Now I'm really worried!

1/2 tsp per 10 gal. of PP is the dose amount. Treatment takes 4 days,
but reinfection is high. Because it is *not* a medication or
antibiotic, with Flex. disease, most or all the fish will likely be
dead by the end of the second day. PP will raise the pH, and the tanks
temp is to warm - two things that speeds up the killing time when it
comes to Flex. disease. Antibiotics on the other hand, kills the
bacteria for the most part, the 1st. day. A 10 day treatment is tipical
with antibiotics, well over twice as long as really needed as for as
treating the fish. The extra time is to cover your behind, making sure
not to end up with a resistance bacteria/disease. ........ Frank

Ozdude wrote:
Oh dear,

Following on from the Sad Day thread:

I lost two of my SAE's and two more Neon Tetras suddenly this evening, just
when I thought everything was okay.

I didn't understand why after changing the water two days in a row (100%
changed in two days) and getting my chemistry right and back to stable
levels, why my fish were still passing away.

Some of you may remember I posted a while back about a Serpae Tetra female
that had what appeared to be an eaten away lower jaw due to "fungus"? (read
on because it's a major sign of what I now suspect is happening)

Well all of the Neons that have passed away have had this white-ish band
across their head from gill to gill.

The band appears seemingly over night, then they gasp at the surface, become
disorientated and then die. My SAE's that passed tonight had darker bands
from gill to gill and one of them was being chased literally to death by a
rampant Hockey Stick Tetra who just wouldn't leave it alone.

Considering that several factors have occurred of late in my tank, such as
high temperature (30 C), dirty substrate (only discovered this two days ago
and have vacuumed it clean each day since), low dissolved oxygen (a fairly
rapid raise in hardness and CO2 combined with the high temperature), stress
(trying to catch 5 BATs and disturbing one and all in the process - also
there has been some inter-species, and in-species (being bothered by mates)
spats) and a pretty big fluctuation in water quality, and slight over
feeding it seems, over the last 3 weeks or so;

I have come to the conclusion that what is now really killing my fish of
could very well be *Columnaris flexibacter*.

All the conditions have been there for it to develop and some of the dead
fish have shown mild external symptoms of it (the bands on the heads, the
dissolved lower jaw of the Serpae, and in the case of the bigger of the
SAE's that died - rapid respiration, lethargy and a complete change in
behavior several hours before and leading up to death).

The two Swords that died a few days ago showed no symptoms what-so-ever -
they just died very quickly, and they were both young and visibly very
healthy.

As Columnaris is gram-negative and contagious in warm de-oxygenated water, I
can state that I am *very worried* it's going to wipe the entire fish
population in my tank out.

The treatment I believe, and I need the more experienced people in the
groups to help me out here with this, is to lower the water temperature,
oxygenate, siphon gravel daily (it reportedly can grow on excess food and
waste on the gravel), change water daily and as a final resort dose with
Potassium Permanganate or Sulfur compounds? Does this sound right?

I have to act quickly on this or it's going to wipe the whole tank out, if
it is C.f..

I honestly can't see it being anything other than this because my water and
gravel are right on spec.

I am also guessing this is the price you pay too for not home quarantining
fish before they go into a tank? or are these bacteria always present in the
water column waiting for the right conditions?

If the worst happens and the entire population gets sick and dies, what is
the procedure for the tank itself?

Would you advise breaking the entire tank down, steralising everything
(especially filters and gravel), dosing the plants in Potassium
Permanganate/Bleach/H2O2 or something?

Oh boy, please help if you can - I think I am in big trouble and I'm about
to lose all of my fish

Many thanks in advance,

Oz

If you can get it, feed food soaked in dissolved oxytetracycline for 10
days. The advantage of medicated food is that it won't affect your
filter the way PP, acriflavine, or dissolved antibiotics would. I agree
with others that it doesn't sound like flexibacter, but oxytetracycline
is broad-spectrum and good for many fish diseases.

You're already cleaning the tank and keeping the fish in very clean
water, which is the other key for managing a disease.

BTW, chin up! You're beating yourself up unfairly. This can be a
challenging hobby at time and you've been doing your absolute best.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

In article .com,
Frank wrote:
1/2 tsp per 10 gal. of PP is the dose amount. Treatment takes 4 days,
but reinfection is high. Because it is *not* a medication or
antibiotic, with Flex. disease, most or all the fish will likely be
dead by the end of the second day. PP will raise the pH, and the tanks

Nonsense. It may be a quick or slow death or the fish may not die
at all. Dieter Untergasser in _Handbook of fish diseases_ discusses
this at some length.

Anything used to cure the fish is a "medication". Oddly he does
not list permanganate as a cure.

I believe Jungle labs makes a proprietary flex cure. (I
use acriflavine which seems to work)

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
Hi Oz,

Just one thing, which isn't really important at the moment...I tried
taking
the plants out of their pots and got into a total mess (especially with
the
clowns digging them up). Also makes it a bit harder when cleaning the
gravel - a job normally reserved for "hubby" as he's got more strength in
his arms than I do these days - plants go everywhere - (wish he was as
vigourous with the vaccuum cleaner in the house - lol)....at least it is
easier to reposition them if they are contained in pots....

I don't find an issue with potted plants in my tank. The root systems seem
to really take off in this tank.

I lifted (or tried to one of my giant Hygro. this evening and I couldn't
get it out of the gravel. What roots I did see where a brilliant white, so
that's a good thing - my plants are very healthy generally it seems. They
were all pearling away again today, so I think it's all about right on the
aqua-flora front

I find with plants in substrate, the sooner and better their root balls
develop the less chance they have of being up-rooted by accident or digging
fish. Most of my plants have been there long enough to have developed
natural anchoring, except the newest additions, which were the Dwarf Blue
Strica, Hygrophilia polysperma and a plant that looks like a large leafed
Pennywort (the name escapes me atm).

They have up-rooted at various times during the last few days from gravel
siphoning, but what has lifted has revealed root balls well on their way. I
also figure that if I am going to replant then the transplant shock will be
less on these newer plants than on the quite established ones.

I had to cut the polysperma back this evening actually because it was
starting to grow out of the top of the tank I am amazed at how easy and
rewarding aquatic gardening can be as lonng as you properly light, fertilize
and plant in the first place.

It's actually funny in a way - I thought I would have the most trouble with
the plants, but it's actually the reverse - trouble with the fish and
success with the plants.


When it comes to adding chemicals pH has to be a major
concern....chemicals
can react differently depending on whether added to acid, alkaline or
neutral substances. I would research very carefully before going down this
route. Yours is borderline acid/neutral at the moment in the tank and your
tap water is alkaline as far as I can tell from your postings....I'm not a
chemist so I'm not sure of the exact implications of adding the Potassium
Permanganate but I know someone who is...too late to phone them now but I
should be able to talk to them tomorrow if it would help....

I can't get PP atm, so the lovely lady at the LFS I frequent most (LFS#1 I
call it) gave me a bottle each of MelaFix and PimaFix on credit.

I have performed a 30% water change and gravel vacuuming, and I rinsed the
the sponges and changed to new filter floss in the filters before a dosing
of Tri-sulfur medication which I already had.

This turned the water white milky for an hour or so and no-one seemed to be
bothered by it. When I moved the second filter to get the basket off it I
also discovered the dead Neon I haven't been able to find for the last 24
hours, trapped behind the bracket.

I then waited another hour or so and I dosed with a combination of MelaFix
and PimaFix at the recommended dose (5ml per 40L). The fish did something
quite amazing - they all got into their species and shoaled around the tank.
The MelaFix really stank of Tea Tree and I thought I may have over dosed, in
combination with the Tri-sulfur a few hours before.

I noticed about 30 minutes later after the shoaling behaviour stopped a
couple of the Serpaes and both female Swordtails dashing themselves on the
substrate breifly - I was actually glad to see this - I think it was
behaviour indicative of ridding themselves of parasites, flukes or other
pests. I haven't seen anything come out of the fish, and at lights out all
of their coats looked very healthy. The Serpae males are the darkest orange
I've ever seen them and they fluttering about the place and "dancing" around
the females. The male Black Phantoms were doing the same thing but they were
almost jet black - a blue black - beautiful to see and watch.

I then topped the remainder of the tank up with about 15% of it's water with
an ammonia neutralising water conditioner for my peace of mind.

Then I noticed my lone Mystery Snail having resparitory problems at the
front of the tank on the substrate, so I removed it immediately and washed
it in some of the prechange tank water and placed it in the tank with the
BATs. I may lose it because it wasn't that active in the smaller tank. I
think the Tri-Sulfur may have had an effect on it because I'm pretty sure
the XXXXfix meds didn't do it.

Perhaps I should have waited for a day before dosing with the XXXXfix
solutions, but apart from the snail there is nothing more than a white
covering on the glass surfaces (I expected this because the filters would
have been knocked out by the Tri-Sulfur and the XXXXfix add organics to the
water - so any bacteria I would expect to turn white).

I'll actually leave it for now as the deaths seem to have stopped and there
are no visible symptoms at all on any of the remaining fish, and seeing the
glass turned cloudy white, I am pretty sure all bacteria in the tank was
actually gotten at by these combo meds.

Time will tell now. I'll do a water change in 3 days time and keep my eye on
the creatures. The pH was measured at hourly intervals over about 5 hours
and never went off neutral (7.0) the whole time. I didn't measure hardness
this time beacuse I was too busy freaking out about over-dosing

If after the water change, in 3 day, I notice any more symptoms then I have
enough XXXXfix solutions to apply the recommended dosages for 7 days as
advised on the bottles.

I could do another tri-sulfur too, but I am hesitant to use that stuff
because it's pretty severe.

I don't fancy turning the tank pink with PP and then oxidising/neutralising
it with Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2)/ Too much messing with quite dangerous
chemicals for my liking - there is too much at stake atm.

Just waiting and monitoring for now....


If this is always present in the water - which seems to be what everyone
is
saying - maybe it is down to treating the symptoms right now to sort the
fish and then taking a step back and review to stopping it happening
again....maybe it isn't possible to get rid of permanently, maybe we all
have it in our tanks..... Anyway see what your LFS says...

LFS lady tells me it's always in every tank and in almost every fish. It's a
matter of providing the right seeding conditions for it to break out. She
assures me that applying the tri-sulfur in combination with the XXXXfix'es
will kill it everywhere it is in the tank atm, but warns me that it could
return if I don't keep my gravel clean, water changed and stable or I
introduce stressed fish without quaranting them. She also states that most
Flex comes on fish from a LFS and really drummed it into me that I should be
quarantining all of the fish, even the ones from her for a minimum of 3
weeks, if I don't want it to break out again.

She also pointed out that none of the sale tanks had any substrate in them
because she has had a store wide Flex outbreak - I'd never considered that
was why

I guess, I could personally say that all this carry on about tank
maintinence is actually for a reason, and a very good reason. I also can't
stress enough to people now, that an appropriate gravel cleaner is
imperative for each tank you have.

You live and learn


Good Luck and best wishes

Thanks so much.

I hope the worst is now over and I can get on with a more balanced tank. I'm
sure more aware now of possible problems which can occur if certain
conditions are presented.

Regards,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
I believe Jungle labs makes a proprietary flex cure. (I
use acriflavine which seems to work)

You know what? I use a crystaline water conditioner available here at K-Mart
which contains Acriflavin;

I stopped using it two weeks ago and up until stopping using, apart from the
Female Serpae with the eaten away mouth (most definately Flex) that one
time, I've never had a parasitic or bacterial infection.

It seems when i stopped using it, the tank got sick - it could be just
timing because I really didn't know how dirty my substrate actually was and
I think this was a major contributer. Could be just serendipity.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

"miskairal" wrote in message
...
Because there are too many idiots out there who do one of the following
a) Don't continue the course long enough and cause drug resistance
b) Don't use the correct strength and cause drug resistance
c) Dump water in our creeks etc and cause nature problems
d) Put it in the food of animals that are going to be slaughtered for
human consumption
...to name a few.

And all of us that have come home on International Flights know how staunch
Australian quarantine restirictions are. These are all very good reasons.

It's clear to me now that medicated food isn't the only answer. Prevention
is definately better than cure, to start with, but even so if cure is called
for because prevention failed, it's seemingly quite possible to treat the
water column and all inhabitants. If Flex and bacteria live on substrate and
in filters etc., then it makes more sense to treat globally than
specifically.

As a few people have already pointed out - treating the fish only is part of
the answer but not the whole.

I read on a betta site last night that C.f. actually does have some highly
resistant strains now, something like the super-bug in hospitals that no
anti-biotic can beat.

There is always the option too of breaking the tank down - completely
disinfecting and steralizing it and starting again, which in itself isn't
such a bad thing. At least you get a second chance to get your aquascaping
and things you got wrong first time around, right


Now if it were in medicated food, how would you get the correct dosage to
the fish? If the fish is sick, it probably is not eating enough (if at
all) and therefore you would be exposing those bacteria to an antibiotic
but not in the strength to kill it or all of them. The survivors are the
ones who are resistant to that antibiotic. If those fish being treated
were from a fish farm then those bacteria that are resistant could enter
the human food chain and the time is already here when many human bacteria
are now resistant to most, if not all, antibiotics.

I treated my tank with tri-sulphur and the two XXXXfix fluids today and I
had a bit of a brainstorm about mediacted food - instead of flakes, pellets
or bloodworms - they got fed sinking wafers in a DIY feeder which prevents
it from settling on the substrate (an inverted plastic lid with a sucker
attached - half way down the water column which acts as a platform). As the
food absorbs the water it takes up the meds and you have a sort of crude
medicated feed. I figured it wouldn't hurt them because it's also getting
into their blood via respiration through the gill membranes.

I get annoyed that I can't get antibiotics for fish until I start to think
of what could happen. In the long run I don't suppose it will help Aust.
b/c the countries that allow free use of antibiotics will bring in their
resistant bugs here anyway.

This is why our quarantine is so full on - Australia prides itself on it's
freedom from o/s problems like this. BSE is a good example of this policy in
action.

I just heard it is forecast to get to 36 here tomorrow - it's autumn isn't
it?

It is indeed, but over the last decade at least I've noticed the seasons
moving to slightly later into the year. There are also the El Ninio and La
Nina effects we have influencing the weather here ;(

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

"miskairal" wrote in message
...

I can't seem to get anywhere at that website. I keep getting this message

java.rmi.ConnectException: Connection refused to host: 128.227.96.39;
nested exception is: java.net.ConnectException: Connection refused at
sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPEndpoint.newSocket(TCPEnd point.java:567) at

firefox 1.0
any ideas?

I'm using Forefox 1.0.1 and just got through. I couldn't last night though.

Try again with 1.0.1?

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

Ozdude wrote:


I am shocked at how filthy my gravel was and I can't begin to stress
how
important it is you get a really good gravel cleaner that suits your
tank. I
was using a cleaner suitable for a small tank and when I bought the
new 22"
one I'd say it sucked up 400% more junk on it's first use that the
little
one just wasn't able to pull up out of the substrate.


If this is true, don't you think people who use soil or even mammal
dung in their tank substrate would have massive water quality problems?
A large portion of the planted tank keepers do no deep gravel vac'ing
at all.

steve

"Elaine T" wrote in message
om...
If you can get it, feed food soaked in dissolved oxytetracycline for 10
days. The advantage of medicated food is that it won't affect your filter
the way PP, acriflavine, or dissolved antibiotics would. I agree with
others that it doesn't sound like flexibacter, but oxytetracycline is
broad-spectrum and good for many fish diseases.

You're already cleaning the tank and keeping the fish in very clean water,
which is the other key for managing a disease.

BTW, chin up! You're beating yourself up unfairly. This can be a
challenging hobby at time and you've been doing your absolute best.

Thnaks for your encouraging words. I'm not really beating myself up as far
as I can see. It's just one of the many aspects to this hobby. I was a
little astounded that a substrate that *looked healthy* was actually a
festering mess just below the surface.

I've treated with a broad-spectrum tri-suphur and Pima and MelaFix. I am
well aware, and prapared to lose my filter bacteria during this period, but
I have ammonia quelling water conditioner (in an emergency) and a mature
filter sponge set I can restablish (seed) the main tank with pretty quickly
once all the meds are finished with.

I figure if it isn't Flex but it's still a baterial thing then global
cleansing is needed, not just the fish. I just hope what I have done so far
is enough. Lowering the temperature just isn't possible at the moment
because the ambient temperature is so high during the day. I did notice the
heaters come on in the big tank tonight, so I pulled their power, but it
still hasn't dropped below 27C.

Daily gravel cleaning and water changes are the order of the day after the
next three days, for approximately a fortnight and if there is another
outbreak then I will consider shifting all remaining fish to a
holding/Hospital tank, same for the plants, breaking the display tank down
and steralizing everything in it, including the gravel, all filters and
media replacement, and then restarting it with a fishless cycling and re
populate it slowly after the cycle has completed. It's an opportunity to get
it more right than currently, more than anything else.

I have my eye on a 100L cube tank at LFS#1 which can hold the fish
(substrateless to begin with) while I medicate them some more and while the
main tank is being made safe. It may be a little crowded in the holding tank
and some of them may feel a little exposed because the plants will not be in
that tank as they need a seperate steralizing technique. I told you I was
catching MTS

I agree that a diligent cleaning routine is now required and i'm about 70%
there to preventing it happening again.

I see it as more of an opportunity than a problem, truth be known. I feel
for the fish that are dying, but I also have a perspective on that and I
know it's not really my direct intentional doing - more ignorance.

**** happens, and it's just really what you make of it more than it
happening

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

"steve" wrote in message
oups.com...

Ozdude wrote:


I am shocked at how filthy my gravel was and I can't begin to stress
how
important it is you get a really good gravel cleaner that suits your
tank. I
was using a cleaner suitable for a small tank and when I bought the
new 22"
one I'd say it sucked up 400% more junk on it's first use that the
little
one just wasn't able to pull up out of the substrate.


If this is true, don't you think people who use soil or even mammal
dung in their tank substrate would have massive water quality problems?
A large portion of the planted tank keepers do no deep gravel vac'ing
at all.

steve

Steve,; points taken. I never said I did a deep gravel vaccing. I haven't -
perhaps 0.5cm is the deepest I've gone. There was a lot of waste on and just
below the surface and it appears the bacteria took hold on it..

I don't advocate regular deep vaccing at all, never have, especially if you
have a planted tank.

Most of the advice sites I've read about substrates give warnings about soil
mixtures, dung and peat under/in substrates and there are many beautiful
planted tanks around using these types of substrates. It's almost definitely
a ymmv area.

I have lots of plants myself but I am of the opinion that if you have a good
working substrate (aerobic and good CEC) then the less disturbed it is the
better.

I've also seen tanks with Val. planted in sand and every time I've seen the
owners vacuum, they only do the surface mulm and detritus on the sand
surface - they never dig the siphon in - my point is actually you need a vac
with good suction so it can gently pick up most of the top surface mess,
where the bacteria have the most chance of getting a hold on the fish,
particularly bottom feeders.

All the best.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith