Using a canister filter and an overflow for a sump?

Ruben,

As George pointed out, although it would work, the cannister filter is
not really designed to do that kind of work (moving water from one
level to another, especially with the height I think you're talking
about.) I would hate to hear of your pump burning up from excess
backpressure caused by the height differential and the filtration
combined (though some would argue this point since most cannister
filters use magnetic drive impellers and are thereby non positive
displacement pumps). Generally speaking, the cannister filter is
designed as a sealed system to return water to the same height that the
syphon draws from. As such, the pump is designed only to deal with the
back pressure of any build up in the filter media. That being said, if
you did set up the cannister to draw from the sump and return to the
tank (assuming that the sump is in the stand, or a good 4 feet
different in water levels), the decrease in the water flow could cause
anaerobic conditions in the filter as well as working the pump harder
than it was designed to. To get the maximum effect from the cannister
filter you should have it draw and return from the same water. But,
you can have it draw from and return to the sump. In this design it
would not act as much as a physical but more as a biological filter
(assuming that your over flow has a prefilter on it). Long story
short, I would buy a return pump designed to do what you're looking
for; lift water. As long as you're not returning to the tank faster
than your overflow box can handle, the water will balance out. If you
have questions on how to set the water height in the sump or tank so
that power failure will not cause a flood, let me know. Also, do you
have a system in place to keep the syphon from breaking in your
overflow box? (This can burn a return pump as well)... Best of luck...
Russ



George Patterson wrote:
RubenD wrote:

What do you think the drawbacks are if there's any?

Well, if I understand you correctly, you're going to have a 10 gallon tank on
the floor, the cannister syphon will be in the 10 gallon, and the cannister will
be pumping water up to the main tank. Cannister filters aren't really designed
to act as a pump, so I would check with the manufacturer to see how high a water
column yours can handle (in other words, how different can the height of the
intake and discharge tubes be).

Also keep in mind that the cannister filter will serve as a great syphon to pull
water out of your main tank if the power should fail. Make sure the discharge
tube is high enough in the main tank to prevent a disaster.

George Patterson
All successes in conservation are temporary. All defeats are permanent.

The only way you could burn up such a pump, would be for
it to overheat, so as long as enough water is going
through it to keep it from overheating, it won't burn up.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

I agree Wayne, as long as there is sufficient water flow the heat will
dissipate. The problem comes about when a non-positive displacement
pump (doesn't push out all the water it pulls back in) gets enough back
pressure that the water in the impeller housing just recirculates. I'm
just cautioning that the canister filter may not be designed to lift
the water that far, but I don't know the model and therefore can't
research the maximum total head and resultant flow rate.

I would hate to hear of your pump burning up from excess
backpressure caused by the height differential and the filtration
combined (though some would argue this point since most cannister
filters use magnetic drive impellers and are thereby non positive
displacement pumps).

On Oct 27, 11:38 am, Wayne Sallee wrote:
The only way you could burn up such a pump, would be for
it to overheat, so as long as enough water is going
through it to keep it from overheating, it won't burn up.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

RubenD wrote:

Everyone knows buying a sump kit gets very expensive. However, the
benefits are great, from increasing the water volume to hiding all the
equipment.

I was thinking on using a canister filter to pull the water from a 10G tank
to the main tank and a hanging overflow to the 10G.

What do you think the drawbacks are if there's any?

Ruben

There are two points to consider for the work a pump has to
do. First, and foremost, is lift. Second is piping friction.

On piping friction: If you ar going to buy 8000 ft of pipe for
a heating system for building, then you want to buy the smallest
diameter pipe you can get away with to save big bucks. Thus
friction loss calculation are critical. However, If you are
running 7 ft of tubing from a Aquarium sump ...go one size larger
than the outlet of the pump, and friction loss almost disappears.

Then, there is lift: The major consideration for the work a
pump has to do is "lift". Lift is just how high the pump has to
raise the water, measured from the surface of the lower pond of
water to the surface of the higher pond of water. So, to measure
lift, hold your tape measure vertically, measuring from the
surface of the water in the sump, to the surface of the water in
the tank. Three feet(?) three point five(?), this is the lift,
and is what you will compare to the charts that come with "lift"
pumps.

You will find a for instance here

http://www.pondliner.com/PM5.htm

on this page there are flows listed for each rise in feet, for
the particular pump. This refers to the distance in feet from the
top of the sump to the top of the aquarium. notice the flow drops
off as the height increases. This is a "lift" pump.


then check out he
http://www.pondenterprises.com/fluval/fluve1.html

You will notice that they have a lot to say about the
advantages of their filter (prolly mostly true), but lift isn't
mentioned. This pump is designed to take its source from the tank
(not a sump) and return it to the tank (same elevation ), so
there is NO lift to consider. This is what is referred to as a
"circulator" pump.


There are lots of Googlable pages on pumps and filters, and
you will find the difference between the two types;

Canister filter ( and power heads for the most part ) are listed
at "one" flow rate only, This is because, no lift has to be
considered. circulator pumps.

Lift pumps on the other hand, i.e. Mag drive submersible pumps
(and what's that other one that mounts outside the sump? I can't
find it right now). These pumps are listed with a chart the shows
"performance" drop off at increasing lift. lift pumps.

The last thing to look at is the wattage. Yer stuck with what
ever it is,if you buy the pump to do the right job. Canisters
and power heads, 15watts 20watts 30 watts. Comparable flow lift
pumps 40watts, 50watts, 60watts.

Bottom line, yer canister filter is not designed to lift water.
And flow will drop disappointingly if it is applied to a lifting
job.


Hope this helps
Paul

pausto wrote on 10/27/2006 7:41 PM:
...go one size larger
than the outlet of the pump, and friction loss almost disappears.

As noted, it's always good to oversize the plumbing, in
fact, aquarium pump manufactures almost always, when
measuring water flow, use larger sized tubing than the
output of the pump. It is almost always assumed that the
user will be using a larger diameter hose than the output
of the pump.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

* pausto wrote, On 10/27/2006 6:41 PM:
[SNIP]

Bottom line, yer canister filter is not designed to lift water.
And flow will drop disappointingly if it is applied to a lifting
job.


Hope this helps
Paul

Yes! It helps me. I better set my canister on a stand....it's on the floor
below my tank.

Thanks,
Cindy

Cindy wrote:

Yes! It helps me. I better set my canister on a stand....it's on the
floor below my tank.

If the input and the output are at the same level, the filter isn't lifting the
water. The force of the inlet water coming down balances out the force required
to push the water back up.

George Patterson
All successes in conservation are temporary. All defeats are permanent.

* George Patterson wrote, On 10/28/2006 10:31 AM:
Cindy wrote:

Yes! It helps me. I better set my canister on a stand....it's on the
floor below my tank.

If the input and the output are at the same level, the filter isn't
lifting the water. The force of the inlet water coming down balances out
the force required to push the water back up.
..

OH...okay then! This helps too! Glad you pointed that out. I don't have a
CLUE about plumbing.

Cindy

It won't fit, besides I already have a couple of 10g tanks.

Ruben


"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Can you fit a 20 gallon tank in there instead of a 10? a
20 gallon is 12.5 inches wide.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



RubenD wrote on 10/26/2006 6:27 PM:
It's 46G Bowfront tank. I'm currently using a canister filter.


"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
ink.net...
What size tank do you have?
Do you already have the canister filter?

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



RubenD wrote on 10/26/2006 5:21 PM:
Everyone knows buying a sump kit gets very expensive. However, the
benefits are great, from increasing the water volume to hiding all
the
equipment.

I was thinking on using a canister filter to pull the water from a 10G
tank
to the main tank and a hanging overflow to the 10G.

What do you think the drawbacks are if there's any?



Ruben

Thanks for the info. As far as an overflow, is it possible to build one
cheaper instead of buying one?

I don't know, it seem like a piece of plastic with a hose attached, am I
wrong?

TIA

Ruben



"RubenD" wrote in message
et...
Everyone knows buying a sump kit gets very expensive. However, the
benefits are great, from increasing the water volume to hiding all the
equipment.

I was thinking on using a canister filter to pull the water from a 10G
tank
to the main tank and a hanging overflow to the 10G.

What do you think the drawbacks are if there's any?



Ruben