Losing fish...any ideas appreciated

"Daniel Morrow" wrote in message
...

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .

"Mean_Chlorine" wrote in message
...
Thusly "Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk Spake Unto
All:

The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature
fluctuations -

No. Not a chance. Any temperature within the 20C - 30C range is
completely acceptable, even long-term, for any species commonly sold
as aquarium fish. Regardless of whatever other impression you may have
got from books/various sites.

He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that is
supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and
parasites
in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So off
to
give
it a try along with another water change.

I'm not a big fan of blindly administering medications to aquaria.
More often than not they mess up the balance and kill filter bacteria,
even if it says on the box they don't.

Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........

Well, that's hopeful at least. Viral and bacterial diseases do "burn
themselves out" in aquaria, which is fortunate as they rarely respond
to medication.

Agreed. This is why we went for this so called "gentle" tonic option. I
hate
putting anything in the tanks other than water conditioner and have only
done so in the past when putting in Ich treatment where I had no choice.

I'm very much watching this space....there were no symptoms on the
others
until it was too late

I think the temp thing was a stab in the dark....he doesn't know either.
We
have had some wild temperature fluctuations in the UK over the past week
ranging from early 80F to only hitting above 50F daytime and colder at
night. But, this is not a tank I would expect to fall foul of this
especially as there are two tanks in there and the other one is fine. I
worry constantly about the one in the conservatory but we seem to have
the
temp sussed both in the room and tank.....

I guess it is wait and see....
Gill



Hi Gill! I've been reading this thread and really feel sad for you and
your
lost loved ones. I hope your son doesn't give up on this hobby. I am
rooting
for you and want to say you really have your hobby together good. I think
you've done everything right and that an almost random disease issue is
the
problem rather than questioning if you changed the water enough because I
think you change the water good. I have been reading your posts since I
started on this newsgroup and find that you're very intelligent. Good luck
and sincerest best wishes to you and your son and pets, Later!


Hi Daniel,
Thanks for your very kind posting. I showed it to Matthew and he very much
appreciated it as well :-)

Unfortunately we lost another barb this morning :-( I haven't been able to
do anything tonight as I didn't get home from work until about an hour
ago.....but we do now have an action plan which brightened Matt up.

We are going to do some fish shifting. The 5 gall in the kitchen currently
holds 2 platy fry (my Betta's buddies), the Betta and 3 otos. The otos will
move to my main community tank where I already have 3 who are doing such a
fantastic cleaning job I've been thinking of buying more anyway. The Betta
and the 2 Platys will move into Matthew's 30gall tank for the short-term (I
don't want the Betta permanently out of the kitchen as I've grown so fond of
him).....it is a very gentle tank the most agressive fish in there being two
pearl gouramis who have little time for anyone other than eachother.
Providing the remaining two barbs and mollie keep on going - they will go
into the 5 gall where I can keep an eye on them better.

The tank itself will be stripped down and bleached. All plants and substrate
will go. Even the filter will be sacrificed - I will start cycling a similar
filter which I just happen to have around in one of the other tanks. We are
then off on a shopping trip for him to select the substrate, plants and
decor for his revamped tank (on my plastic). We will then reavaluate the
location of fish, depending on the survival rate of the 3 remaining fish and
set the tank up as if it was new.

I really hope the remaining 3 make it....they looked good tonight - the male
Barb was chasing his remaining woman and the Mollie was just looking for
food. But then they always look good the night before.....I hope the one day
delay doesn't result in bad news but I could do nothing about that.....

Hope my plan works....

Thanks again
Gill

"Dick" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 30 May 2005 17:28:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:


"Dick" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:27:16 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:


"Derek Benson" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:

Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank
and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check
this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked
the
water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates
are
at
5.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last
August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4
Rosy
Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes
are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until
now.

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next.
If
the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could
move
them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think
of
for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of
the
other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I
can
do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Thanks
Gill


If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite
like
Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal
parasites,
worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
these.

I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at
the
bottom of the tank.

So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I
don't
pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out
of
the tap.

If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as
I
understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names
are,
will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want
in
the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites.
These
evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not
clean
enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing
water
more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there
where
there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.

If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are
already
in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would
do
is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
killed/disinfected by the bleach.

-Derek

What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight
question
mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think of
anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and
again
a
couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in the
others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I
normally
have
so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there -
like
Hydrogen Sulphide.....

My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already
disallusioned
and
thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I
hope I
can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....

Gill


If he was of the age, would you keep an ex girl friend around because
he once really liked her? Why not keep the tank for your own interest
and let him move on? In my fast growing years (as in height) I moved
through many interests. Here I am 60 years later picking up on one of
those interests.

dick

I totally agree with you. I had a word with him about his tanks and
suggested even consolidating them into just one tank to make the
maintenance
easier for him (me in reality). The answer I got was "you're just after
one
of my tanks". He wants to keep going he's just fed up with losing the
fish -
and I can't say that I blame him.

Here's hoping for happier times
Gill


How about buying a new tank to replace the jinx, then you could
experiment to your heart's desire and boy luv would have the
excitement of setting up a new tank? (It is exciting setting up a new
tank, isn't it? Well, it can be if the recent experience has robbed
him of its joy.)

dick

I've come up with a way of decomissioning the tank that should not
compromise anyones safety - although I will lose my Betta from the Kitchen
to another tank for a few days.

Providing we have no more losses before tomorrow night - lost another Barb
this morning :-( I will put the plan in action tomorrow when I get back from
work.

We will then tear down this "jinx tank" and start it all over.....I have a
pump/filter hanging about that is the same size which I will start cycling
in one of the "healthy" tanks as soon as I can remember where I put it.

Matt is quite excited about starting the tank again.....so here is hoping.
He's been promised a trip with my "plastic" to refurb it. Afterall it was
his fault I got into this hobby in the first place :-)

Gill

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .

"Daniel Morrow" wrote in message
...

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .

"Mean_Chlorine" wrote in message
...
Thusly "Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk Spake Unto
All:

The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature
fluctuations -

No. Not a chance. Any temperature within the 20C - 30C range is
completely acceptable, even long-term, for any species commonly sold
as aquarium fish. Regardless of whatever other impression you may
have
got from books/various sites.

He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that
is
supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and
parasites
in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So
off
to
give
it a try along with another water change.

I'm not a big fan of blindly administering medications to aquaria.
More often than not they mess up the balance and kill filter
bacteria,
even if it says on the box they don't.

Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........

Well, that's hopeful at least. Viral and bacterial diseases do "burn
themselves out" in aquaria, which is fortunate as they rarely
respond
to medication.

Agreed. This is why we went for this so called "gentle" tonic option.
I
hate
putting anything in the tanks other than water conditioner and have
only
done so in the past when putting in Ich treatment where I had no
choice.

I'm very much watching this space....there were no symptoms on the
others
until it was too late

I think the temp thing was a stab in the dark....he doesn't know
either.
We
have had some wild temperature fluctuations in the UK over the past
week
ranging from early 80F to only hitting above 50F daytime and colder at
night. But, this is not a tank I would expect to fall foul of this
especially as there are two tanks in there and the other one is fine.
I
worry constantly about the one in the conservatory but we seem to have
the
temp sussed both in the room and tank.....

I guess it is wait and see....
Gill



Hi Gill! I've been reading this thread and really feel sad for you and
your
lost loved ones. I hope your son doesn't give up on this hobby. I am
rooting
for you and want to say you really have your hobby together good. I
think
you've done everything right and that an almost random disease issue is
the
problem rather than questioning if you changed the water enough because
I
think you change the water good. I have been reading your posts since I
started on this newsgroup and find that you're very intelligent. Good
luck
and sincerest best wishes to you and your son and pets, Later!


Hi Daniel,
Thanks for your very kind posting. I showed it to Matthew and he very much
appreciated it as well :-)

Unfortunately we lost another barb this morning :-( I haven't been able
to
do anything tonight as I didn't get home from work until about an hour
ago.....but we do now have an action plan which brightened Matt up.

We are going to do some fish shifting. The 5 gall in the kitchen currently
holds 2 platy fry (my Betta's buddies), the Betta and 3 otos. The otos
will
move to my main community tank where I already have 3 who are doing such a
fantastic cleaning job I've been thinking of buying more anyway. The Betta
and the 2 Platys will move into Matthew's 30gall tank for the short-term
(I
don't want the Betta permanently out of the kitchen as I've grown so fond
of
him).....it is a very gentle tank the most agressive fish in there being
two
pearl gouramis who have little time for anyone other than eachother.
Providing the remaining two barbs and mollie keep on going - they will go
into the 5 gall where I can keep an eye on them better.

The tank itself will be stripped down and bleached. All plants and
substrate
will go. Even the filter will be sacrificed - I will start cycling a
similar
filter which I just happen to have around in one of the other tanks. We
are
then off on a shopping trip for him to select the substrate, plants and
decor for his revamped tank (on my plastic). We will then reavaluate the
location of fish, depending on the survival rate of the 3 remaining fish
and
set the tank up as if it was new.

I really hope the remaining 3 make it....they looked good tonight - the
male
Barb was chasing his remaining woman and the Mollie was just looking for
food. But then they always look good the night before.....I hope the one
day
delay doesn't result in bad news but I could do nothing about that.....

Hope my plan works....

Thanks again
Gill


Your welcome Gill! Good fortune to you!

On Tue, 31 May 2005 22:46:39 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:


"Dick" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 30 May 2005 17:28:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:


"Dick" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:27:16 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:


"Derek Benson" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:

Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank
and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check
this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked
the
water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates
are
at
5.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last
August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4
Rosy
Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes
are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until
now.

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next.
If
the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could
move
them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think
of
for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of
the
other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I
can
do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Thanks
Gill


If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite
like
Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal
parasites,
worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
these.

I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at
the
bottom of the tank.

So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I
don't
pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out
of
the tap.

If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as
I
understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names
are,
will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want
in
the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites.
These
evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not
clean
enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing
water
more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there
where
there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.

If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are
already
in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would
do
is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
killed/disinfected by the bleach.

-Derek

What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight
question
mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think of
anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and
again
a
couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in the
others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I
normally
have
so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there -
like
Hydrogen Sulphide.....

My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already
disallusioned
and
thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I
hope I
can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....

Gill


If he was of the age, would you keep an ex girl friend around because
he once really liked her? Why not keep the tank for your own interest
and let him move on? In my fast growing years (as in height) I moved
through many interests. Here I am 60 years later picking up on one of
those interests.

dick

I totally agree with you. I had a word with him about his tanks and
suggested even consolidating them into just one tank to make the
maintenance
easier for him (me in reality). The answer I got was "you're just after
one
of my tanks". He wants to keep going he's just fed up with losing the
fish -
and I can't say that I blame him.

Here's hoping for happier times
Gill


How about buying a new tank to replace the jinx, then you could
experiment to your heart's desire and boy luv would have the
excitement of setting up a new tank? (It is exciting setting up a new
tank, isn't it? Well, it can be if the recent experience has robbed
him of its joy.)

dick

I've come up with a way of decomissioning the tank that should not
compromise anyones safety - although I will lose my Betta from the Kitchen
to another tank for a few days.

Providing we have no more losses before tomorrow night - lost another Barb
this morning :-( I will put the plan in action tomorrow when I get back from
work.

We will then tear down this "jinx tank" and start it all over.....I have a
pump/filter hanging about that is the same size which I will start cycling
in one of the "healthy" tanks as soon as I can remember where I put it.

Matt is quite excited about starting the tank again.....so here is hoping.
He's been promised a trip with my "plastic" to refurb it. Afterall it was
his fault I got into this hobby in the first place :-)

Gill


I have my fingers crossed. Action plans are good! Excitement is good!
Doing together is good! Losses are bad! :- ( Trip with plastic is
fun!

Hooray for Matt! He helped you find this wonderful way to spend time
and money and to share with each other.

I have a motorhome. After one bad trip, lots of things went wrong, I
told a friend, moaning about all the bad events. He responded that it
is great to have problems, they make for interesting tales. Easy
trips are not talked about or remembered.

dick



dick

"Dick" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 May 2005 22:46:39 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:


"Dick" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 30 May 2005 17:28:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:


"Dick" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:27:16 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:


"Derek Benson" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:

Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's
tank
and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal
check
this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked
the
water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates
are
at
5.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last
August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4
Rosy
Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water
changes
are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until
now.

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do
next.
If
the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could
move
them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can
think
of
for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any
of
the
other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what
I
can
do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Thanks
Gill


If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the
info
you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite
like
Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal
parasites,
worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of
the
fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird,
white
and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all
of
these.

I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or
at
the
bottom of the tank.

So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want
to
say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I
don't
pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0
out
of
the tap.

If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works,
as
I
understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which
can
cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names
are,
will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you
want
in
the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites.
These
evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not
clean
enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing
water
more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel
in
this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the
tank? I
ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there
where
there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.

If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the
tank
will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are
already
in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I
would
do
is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this
tank
completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up
the
gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
killed/disinfected by the bleach.

-Derek

What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight
question
mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think
of
anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and
again
a
couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in
the
others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I
normally
have
so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there -
like
Hydrogen Sulphide.....

My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already
disallusioned
and
thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I
hope I
can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....

Gill


If he was of the age, would you keep an ex girl friend around
because
he once really liked her? Why not keep the tank for your own
interest
and let him move on? In my fast growing years (as in height) I
moved
through many interests. Here I am 60 years later picking up on one
of
those interests.

dick

I totally agree with you. I had a word with him about his tanks and
suggested even consolidating them into just one tank to make the
maintenance
easier for him (me in reality). The answer I got was "you're just
after
one
of my tanks". He wants to keep going he's just fed up with losing the
fish -
and I can't say that I blame him.

Here's hoping for happier times
Gill


How about buying a new tank to replace the jinx, then you could
experiment to your heart's desire and boy luv would have the
excitement of setting up a new tank? (It is exciting setting up a new
tank, isn't it? Well, it can be if the recent experience has robbed
him of its joy.)

dick

I've come up with a way of decomissioning the tank that should not
compromise anyones safety - although I will lose my Betta from the
Kitchen
to another tank for a few days.

Providing we have no more losses before tomorrow night - lost another
Barb
this morning :-( I will put the plan in action tomorrow when I get back
from
work.

We will then tear down this "jinx tank" and start it all over.....I have
a
pump/filter hanging about that is the same size which I will start
cycling
in one of the "healthy" tanks as soon as I can remember where I put it.

Matt is quite excited about starting the tank again.....so here is
hoping.
He's been promised a trip with my "plastic" to refurb it. Afterall it was
his fault I got into this hobby in the first place :-)

Gill


I have my fingers crossed. Action plans are good! Excitement is good!
Doing together is good! Losses are bad! :- ( Trip with plastic is
fun!

Hooray for Matt! He helped you find this wonderful way to spend time
and money and to share with each other.

I have a motorhome. After one bad trip, lots of things went wrong, I
told a friend, moaning about all the bad events. He responded that it
is great to have problems, they make for interesting tales. Easy
trips are not talked about or remembered.

dick



dick

It has to be said that I never considered how much fish would open up the
world of communication outside of my own circle of friends - this is another
plus :-)

On the downside I lost one of my Rusty cichlids today (and actually a yellow
lab last week) - the difference with those losses is I know why they died
(the yellow lab never grew and got thinner) the Rusty had become quite
chubby like she had a lot of eggs and from the look of her it could have
been a spawning incident - either that or she was bloated or had
parasites.... I guess it has just been a very bad fish fortnight :-(

On the plus side the two Rosy Barbs and one remaining Mollie are looking
fine for now - action plan still in place I will get them moved asap. The 3
fry in the Malawi tank are around 1cm big now...and I can almost identify
one of them from it's markings....my main community tank is finally doing
well with the algae war (unlike the Malawi that I have to clean 3 times a
week at the moment - don't think it worries the fish though). And yes, Matt
is excited about his new venture. Pluses outweigh the negatives but it is
still hard to lose fish without understanding why...

Gill

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .

"Elaine T" wrote in message
. com...
Derek Benson wrote:
On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:


Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank
and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check
this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the
water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are
at
5.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy
Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes
are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If
the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move
them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of
for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can
do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Thanks
Gill



If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite like
Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal parasites,
worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
these.

I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at the
bottom of the tank.

So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I don't
pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out of
the tap.

If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as I
understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names are,
will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want in
the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites. These
evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not clean
enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing water
more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there where
there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.

If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are already
in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would do
is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
killed/disinfected by the bleach.

-Derek

I've seen drop-dead-itis caused by particularly virulent forms of
flexibacter. It spreads through water or when fish pick at a dead fish,
and get an internal infection. As you said, bacteria can be present in
tanks and bloom in nutrient rich gravel. The nice thing about the
permanganate is that it does a light, fish-friendly oxidation similar to
bleach. It will reduce the numbers of bacteria in the tank so the
fishes immune systems can fight them off again.

You may be right that a tear-down and disinfection is better, using
filter media from a different tank to jump-start the filter. It's a lot
of work and stress on the fish, and I was hoping that using a light
permanganate treatment along with a good cleaning would avoid Gill's
having to do that.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

I ran all of the ideas past Matthew (my son) who owns the tank in
question -
young but very sensible - reads and researches a lot. He does not want to
tear down the tank - mainly because he suspects that I might steal it if
he
does and won't believe any reassurances....

Equally he does not want to move the fish into his 30gall just in case it
is
anything infectious. (Quite sensible IMO)

We did a 30% change tonight and added salt and Liquisil General Tonic
(Interpet) which is supposed to tackle "background levels of of bacteria,
fungus and parasites
in aquariums"

Permanganate will be the next step.....hopefully we won't lose any more
and
need to take it (fingers crossed)

Thanks everyone

Gill


Update...we've had enough...tank gets torn down Friday....

Gill

"Dick" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 May 2005 22:46:39 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:


"Dick" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 30 May 2005 17:28:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:


"Dick" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:27:16 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:


"Derek Benson" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:

Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's
tank
and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal
check
this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked
the
water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates
are
at
5.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last
August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4
Rosy
Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water
changes
are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until
now.

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do
next.
If
the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could
move
them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can
think
of
for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any
of
the
other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what
I
can
do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Thanks
Gill


If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the
info
you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite
like
Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal
parasites,
worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of
the
fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird,
white
and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all
of
these.

I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or
at
the
bottom of the tank.

So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want
to
say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I
don't
pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0
out
of
the tap.

If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works,
as
I
understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which
can
cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names
are,
will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you
want
in
the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites.
These
evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not
clean
enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing
water
more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel
in
this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the
tank? I
ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there
where
there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.

If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the
tank
will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are
already
in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I
would
do
is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this
tank
completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up
the
gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
killed/disinfected by the bleach.

-Derek

What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight
question
mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think
of
anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and
again
a
couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in
the
others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I
normally
have
so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there -
like
Hydrogen Sulphide.....

My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already
disallusioned
and
thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I
hope I
can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....

Gill


If he was of the age, would you keep an ex girl friend around
because
he once really liked her? Why not keep the tank for your own
interest
and let him move on? In my fast growing years (as in height) I
moved
through many interests. Here I am 60 years later picking up on one
of
those interests.

dick

I totally agree with you. I had a word with him about his tanks and
suggested even consolidating them into just one tank to make the
maintenance
easier for him (me in reality). The answer I got was "you're just
after
one
of my tanks". He wants to keep going he's just fed up with losing the
fish -
and I can't say that I blame him.

Here's hoping for happier times
Gill


How about buying a new tank to replace the jinx, then you could
experiment to your heart's desire and boy luv would have the
excitement of setting up a new tank? (It is exciting setting up a new
tank, isn't it? Well, it can be if the recent experience has robbed
him of its joy.)

dick

I've come up with a way of decomissioning the tank that should not
compromise anyones safety - although I will lose my Betta from the
Kitchen
to another tank for a few days.

Providing we have no more losses before tomorrow night - lost another
Barb
this morning :-( I will put the plan in action tomorrow when I get back
from
work.

We will then tear down this "jinx tank" and start it all over.....I have
a
pump/filter hanging about that is the same size which I will start
cycling
in one of the "healthy" tanks as soon as I can remember where I put it.

Matt is quite excited about starting the tank again.....so here is
hoping.
He's been promised a trip with my "plastic" to refurb it. Afterall it was
his fault I got into this hobby in the first place :-)

Gill


I have my fingers crossed. Action plans are good! Excitement is good!
Doing together is good! Losses are bad! :- ( Trip with plastic is
fun!

Hooray for Matt! He helped you find this wonderful way to spend time
and money and to share with each other.

I have a motorhome. After one bad trip, lots of things went wrong, I
told a friend, moaning about all the bad events. He responded that it
is great to have problems, they make for interesting tales. Easy
trips are not talked about or remembered.

dick



dick

You stirred up all sorts of memories with you "motorhome" analogy.....last
year we rented a mobile home in France - ferry cancelled, 12 hour drive to
get there once we got an alternative, had to return a day early....great
place - daughter sick for most of the time :-( but not a holiday we will
forget in a hurry....all others blend into one. (those with no events)...and
yes when the times were good (daughter got better, Matt's birthday and
presenting him with the photos of his newly fishless set up tank which he
had wanted for years) absolutely priceless. Plus when discussing with my
American colleagues at work their absolute horror that Europeans go to a
"Trailer Park" for their holidays and find it fun....the differences in
culture are always a source of fascination both for me and them (and boy we
have long conversations on this)

Being philosphical (and yes a bit depressed hence my latest posting) .....
keeping fish reflects life - there are ups and downs.....the pluses outweigh
the minuses....but sometimes you just need to rally (as Matt has learnt).
And it is really great to know that there are people out there that care
enough to respond :-)

Gill

Hi Gil,

Jumped on this late as I've just this week started setting up tanks again
after an 8-year absence due to work.
My questions and comments are woven below; bear in mind I'm VERY
old-fashioned about aquaria:

Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at 5.

For most freshwater fish in general, and Mollies specifically are you adding
about 1/2 to 1 tsp of salt per gallon to the water? It greatly helps in
controlling
bacteria problems and helps the fish maintain their "slime coat" easier.
For lots of live plants, I'd probably go with the 1/2 tsp per gallon.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.

Why would you do more than maybe 10% water changes monthy, if that
much? I would, personaly, find 20%+ weekly to be way too stressful on
both fish and plants. What type of filter are you using?

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Wild-ass-guess here that the fish are being over-stressed by all the water
changes disturbing their enviroment, the water doesn't have time to "age"
and promote healthy fish.
Go with the very cheap and old-time salt fix and see how it works for you.

Please email me with the results.

Mack

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:49:33 GMT, "LaVerne Storey"
wrote:

Hi Gil,

Jumped on this late as I've just this week started setting up tanks again
after an 8-year absence due to work.
My questions and comments are woven below; bear in mind I'm VERY
old-fashioned about aquaria:

Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at 5.

For most freshwater fish in general, and Mollies specifically are you adding
about 1/2 to 1 tsp of salt per gallon to the water? It greatly helps in
controlling
bacteria problems and helps the fish maintain their "slime coat" easier.
For lots of live plants, I'd probably go with the 1/2 tsp per gallon.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.

Why would you do more than maybe 10% water changes monthy, if that
much? I would, personaly, find 20%+ weekly to be way too stressful on
both fish and plants. What type of filter are you using?

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Wild-ass-guess here that the fish are being over-stressed by all the water
changes disturbing their enviroment, the water doesn't have time to "age"
and promote healthy fish.
Go with the very cheap and old-time salt fix and see how it works for you.

Please email me with the results.

Mack




Hi Mack,

You just prove my opinion that there are many ways to maintain our
fish. I hold an opposite view to you. I change 20% weekly. I have 5
tanks ranging from 75 to 29 to 10 gallons and have followed this
partial water change procedure for over 2 years.

While Mollies like some salt, not all fish do and I believe some
plants don't like salt. One size does not fit all! g

dick

Hi Mack,

You just prove my opinion that there are many ways to maintain our
fish. I hold an opposite view to you. I change 20% weekly. I have 5
tanks ranging from 75 to 29 to 10 gallons and have followed this
partial water change procedure for over 2 years.

While Mollies like some salt, not all fish do and I believe some
plants don't like salt. One size does not fit all! g

dick

I agree completely, we are all "trained" by past successes and experiences
and apply what we have learned differently.
Even my heaviest planted tanks always had about 1/2 tsp salt added per
gallon
since "forever" so I always offer that up as my opinion.
Frequent water changes work for many people, and I know a few Discus
breeders who swear by them, whereas I swear at them as a pain in the butt
unless actually needed.

Through high school back in the mid 70's, I had one 10-gallon tank that
never received a water change or cleaning for 2 years.
It was heavily planted, mostly java moss, and was stocked with a family of
whiteclouds ( 8 initially) and restocked occasionally with daphnia.
It also had a strong growth of algae for the fish to nibble on.

It had a tight fitting cover and gentle back filter powered by an airpump.
(sort of a motor-less power filter I could change sponge from outside the
tank)
Rinsing and replacing the sponge was it for maintenance other than a monthly
scraping the algae off the front of the tank so I could see in clearly.

I did several water top-ups over the months to replace evaporation losses,
but no water was ever changed or removed. The white clouds were fed flake
foods and daphnia when available, and the daphnia were breeding slowly in
the tank
from those who survived feeding.

Over the two years I had it setup, I netted out over 400 baby whiteclouds to
hand
out to friends, or feed the excess to my killies.

I wouldn't try this with discus in a million years, but my bettas loved a
very
similiar tank setup and so did my angelfish who bred several times on a
piece
of slate leaned up against the back of the tank under the water flow from
the
filter.

Like I said in my first post, I'm old fashioned about fish and tanks.
Set it up as natural as I can and leave it alone.

Mack