Now I'm really worried!

Oh dear,

Following on from the Sad Day thread:

I lost two of my SAE's and two more Neon Tetras suddenly this evening, just
when I thought everything was okay.

I didn't understand why after changing the water two days in a row (100%
changed in two days) and getting my chemistry right and back to stable
levels, why my fish were still passing away.

Some of you may remember I posted a while back about a Serpae Tetra female
that had what appeared to be an eaten away lower jaw due to "fungus"? (read
on because it's a major sign of what I now suspect is happening)

Well all of the Neons that have passed away have had this white-ish band
across their head from gill to gill.

The band appears seemingly over night, then they gasp at the surface, become
disorientated and then die. My SAE's that passed tonight had darker bands
from gill to gill and one of them was being chased literally to death by a
rampant Hockey Stick Tetra who just wouldn't leave it alone.

Considering that several factors have occurred of late in my tank, such as
high temperature (30 C), dirty substrate (only discovered this two days ago
and have vacuumed it clean each day since), low dissolved oxygen (a fairly
rapid raise in hardness and CO2 combined with the high temperature), stress
(trying to catch 5 BATs and disturbing one and all in the process - also
there has been some inter-species, and in-species (being bothered by mates)
spats) and a pretty big fluctuation in water quality, and slight over
feeding it seems, over the last 3 weeks or so;

I have come to the conclusion that what is now really killing my fish of
could very well be *Columnaris flexibacter*.

All the conditions have been there for it to develop and some of the dead
fish have shown mild external symptoms of it (the bands on the heads, the
dissolved lower jaw of the Serpae, and in the case of the bigger of the
SAE's that died - rapid respiration, lethargy and a complete change in
behavior several hours before and leading up to death).

The two Swords that died a few days ago showed no symptoms what-so-ever -
they just died very quickly, and they were both young and visibly very
healthy.

As Columnaris is gram-negative and contagious in warm de-oxygenated water, I
can state that I am *very worried* it's going to wipe the entire fish
population in my tank out.

The treatment I believe, and I need the more experienced people in the
groups to help me out here with this, is to lower the water temperature,
oxygenate, siphon gravel daily (it reportedly can grow on excess food and
waste on the gravel), change water daily and as a final resort dose with
Potassium Permanganate or Sulfur compounds? Does this sound right?

I have to act quickly on this or it's going to wipe the whole tank out, if
it is C.f..

I honestly can't see it being anything other than this because my water and
gravel are right on spec.

I am also guessing this is the price you pay too for not home quarantining
fish before they go into a tank? or are these bacteria always present in the
water column waiting for the right conditions?

If the worst happens and the entire population gets sick and dies, what is
the procedure for the tank itself?

Would you advise breaking the entire tank down, steralising everything
(especially filters and gravel), dosing the plants in Potassium
Permanganate/Bleach/H2O2 or something?

Oh boy, please help if you can - I think I am in big trouble and I'm about
to lose all of my fish

Many thanks in advance,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

HI Oz,

A good old fall back that I always keep to hand is Malachite Green.

Try the site http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/ It's very good but always read
all the instructions as some things are not mixable or may need a drop
in temp etc. One thing that is often recommended but oft forgotten is
to turn off UV lighting.

Hope that's of some help.

Old Salt

Go to the University of Florida website and read for yourself on the
preferred treatment for columinaris (sp?) its potassium permanganate.
Thjis problem is perhaps the loargest problem any pond or fish keeper
or fish farmer is going to encounter in this part. And PP is the
approved preferred treatment in addition to antibiotic feeds.......

check it out at:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu

Look for the articles on:
Fungal Diseases of Fish (Fact Sheet VM97)
Use of PP to Control External Infections of Ornamental Fish (Fact
Sheet FA-37)
Columnaris Disease ( SRAC pub #479)
Potassium Permanganate in Fish Ponds (Fact Sheet FA-23)

Oh and nowhere doe sit mention any warnings as to Ph requirements, but
the use of MG does have warnings about PH as does other meds) Ph is
not much of a concern with PP)

Other than just visual signs have you scoped your fish to make a firm
diagnosis..........If your going by seat of the pants diagnosis, you
may well be in left field, but PP would still be applicable in most
all but say for Ick, where a copper of MG/F would be the best choice)

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

Roy~ wrote:
Go to the University of Florida website and read for yourself on the
preferred treatment for columinaris (sp?) its potassium permanganate.
Thjis problem is perhaps the loargest problem any pond or fish keeper
or fish farmer is going to encounter in this part. And PP is the
approved preferred treatment in addition to antibiotic feeds.......

check it out at:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu

Look for the articles on:
Fungal Diseases of Fish (Fact Sheet VM97)
Use of PP to Control External Infections of Ornamental Fish (Fact
Sheet FA-37)
Columnaris Disease ( SRAC pub #479)
Potassium Permanganate in Fish Ponds (Fact Sheet FA-23)

Oh and nowhere doe sit mention any warnings as to Ph requirements, but
the use of MG does have warnings about PH as does other meds) Ph is
not much of a concern with PP)

Other than just visual signs have you scoped your fish to make a firm
diagnosis..........If your going by seat of the pants diagnosis, you
may well be in left field, but PP would still be applicable in most
all but say for Ick, where a copper of MG/F would be the best choice)

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

I can't seem to get anywhere at that website. I keep getting this message

java.rmi.ConnectException: Connection refused to host: 128.227.96.39;
nested exception is: java.net.ConnectException: Connection refused at
sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPEndpoint.newSocket(TCPEnd point.java:567) at

firefox 1.0
any ideas?

"miskairal" wrote in message
...

I can't seem to get anywhere at that website. I keep getting this message

java.rmi.ConnectException: Connection refused to host: 128.227.96.39;
nested exception is: java.net.ConnectException: Connection refused at
sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPEndpoint.newSocket(TCPEnd point.java:567) at

firefox 1.0
any ideas?

I'm using Forefox 1.0.1 and just got through. I couldn't last night though.

Try again with 1.0.1?

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

"Old Salt" wrote in message
oups.com...
HI Oz,

A good old fall back that I always keep to hand is Malachite Green.

Try the site http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/ It's very good but always read
all the instructions as some things are not mixable or may need a drop
in temp etc. One thing that is often recommended but oft forgotten is
to turn off UV lighting.

Hope that's of some help.

Hi,

I am in Australia and the ambient temperatures here are keeping my water up
at 28-30 degrees C, and there isn't a lot I can do to lower it.

I am going to commission a 50L plastic storage container as a Q/H tank
because I can cool 50L of water easier than 220L.

I'll go up to the LFS today and see what they have.

Thanks for your advice.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

In article .com,
Old Salt wrote:
HI Oz,

A good old fall back that I always keep to hand is Malachite Green.

All I've ever managed to do with that stuff is kill fish. I have much
better luck with Acriflavine. Not quite as toxic; contains no copper.

One of the problems with copper (besides being letah to invertebrates)
is it precipitates out into copper carbonate. So you need to add more.
then when the pH goes more acidic it all comes back into solution at once.

Nasty stuff.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

"Ozdude" wrote in message
u...
Oh dear,

Following on from the Sad Day thread:

I lost two of my SAE's and two more Neon Tetras suddenly this evening,
just
when I thought everything was okay.

I didn't understand why after changing the water two days in a row (100%
changed in two days) and getting my chemistry right and back to stable
levels, why my fish were still passing away.

Some of you may remember I posted a while back about a Serpae Tetra female
that had what appeared to be an eaten away lower jaw due to "fungus"?
(read
on because it's a major sign of what I now suspect is happening)

Well all of the Neons that have passed away have had this white-ish band
across their head from gill to gill.

The band appears seemingly over night, then they gasp at the surface,
become
disorientated and then die. My SAE's that passed tonight had darker bands
from gill to gill and one of them was being chased literally to death by a
rampant Hockey Stick Tetra who just wouldn't leave it alone.

Considering that several factors have occurred of late in my tank, such as
high temperature (30 C), dirty substrate (only discovered this two days
ago
and have vacuumed it clean each day since), low dissolved oxygen (a fairly
rapid raise in hardness and CO2 combined with the high temperature),
stress
(trying to catch 5 BATs and disturbing one and all in the process - also
there has been some inter-species, and in-species (being bothered by
mates)
spats) and a pretty big fluctuation in water quality, and slight over
feeding it seems, over the last 3 weeks or so;

I have come to the conclusion that what is now really killing my fish of
could very well be *Columnaris flexibacter*.

All the conditions have been there for it to develop and some of the dead
fish have shown mild external symptoms of it (the bands on the heads, the
dissolved lower jaw of the Serpae, and in the case of the bigger of the
SAE's that died - rapid respiration, lethargy and a complete change in
behavior several hours before and leading up to death).

The two Swords that died a few days ago showed no symptoms what-so-ever -
they just died very quickly, and they were both young and visibly very
healthy.

As Columnaris is gram-negative and contagious in warm de-oxygenated water,
I
can state that I am *very worried* it's going to wipe the entire fish
population in my tank out.

The treatment I believe, and I need the more experienced people in the
groups to help me out here with this, is to lower the water temperature,
oxygenate, siphon gravel daily (it reportedly can grow on excess food and
waste on the gravel), change water daily and as a final resort dose with
Potassium Permanganate or Sulfur compounds? Does this sound right?

I have to act quickly on this or it's going to wipe the whole tank out, if
it is C.f..

I honestly can't see it being anything other than this because my water
and
gravel are right on spec.

I am also guessing this is the price you pay too for not home quarantining
fish before they go into a tank? or are these bacteria always present in
the
water column waiting for the right conditions?

If the worst happens and the entire population gets sick and dies, what is
the procedure for the tank itself?

Would you advise breaking the entire tank down, steralising everything
(especially filters and gravel), dosing the plants in Potassium
Permanganate/Bleach/H2O2 or something?

Oh boy, please help if you can - I think I am in big trouble and I'm about
to lose all of my fish

Many thanks in advance,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith




Not experienced, even remotely, but just done some research....from what I
can see Potassium Permanganate is not the way to go - it can become more
toxic the higher the pH level. Have you considered using Melafix/Pimafix? I
also read that something containing Phenoxyethanol can help (don't know if
it is contained in Melafix/Pimafix) - apparently it can be found in some
proprietary medicines...Also read that an antibiotic such as oxytetracycline
might be needed

Apart from that it is water changes, gravel cleaning, trying to keep the
temp down and the water oxygenated as you say....

Flexibacter columnaris apparently is quite commonly present in aquarium
water, on dead organic matter and even on healthy fish skin....

Gill

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
Not experienced, even remotely, but just done some research....from what I
can see Potassium Permanganate is not the way to go - it can become more
toxic the higher the pH level. Have you considered using Melafix/Pimafix?
I
also read that something containing Phenoxyethanol can help (don't know if
it is contained in Melafix/Pimafix) - apparently it can be found in some
proprietary medicines...Also read that an antibiotic such as
oxytetracycline
might be needed

Apart from that it is water changes, gravel cleaning, trying to keep the
temp down and the water oxygenated as you say....

Flexibacter columnaris apparently is quite commonly present in aquarium
water, on dead organic matter and even on healthy fish skin....

Hi Gill,

I am off to the LFS today to ask their advice too. They probably have the
chemical resolutions but I know they don't carry medicated foods.

I read about MelaFix/PimaFix myself, on a few sites, but it seems it doesn't
really rid the tank of it. I went to AP's web site and checked out the FAQ
on these products and I like it that they are natural and don't affect
snail, plants or pH, and there is a small possibility I may be able to use
these two products, but there is some discussion around on the forum boards
(particularly Cichlid and Betta boards) that say it doesn't really fix the
problem.

I find this hard to believe personally, as I know what Melaluca (Tea Tree)
can do for human bacterial infections, and I have no reason to think it
won't do the same for fish.

Roy has stated that Flex is present always in everyone's tank, and
considering that fact, it makes sense that if a fish becomes stressed
through what-ever reason it's natural defense to it is going to break down.

I am shocked at how filthy my gravel was and I can't begin to stress how
important it is you get a really good gravel cleaner that suits your tank. I
was using a cleaner suitable for a small tank and when I bought the new 22"
one I'd say it sucked up 400% more junk on it's first use that the little
one just wasn't able to pull up out of the substrate.

Any way, I'll visit the LFS and I also am going to remove all of my plants
from their plastic pots full of clay kitty litter and replant them into the
substrate proper. I am suspicious that the clay in the litter is part of my
bacterial problem because I lifted a pot out a while ago and noticed at the
line where gravel and litter met there was a thin bright green band of what
looked like algae - I suspect now it isn't - it's probably bacterial.

I will wait a while to do this though unless it (Flex) gets so bad it gets
out of control. I don't think I should stress the fish if I can help it - I
need them to build up as much natural immunity/ability as possible right
now - there is war on!

Regards,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

"Ozdude" wrote in message
...

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
Not experienced, even remotely, but just done some research....from what
I
can see Potassium Permanganate is not the way to go - it can become more
toxic the higher the pH level. Have you considered using
Melafix/Pimafix?
I
also read that something containing Phenoxyethanol can help (don't know
if
it is contained in Melafix/Pimafix) - apparently it can be found in some
proprietary medicines...Also read that an antibiotic such as
oxytetracycline
might be needed

Apart from that it is water changes, gravel cleaning, trying to keep the
temp down and the water oxygenated as you say....

Flexibacter columnaris apparently is quite commonly present in aquarium
water, on dead organic matter and even on healthy fish skin....

Hi Gill,

I am off to the LFS today to ask their advice too. They probably have the
chemical resolutions but I know they don't carry medicated foods.

I read about MelaFix/PimaFix myself, on a few sites, but it seems it
doesn't
really rid the tank of it. I went to AP's web site and checked out the FAQ
on these products and I like it that they are natural and don't affect
snail, plants or pH, and there is a small possibility I may be able to use
these two products, but there is some discussion around on the forum
boards
(particularly Cichlid and Betta boards) that say it doesn't really fix the
problem.

I find this hard to believe personally, as I know what Melaluca (Tea Tree)
can do for human bacterial infections, and I have no reason to think it
won't do the same for fish.

Roy has stated that Flex is present always in everyone's tank, and
considering that fact, it makes sense that if a fish becomes stressed
through what-ever reason it's natural defense to it is going to break
down.

I am shocked at how filthy my gravel was and I can't begin to stress how
important it is you get a really good gravel cleaner that suits your tank.
I
was using a cleaner suitable for a small tank and when I bought the new
22"
one I'd say it sucked up 400% more junk on it's first use that the little
one just wasn't able to pull up out of the substrate.

Any way, I'll visit the LFS and I also am going to remove all of my plants
from their plastic pots full of clay kitty litter and replant them into
the
substrate proper. I am suspicious that the clay in the litter is part of
my
bacterial problem because I lifted a pot out a while ago and noticed at
the
line where gravel and litter met there was a thin bright green band of
what
looked like algae - I suspect now it isn't - it's probably bacterial.

I will wait a while to do this though unless it (Flex) gets so bad it gets
out of control. I don't think I should stress the fish if I can help it -
I
need them to build up as much natural immunity/ability as possible right
now - there is war on!

Regards,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith


Hi Oz,

Just one thing, which isn't really important at the moment...I tried taking
the plants out of their pots and got into a total mess (especially with the
clowns digging them up). Also makes it a bit harder when cleaning the
gravel - a job normally reserved for "hubby" as he's got more strength in
his arms than I do these days - plants go everywhere - (wish he was as
vigourous with the vaccuum cleaner in the house - lol)....at least it is
easier to reposition them if they are contained in pots....

When it comes to adding chemicals pH has to be a major concern....chemicals
can react differently depending on whether added to acid, alkaline or
neutral substances. I would research very carefully before going down this
route. Yours is borderline acid/neutral at the moment in the tank and your
tap water is alkaline as far as I can tell from your postings....I'm not a
chemist so I'm not sure of the exact implications of adding the Potassium
Permanganate but I know someone who is...too late to phone them now but I
should be able to talk to them tomorrow if it would help....

If this is always present in the water - which seems to be what everyone is
saying - maybe it is down to treating the symptoms right now to sort the
fish and then taking a step back and review to stopping it happening
again....maybe it isn't possible to get rid of permanently, maybe we all
have it in our tanks..... Anyway see what your LFS says...

Good Luck and best wishes
Gill