
cycling.
Don't worry about losing the nitrifying bacteria, as it's not in the
water. You're also not going to lose it by vacuuming the gravel. These
bacteria are sticky and adhere to all surfaces of the tank.

The goldfish are VERY small, less than one inch. I got them at
Wal-Mart over a year ago for my son who fell in love with them. I'll
have to get some pictures.

A comment about the combo, my goldfish are not aggresive, they are very
peaceful and DO NOT fight with the betta (and vice versa). They have
lived in the tank together for over 4 weeks now and both kinds of fish
have wonderful healthy looking fins. I have never heated my water and
really don't intend on buying a heater. Most of the fish I intend on
getting for this tank will be those who like temps in the 68-75
range...normal house temperature.

I have read ALOT about tank conditions on the internet and many
people/sites have commented about the ability for betta's to
comfortably live in temperature of water the range I suggested above.

Thanks for your comments Tynk, I knew there would be people (as I
already made that disclaimer) who would complain about my initial fish
combination. I do not intend on keeping the goldfish in there, that's
just all I had to work with at the time.

Can anyone make any suggestions concerning the Nitrogen numbers?

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 00:14:21 -0500, Osteole wrote:

The goldfish are VERY small, less than one inch. I got them at
Wal-Mart over a year ago for my son who fell in love with them. I'll
have to get some pictures.

A comment about the combo, my goldfish are not aggresive, they are very
peaceful and DO NOT fight with the betta (and vice versa). They have
lived in the tank together for over 4 weeks now and both kinds of fish
have wonderful healthy looking fins. I have never heated my water and
really don't intend on buying a heater. Most of the fish I intend on
getting for this tank will be those who like temps in the 68-75
range...normal house temperature.

I have read ALOT about tank conditions on the internet and many
people/sites have commented about the ability for betta's to
comfortably live in temperature of water the range I suggested above.

Thanks for your comments Tynk, I knew there would be people (as I
already made that disclaimer) who would complain about my initial fish
combination. I do not intend on keeping the goldfish in there, that's
just all I had to work with at the time.

Can anyone make any suggestions concerning the Nitrogen numbers?

Planted or Artificial? The goldies are hearty and will adapte to many
water conditions (within reasonable limits). Bettas do well in waters
above 75*F, with their pH levels hovering around 7.0 (neutral).

As Tynk mentioned...the waste from the goldies will come into play with
your community selection. They produce vast amounts and, as such, you can
witness ammonia spikes and nitrite levels rise as a result. You'll need
to perform the water changes religiously on a weekly basis.
HTH


--
.... Save The Planet For Another Day -

"Osteole" wrote in news:1154236461.544228.310490
@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:


Can anyone make any suggestions concerning the Nitrogen numbers?

You're going to just have to wait. There are some products out there that
claim they seed your tank and cycle it faster, but how effective they are
is questionable. Recently completed research has demonstrated that some of
the bacteria long held responsible for removing nitrite from aquaria do not
even exist in detectable amounts in aquariums and in fact totally
unexpected bacteria are doing the work.

Do you have your filter from the old setup? Can you run the two filters in
tandem? Can you port some of the biological medium from the old setup into
your new one?

Those options will all help removing the nitrite from your new setup
faster, but you are still going to have to continue to wait and water
change when the levels begin to climb too high.

Aerating the water as much as possible will help both the fish and the
developing bacteria culture. Salt will help detoxify the nitrite and the
fish's body will do the rest. Fish can produce more hemoglobin in response
to the effects of nitrite, but if the concentrations climb too high too
fast the resulting stress on the fish's health can be quite serious.

Goldfish are high waste producers so it is going to be an uphill battle.
You would have done better to cycle the tank with just the Betta and then
moved the goldfish over afterwards--not that I'm advocating keeping them
together long term. Both goldfish and Bettas are hardy, but to get either
of these fish to thrive long term you'll have to provide for their
individual needs.

Osteole wrote:
The goldfish are VERY small, less than one inch. I got them at
Wal-Mart over a year ago for my son who fell in love with them. I'll
have to get some pictures.

A comment about the combo, my goldfish are not aggresive, they are very
peaceful and DO NOT fight with the betta (and vice versa). They have
lived in the tank together for over 4 weeks now and both kinds of fish
have wonderful healthy looking fins. I have never heated my water and
really don't intend on buying a heater. Most of the fish I intend on
getting for this tank will be those who like temps in the 68-75
range...normal house temperature.

I have read ALOT about tank conditions on the internet and many
people/sites have commented about the ability for betta's to
comfortably live in temperature of water the range I suggested above.

Thanks for your comments Tynk, I knew there would be people (as I
already made that disclaimer) who would complain about my initial fish
combination. I do not intend on keeping the goldfish in there, that's
just all I had to work with at the time.

Can anyone make any suggestions concerning the Nitrogen numbers?\

Osteole,
Ot doesn't make a difference that the Betta and Goldies are not
fighting, they need different water conditions!
If you do not plan on getting a heater, please give the Betta to
somebody that can properly keep him.
They need to be kept between 78-80*f. 68-75* is too cold for that
Betta, but fine for the Goldies.
By having cold water species and warm water species in the same tank
you cannot do right for either both or one of them.
In your situation, the Betta.
Your numbers are showing that the Goldies are putting out a lot of
waste and you need to do more water changes.
You said these Goldies are less than one inch and that you've had them
over a year....
If this is true then they are already stunted.
Stunting their growth does damage to their internal organs, therefore
making them die much sooner.
What size tank were these fish in before they were in the 20g?

Osteole wrote:

I have read ALOT about tank conditions on the internet and many
people/sites have commented about the ability for betta's to
comfortably live in temperature of water the range I suggested above.

Well, "many people/sites" are WRONG! You ask for advice from this group and
then reject any suggestion that you are doing things wrong. "Many people"
here have told you that. Either pay attention or take up some other hobby.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

"Osteole" wrote in message
oups.com...
The goldfish are VERY small, less than one inch. I got them at
Wal-Mart over a year ago for my son who fell in love with them. I'll
have to get some pictures.

They're only and INCH long and are over a year old? I breed GF so can tell
you from experience there is something very wrong here. GF are an inch long
when less than a few months old and can reach 6" or more by their first
birthday. These are either stunted from starvation or suffering some
disease process. Are you sure they're goldfish and not gold platys?

A comment about the combo, my goldfish are not aggresive, they are very
peaceful and DO NOT fight with the betta (and vice versa). They have
lived in the tank together for over 4 weeks now and both kinds of fish
have wonderful healthy looking fins. I have never heated my water and
really don't intend on buying a heater. Most of the fish I intend on
getting for this tank will be those who like temps in the 68-75
range...normal house temperature.

But you've already OVERLOADED the tank of the gold-fish are indeed
goldfish-carp! Healthy GF can easily reach a foot in length and are heavy
waste producers and big eaters. Fancy GF are as heavy, just not as long.

I have read ALOT about tank conditions on the internet and many
people/sites have commented about the ability for betta's to
comfortably live in temperature of water the range I suggested above.

Thanks for your comments Tynk, I knew there would be people (as I
already made that disclaimer) who would complain about my initial fish
combination. I do not intend on keeping the goldfish in there, that's
just all I had to work with at the time.

Can anyone make any suggestions concerning the Nitrogen numbers?

See above. I think you have platys not GF. My baby GF, born this spring
are already over 1" long. The fry from last year, kept for breeding, are 8"
long.........
--
KL....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

"Osteole" wrote in message
ups.com...
I recently acquired a new 20 gal aquarium and transferred three small
goldfish and 1 male betta.

This isn't a good mix. GF are not tropical fish and grow quite large.
Three are one too many for a 20g tank. You should remove the betta to a
home of his own.

I know some of you will curse me for this combination, but I wanted to
get these fish out of their cramped old quarters and into a more
comfortable tank.

Fish are completely healthy and show no aggression towards each other.


A little about my tank, its a long 20 gal with Fluval 250. I use
Biomax media and carbon in the canister.

You don't need the carbon unless you're trying to remove medications or
something specific.

Water is CRYSTAL clear and
the fish happily swim around. I feed once a day and only enough that
the fish eat. Hardly ANY food ever reaches the gravel.

Young GF need more than one feeding a day, and a varied diet unless they
have access to natural food such as insects and algae.

In those 3 weeks I had changed the water once (50%) and rinsed the
components in the canister.

small snip

I immediately did a 50% water change and for the past week have done
50% water change very day. The Nitrites have gone down considerable
but still rest at 3.0 ppm

You can try water changed more often. That's what I would do.

Is this okay? Will nitrates start kicking in soon? I am conditioning
the water with Amquel with all water changes. I added a small amount (
2 tsp) of Aquarium salt to help the fish with the Nitrite stress.

I only use Sodium Thiosulfate so wont comment on Amquel.

I need some comments from people who are experienced in cycling new
tanks.

Since I have several tanks running at all times I just switch a seeded
filter from a cycled tank. If that fails - my routine is to add salt as you
did when I see nitrites. I do water changes as needed to keep the nitrites
(or ammonia) as low as possible. Meanwhile I leave the gravel and filter
alone until the cycle is complete. DO remove any food on the gravel if you
do see any there the GF missed. Unless grossly overfed, GF will go over the
gravel for every dropped morsel of food.
--
KL....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

"Osteole" wrote in message
ups.com...
I recently acquired a new 20 gal aquarium and transferred three small
goldfish and 1 male betta.

I know some of you will curse me for this combination, but I wanted to
get these fish out of their cramped old quarters and into a more
comfortable tank.

Fish are completely healthy and show no aggression towards each other.


A little about my tank, its a long 20 gal with Fluval 250. I use
Biomax media and carbon in the canister. Water is CRYSTAL clear and
the fish happily swim around. I feed once a day and only enough that
the fish eat. Hardly ANY food ever reaches the gravel.

In those 3 weeks I had changed the water once (50%) and rinsed the
components in the canister.

Using Jungle Quick Dip test strips I tested every other day or so for
three weeks
pH 6.8
KH 40
GH 150
Nitrites 0-.5
Nitrates 0


This past weekend I had to leave for 3 days. When I came back the
tests read
pH 6.8
KH 40 ppm
GH 150 ppm
Nitrites 10+ ppm
Nitrates 0 ppm

I immediately did a 50% water change and for the past week have done
50% water change very day. The Nitrites have gone down considerable
but still rest at 3.0 ppm

Is this okay? Will nitrates start kicking in soon? I am conditioning
the water with Amquel with all water changes. I added a small amount (
2 tsp) of Aquarium salt to help the fish with the Nitrite stress.

I need some comments from people who are experienced in cycling new
tanks.


Osteole....This is long sorry....

I know with every one yelling, its unlikely you are going to get what you
wanted to know, and I think from what you said you did not intend on keeping
these fish together long term but wanted to get them out of what ever
situation they were in before (which was what? asking because of the size of
the GF), in the mean time you are worried about the cycle an nitrites being
high because you don't want the fish to die, which is good.
Getting this out of the way first, Tynk keeps betta's and cares and knows a
lot about them ... just as Koi-lo keeps goldfish (all kinds) and cares and
knows a lot about them, which is the reason you got the reaction you did
from both of them, just to let you know. If you wanted to know anything
about either of those fish they would be the two you would talk to.........
About the carbon, there is carbon that removes ammonia, which I use when I
set up a new tank, does it help, I don't know but I use it and it don't hurt
anything, most carbon is used for taking meds out of the water after its
been treated, if you have it in leave it there, it wont hurt anything. Do
you deal with a LFS or have a friend with a fish tank that has been set up
for some time, if so ask them for some filter media (floss) rocks, that will
help if your tank is not cycled.
I don't know about amquel helping, some say yes some say no, I use it in my
fry tank w/ water changes, but none of my big tanks. Some one was talking
before about it giving false readings I think on some test brands, if you do
a search you might be able to find the info.
I have fancy goldfish and regular feeder goldfish, koi-lo is right about the
size, I have had the feeders which I think is what you got, I have had mine
for six months and mine are huge way over 1 inch, if you have any pics see
if you can post them. One thing about Goldfish they are dirty, I do more
cleaning in my GF tank then any other tank I have, and I have plenty of
tanks, water changes help a lot when anything is wrong, so keep doing them.
As far as the betta and GF, the main problem is water quality.....as I am
sure you know GF poop a lot, the water quality is not good for the betta who
will end up, maybe not right away but will end up with fin rot.
When you do take the betta out here is a couple ideas, at my local store
they sell critter keepers they are two and half gallons, cost about 8$, I
use a sponge filter which is about 5$, that's not a bad set up for them, I
don't use a heater because with out one the tank stays over 80 degrees, but
they have little heaters that are cheap for little tanks. They have eclipse
tanks that come with everything they are not that expensive either. If you
have any community tanks, betta's get along ok with some fish as long as
they share the same conditions, and that will some times work also. One
more thing as long as you have those guys sharing a house/tank, watch
because GF tend to eat fast and bettas eat slow, well slower then GF, just
make sure the betta is getting enough of the food. You can also give your GF
some pea's, veggies, maybe koi-lo can give you some ideas as far as what
else you can give them and help figuring out why they are not growing as
fast as they should be.
Please don't stop posting, for the most part people here are nice, they will
disagree sometimes but do what to help. I understand when you post and
everyone jumps on you its hard to take anything they say into consideration,
and its easy to get defensive I have myself when it has happened
nikki