Now I'm really worried!

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
I believe Jungle labs makes a proprietary flex cure. (I
use acriflavine which seems to work)

You know what? I use a crystaline water conditioner available here at K-Mart
which contains Acriflavin;

I stopped using it two weeks ago and up until stopping using, apart from the
Female Serpae with the eaten away mouth (most definately Flex) that one
time, I've never had a parasitic or bacterial infection.

It seems when i stopped using it, the tank got sick - it could be just
timing because I really didn't know how dirty my substrate actually was and
I think this was a major contributer. Could be just serendipity.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

Richard Sexton wrote;
"Nonsense. It may be a quick or slow death or the fish may not die at
all".
Oz said his tank was overheating - heat is one of the things that
speeds up Flex. disease, along with hard water (high TDS), and alkaline
water. But, like I said in an earlyer reply, I don't think its Flex.
disease......... Frank

Frank wrote:

The symptoms you gave don't add up to Flex. disease - no white fuzzy
lesions of the mouth or white fuzzy patches scattered over the body! I
would suspect another gram-negative bacterium called Aeromonas - fits
your symptoms better - a secondary bacterial infection as is Flex.
Treated the same as you would treat Flex. disease, sometimes infects at
the same time as Flex. Feeding a medicated food along with adding an
antibiotic to the tank is the best treatment. Tetra's medicated foods
don't work on Flex. disease - get a Waterlife product called Protozin
and Myxazin (medicated food).

Apparently Myxazin and Protozin will no longer be available in Australia.

Ozdude wrote:
Oh dear,

Following on from the Sad Day thread:

I lost two of my SAE's and two more Neon Tetras suddenly this evening, just
when I thought everything was okay.

I didn't understand why after changing the water two days in a row (100%
changed in two days) and getting my chemistry right and back to stable
levels, why my fish were still passing away.

Some of you may remember I posted a while back about a Serpae Tetra female
that had what appeared to be an eaten away lower jaw due to "fungus"? (read
on because it's a major sign of what I now suspect is happening)

Well all of the Neons that have passed away have had this white-ish band
across their head from gill to gill.

The band appears seemingly over night, then they gasp at the surface, become
disorientated and then die. My SAE's that passed tonight had darker bands
from gill to gill and one of them was being chased literally to death by a
rampant Hockey Stick Tetra who just wouldn't leave it alone.

Considering that several factors have occurred of late in my tank, such as
high temperature (30 C), dirty substrate (only discovered this two days ago
and have vacuumed it clean each day since), low dissolved oxygen (a fairly
rapid raise in hardness and CO2 combined with the high temperature), stress
(trying to catch 5 BATs and disturbing one and all in the process - also
there has been some inter-species, and in-species (being bothered by mates)
spats) and a pretty big fluctuation in water quality, and slight over
feeding it seems, over the last 3 weeks or so;

I have come to the conclusion that what is now really killing my fish of
could very well be *Columnaris flexibacter*.

All the conditions have been there for it to develop and some of the dead
fish have shown mild external symptoms of it (the bands on the heads, the
dissolved lower jaw of the Serpae, and in the case of the bigger of the
SAE's that died - rapid respiration, lethargy and a complete change in
behavior several hours before and leading up to death).

The two Swords that died a few days ago showed no symptoms what-so-ever -
they just died very quickly, and they were both young and visibly very
healthy.

As Columnaris is gram-negative and contagious in warm de-oxygenated water, I
can state that I am *very worried* it's going to wipe the entire fish
population in my tank out.

The treatment I believe, and I need the more experienced people in the
groups to help me out here with this, is to lower the water temperature,
oxygenate, siphon gravel daily (it reportedly can grow on excess food and
waste on the gravel), change water daily and as a final resort dose with
Potassium Permanganate or Sulfur compounds? Does this sound right?

I have to act quickly on this or it's going to wipe the whole tank out, if
it is C.f..

I honestly can't see it being anything other than this because my water and
gravel are right on spec.

I am also guessing this is the price you pay too for not home quarantining
fish before they go into a tank? or are these bacteria always present in the
water column waiting for the right conditions?

If the worst happens and the entire population gets sick and dies, what is
the procedure for the tank itself?

Would you advise breaking the entire tank down, steralising everything
(especially filters and gravel), dosing the plants in Potassium
Permanganate/Bleach/H2O2 or something?

Oh boy, please help if you can - I think I am in big trouble and I'm about
to lose all of my fish

Many thanks in advance,

Oz

If you can get it, feed food soaked in dissolved oxytetracycline for 10
days. The advantage of medicated food is that it won't affect your
filter the way PP, acriflavine, or dissolved antibiotics would. I agree
with others that it doesn't sound like flexibacter, but oxytetracycline
is broad-spectrum and good for many fish diseases.

You're already cleaning the tank and keeping the fish in very clean
water, which is the other key for managing a disease.

BTW, chin up! You're beating yourself up unfairly. This can be a
challenging hobby at time and you've been doing your absolute best.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

"Elaine T" wrote in message
om...
If you can get it, feed food soaked in dissolved oxytetracycline for 10
days. The advantage of medicated food is that it won't affect your filter
the way PP, acriflavine, or dissolved antibiotics would. I agree with
others that it doesn't sound like flexibacter, but oxytetracycline is
broad-spectrum and good for many fish diseases.

You're already cleaning the tank and keeping the fish in very clean water,
which is the other key for managing a disease.

BTW, chin up! You're beating yourself up unfairly. This can be a
challenging hobby at time and you've been doing your absolute best.

Thnaks for your encouraging words. I'm not really beating myself up as far
as I can see. It's just one of the many aspects to this hobby. I was a
little astounded that a substrate that *looked healthy* was actually a
festering mess just below the surface.

I've treated with a broad-spectrum tri-suphur and Pima and MelaFix. I am
well aware, and prapared to lose my filter bacteria during this period, but
I have ammonia quelling water conditioner (in an emergency) and a mature
filter sponge set I can restablish (seed) the main tank with pretty quickly
once all the meds are finished with.

I figure if it isn't Flex but it's still a baterial thing then global
cleansing is needed, not just the fish. I just hope what I have done so far
is enough. Lowering the temperature just isn't possible at the moment
because the ambient temperature is so high during the day. I did notice the
heaters come on in the big tank tonight, so I pulled their power, but it
still hasn't dropped below 27C.

Daily gravel cleaning and water changes are the order of the day after the
next three days, for approximately a fortnight and if there is another
outbreak then I will consider shifting all remaining fish to a
holding/Hospital tank, same for the plants, breaking the display tank down
and steralizing everything in it, including the gravel, all filters and
media replacement, and then restarting it with a fishless cycling and re
populate it slowly after the cycle has completed. It's an opportunity to get
it more right than currently, more than anything else.

I have my eye on a 100L cube tank at LFS#1 which can hold the fish
(substrateless to begin with) while I medicate them some more and while the
main tank is being made safe. It may be a little crowded in the holding tank
and some of them may feel a little exposed because the plants will not be in
that tank as they need a seperate steralizing technique. I told you I was
catching MTS

I agree that a diligent cleaning routine is now required and i'm about 70%
there to preventing it happening again.

I see it as more of an opportunity than a problem, truth be known. I feel
for the fish that are dying, but I also have a perspective on that and I
know it's not really my direct intentional doing - more ignorance.

**** happens, and it's just really what you make of it more than it
happening

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

"Ozdude" wrote in message
...

"Elaine T" wrote in message
om...
If you can get it, feed food soaked in dissolved oxytetracycline for 10
days. The advantage of medicated food is that it won't affect your
filter
the way PP, acriflavine, or dissolved antibiotics would. I agree with
others that it doesn't sound like flexibacter, but oxytetracycline is
broad-spectrum and good for many fish diseases.

You're already cleaning the tank and keeping the fish in very clean
water,
which is the other key for managing a disease.

BTW, chin up! You're beating yourself up unfairly. This can be a
challenging hobby at time and you've been doing your absolute best.

Thnaks for your encouraging words. I'm not really beating myself up as far
as I can see. It's just one of the many aspects to this hobby. I was a
little astounded that a substrate that *looked healthy* was actually a
festering mess just below the surface.

I've treated with a broad-spectrum tri-suphur and Pima and MelaFix. I am
well aware, and prapared to lose my filter bacteria during this period,
but
I have ammonia quelling water conditioner (in an emergency) and a mature
filter sponge set I can restablish (seed) the main tank with pretty
quickly
once all the meds are finished with.

I figure if it isn't Flex but it's still a baterial thing then global
cleansing is needed, not just the fish. I just hope what I have done so
far
is enough. Lowering the temperature just isn't possible at the moment
because the ambient temperature is so high during the day. I did notice
the
heaters come on in the big tank tonight, so I pulled their power, but it
still hasn't dropped below 27C.

Daily gravel cleaning and water changes are the order of the day after the
next three days, for approximately a fortnight and if there is another
outbreak then I will consider shifting all remaining fish to a
holding/Hospital tank, same for the plants, breaking the display tank down
and steralizing everything in it, including the gravel, all filters and
media replacement, and then restarting it with a fishless cycling and re
populate it slowly after the cycle has completed. It's an opportunity to
get
it more right than currently, more than anything else.

I have my eye on a 100L cube tank at LFS#1 which can hold the fish
(substrateless to begin with) while I medicate them some more and while
the
main tank is being made safe. It may be a little crowded in the holding
tank
and some of them may feel a little exposed because the plants will not be
in
that tank as they need a seperate steralizing technique. I told you I was
catching MTS

I agree that a diligent cleaning routine is now required and i'm about 70%
there to preventing it happening again.

I see it as more of an opportunity than a problem, truth be known. I feel
for the fish that are dying, but I also have a perspective on that and I
know it's not really my direct intentional doing - more ignorance.

**** happens, and it's just really what you make of it more than it
happening

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith


All of this really emphasises that any changes we make need to be monitored
for the effect that they have on the tank, fish and the balance in
there.....and I've just had the lesson drummed into me (fortunately everyone
in the tank looks happy and healthy at the moment)....

Last weekend I took the Internal Pump out of my Community Tank and put it
into my son's new tank in order to save a "crisis" - external has been
running for over 2 months so I thought this would be OK but I promised
myself I would keep close tabs on my tank but with one thing or another
workwise didn't :-(.

Tested the water today (day earlier than usual) prompted by what's being
going on with Oz - and yep detected ammonia. It's somewhere between 0.6 and
1.2 mg/L - the highest I've ever had. pH is 7.5, nitrite 0 and nitrate 5 -
kicking myself for not testing sooner. Anyway just done a 25% change and
good vacuum of the gravel (not too bad at the front but pretty dirty at the
back where the plants are).

So it's continual monitoring and water changes for the next few days....and
checking out the external pump.

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .

All of this really emphasises that any changes we make need to be
monitored
for the effect that they have on the tank, fish and the balance in
there.....and I've just had the lesson drummed into me (fortunately
everyone
in the tank looks happy and healthy at the moment)....

It brings me to a generalised method: "small changes, one at a time and
monitor".


Last weekend I took the Internal Pump out of my Community Tank and put it
into my son's new tank in order to save a "crisis" - external has been
running for over 2 months so I thought this would be OK but I promised
myself I would keep close tabs on my tank but with one thing or another
workwise didn't :-(.

The great thing about these "accidents" though is that we learn and move and
on. It's only a fool that keep making the same mistakes

Tested the water today (day earlier than usual) prompted by what's being
going on with Oz - and yep detected ammonia. It's somewhere between 0.6
and
1.2 mg/L - the highest I've ever had. pH is 7.5, nitrite 0 and nitrate 5 -
kicking myself for not testing sooner. Anyway just done a 25% change and
good vacuum of the gravel (not too bad at the front but pretty dirty at
the
back where the plants are).

So it's continual monitoring and water changes for the next few
days....and
checking out the external pump.

I think it *is* possible to strike a balance between maintainence and
enjoyment with tanks

You can't apparently have the blance the whole time but most of the time if
you do the ground work first

Have a great day!

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

Elaine T wrote:
BTW, chin up! You're beating yourself up unfairly. This can be a
challenging hobby at time and you've been doing your absolute best.



This, I'm in total agreement with. You are doing a fantastic job, Oz.
Keep up the good work. Not only do you show ample ability to research
and learn, you are also obviously a very caring guy.

good luck,
steve

"steve" wrote in message
oups.com...

This, I'm in total agreement with. You are doing a fantastic job, Oz.
Keep up the good work. Not only do you show ample ability to research
and learn, you are also obviously a very caring guy.

Thanks so much for the kind words of support. I am a forearmed is
forewarned/All Things..type of guy, but I didn't expect this to happen, but
then again who does?

I checked the tank this morning and everything seems to be fine - first day
of not waking to losses.

The Serpae and Black Phantoms Tetras are doing their little vibrational
mating dances all over the tank and are really getting in to the Blue
Stricta Forrest

I am just going to keep my daily cleaning routine up now for 10 more days or
so, and we'll see how that pans out. If that's what's required then I'll par
it back to 2 X a week then back to weekly.

Talk about scary! Still it adds variety to life


good luck,

Thanks and the same to you.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

Elaine T wrote;
"food soaked in dissolved oxytetracycline"

Home made antibiotic food - can't beat it. If you disolve the
antibiotic in shrimp or fish oil, then soak the food in it, it will
stay on the food instead of being diluted by the water and, fish will
eat it a lot better than without the oil........Frank