PH in new tank

"George" wrote in message news:2599e.1229$r53.744@attbi_s21...
And this is another strange thing in your description.
DI water SHOULD have the same issues as RO or distilled water.
Real DI water should be even cleaner than RO water, so it should
be even more easy to change its pH with CO2 introduction...
If you never noticed low pH of your DI water I would bet it was not very pure
water...

DI resins remove dissolved gases like CO2, so you shouldn't see
the same level of pH drop you see with RO. That was my point.

After couple of hours of aeration the concentration of CO2 in the
water will be in equilibrium, regardless of the water origins...
DI or RO water should have the same pH at this point, if equally pure.
DI water tends to be cleaner than an average RO water, so the pH
of DI water would be lower than pH of RO water, but - again - it does
not matter at all.

Yes. But if you have a lot of CO2 in your indoor air (humans, pets, etc)
the equilibrium after aerating will be on the higher levels of CO2 in the
water, which translates to lower pH levels of the pure water.

Not much I could do about that, since my tank is in the basement.

And this could be the most important reason for your low pH 7.5.
High concentration of CO2 in the ambient air will cause high
concentration of CO2 in the tank water. To increase ventilation
of the fish room is the only way to cope with this issue...
The same high concentration of CO2 causes problems in my tank.

Sigh. Because I didn't realize that RO membranes allowed CO2 to pass through.
CO2 not only lowers pH, but promotes algae growth. When I saw the low pH levels
in my tank (which, in 14 years of running, I've seen it maybe twice), I decided
to test the make up water.

I do not care how much CO2 does RO stop/pass - since I am not using
RO water right from the filter but aerate it in an open bucket...

After couple of hours of aerating, the level of CO2 in solution will reach
equilibrium with the ambient CO2 levels.

With aeration, yes.

Without aeration the same. But it just take a little longer.

Well, after four days with no aeration, the pH was 5.0. That bothers me, if for
no other reason than it makes me wonder what the CO2 levels are in my basement.

You can simply find out using some CO2 meter - like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=4374263171
You could even think of running automated ventilation system
based on your CO2 level in the basement air :-)
Of course it would influence your whole house ventilation as well.

Yeah, I'll do that as soon as I pay off my car! I used to have access to a
really good probe when I worked at an Environmental Engineering firm here in
town. But since I've been working at another firm out of town, I don't have
that access (this firm doesn't have as much equiptment as the other one did).

You do not need state of the art meter... $50 one would be fine.
I got some used one from eBay made by Thermo Orion about 10 years ago.
Excellent condition, fully automatic, two channels (if you like to
monitor ORP levels as well) fluorescent blue display nicely visible
at night, AC powered - highly recommend: Thermo Orion 525A.

Good luck with your tank. Keep us posted how is it going with pH...

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"George" wrote in message
news:2599e.1229$r53.744@attbi_s21...
And this is another strange thing in your description.
DI water SHOULD have the same issues as RO or distilled water.
Real DI water should be even cleaner than RO water, so it should
be even more easy to change its pH with CO2 introduction...
If you never noticed low pH of your DI water I would bet it was not very
pure water...

DI resins remove dissolved gases like CO2, so you shouldn't see
the same level of pH drop you see with RO. That was my point.

After couple of hours of aeration the concentration of CO2 in the
water will be in equilibrium, regardless of the water origins...

Again my point is that DI water removes CO2, regardless of equilibrium
conditions afterwards. I do understand the meaning of equilibrium. What I'm
trying to say is that with my DI unit, I never had low pH with my make up water,
so I am reasonably certain that the CO2 is not coming from the air in my house.
It has to be in the water. Considering that Iive in a region that has lots of
carbonate rocks, the feed water is likely the source of the CO2, not the air in
my house.

DI or RO water should have the same pH at this point, if equally pure.

Ok, back to the aeration bit. I've been aerating the water I made up yesterday.
Before I aerated the water, it had a pH of 4.5, as I mentioned before. It has
now been nearly 12 hours and the pH is only 6.0. So for me, it is going to take
a longer period of time to aerate the water. This is in line with what was
suggested at the link I provided earlier.

DI water tends to be cleaner than an average RO water, so the pH
of DI water would be lower than pH of RO water, but - again - it does
not matter at all.

I don't know how I can say it any clearer. DI units remove dissolved gases like
chlorine and CO2, so the pH will not be as low as it will with RO, which doesn't
remove CO2.

Yes. But if you have a lot of CO2 in your indoor air (humans, pets, etc)
the equilibrium after aerating will be on the higher levels of CO2 in the
water, which translates to lower pH levels of the pure water.

Not much I could do about that, since my tank is in the basement.

And this could be the most important reason for your low pH 7.5.
High concentration of CO2 in the ambient air will cause high
concentration of CO2 in the tank water. To increase ventilation
of the fish room is the only way to cope with this issue...
The same high concentration of CO2 causes problems in my tank.

I would tend to agree except that I didn't have this pH problem when I was using
the DI water, so I really don't think CO2 in my basement is the issue at all.

Sigh. Because I didn't realize that RO membranes allowed CO2 to pass
through. CO2 not only lowers pH, but promotes algae growth. When I saw the
low pH levels in my tank (which, in 14 years of running, I've seen it maybe
twice), I decided to test the make up water.

I do not care how much CO2 does RO stop/pass - since I am not using
RO water right from the filter but aerate it in an open bucket...

After couple of hours of aerating, the level of CO2 in solution will reach
equilibrium with the ambient CO2 levels.

With aeration, yes.

Without aeration the same. But it just take a little longer.

Well, after four days with no aeration, the pH was 5.0. That bothers me, if
for no other reason than it makes me wonder what the CO2 levels are in my
basement.

You can simply find out using some CO2 meter - like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=4374263171

I've got access to a Drager air sampler, so I will see if I can borrow it, but I
really don't think that CO2 in the air in my house is the problem, but we'll
see:

http://www.envisupply.com/rentals/in...AirSampler.htm

You could even think of running automated ventilation system
based on your CO2 level in the basement air :-)
Of course it would influence your whole house ventilation as well.

Sorry. I like my aquarium, but not that much.

Yeah, I'll do that as soon as I pay off my car! I used to have access to a
really good probe when I worked at an Environmental Engineering firm here in
town. But since I've been working at another firm out of town, I don't have
that access (this firm doesn't have as much equiptment as the other one did).

You do not need state of the art meter... $50 one would be fine.
I got some used one from eBay made by Thermo Orion about 10 years ago.
Excellent condition, fully automatic, two channels (if you like to
monitor ORP levels as well) fluorescent blue display nicely visible
at night, AC powered - highly recommend: Thermo Orion 525A.

Good luck with your tank. Keep us posted how is it going with pH...

Since I work in environmental consulting, I've used a lot of different meters.
If I am going to buy one (which may be a while before I do), I'll likely buy one
like this one:

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...=&lstBool=true

Hi George,
Your problems are in no way related to the use of RO or DI or
RO/DI water for evaporation top of, a PH of between 4 and 5 is quite
normal for an efficient RO/DI unit, commercially produced RO/DI water
has a buffer added to it as the law in most countrys requires drinking
water to be not less than neutral i.e. PH 7.0. My 300g system has an
evaporation rate of 20 litres per day which is replaced daily with
RO/DI water at PH 5, taken before the buffer is added (we have a
commercial RO/DI water plant in the family), my PH is constant at 8.3
or 8.4 in all my tanks, I do occasionally add 'Kalk' to my top of water
as as when it is necessary. Your problem is in your tank water, as has
already been stated and you should know evaporation does not remove
buffers or anything else. (leaks will though !!). For someone claiming
to have done a 2 year chemistry course and hold a masters degree in
Hydro geology and was it 30 odd years in the hobby? you are not talking
much sense, a lot of your statements are 'iffy' to put it mildly.
regards,
unclenorm.


George wrote:
"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"George" wrote in message
news:2599e.1229$r53.744@attbi_s21...
And this is another strange thing in your description.
DI water SHOULD have the same issues as RO or distilled water.
Real DI water should be even cleaner than RO water, so it should
be even more easy to change its pH with CO2 introduction...
If you never noticed low pH of your DI water I would bet it was
not very
pure water...

DI resins remove dissolved gases like CO2, so you shouldn't see
the same level of pH drop you see with RO. That was my point.

After couple of hours of aeration the concentration of CO2 in the
water will be in equilibrium, regardless of the water origins...

Again my point is that DI water removes CO2, regardless of
equilibrium
conditions afterwards. I do understand the meaning of equilibrium.
What I'm
trying to say is that with my DI unit, I never had low pH with my
make up water,
so I am reasonably certain that the CO2 is not coming from the air in
my house.
It has to be in the water. Considering that Iive in a region that
has lots of
carbonate rocks, the feed water is likely the source of the CO2, not
the air in
my house.

DI or RO water should have the same pH at this point, if equally
pure.

Ok, back to the aeration bit. I've been aerating the water I made up
yesterday.
Before I aerated the water, it had a pH of 4.5, as I mentioned
before. It has
now been nearly 12 hours and the pH is only 6.0. So for me, it is
going to take
a longer period of time to aerate the water. This is in line with
what was
suggested at the link I provided earlier.

DI water tends to be cleaner than an average RO water, so the pH
of DI water would be lower than pH of RO water, but - again - it
does
not matter at all.

I don't know how I can say it any clearer. DI units remove dissolved
gases like
chlorine and CO2, so the pH will not be as low as it will with RO,
which doesn't
remove CO2.

Yes. But if you have a lot of CO2 in your indoor air (humans,
pets, etc)
the equilibrium after aerating will be on the higher levels of
CO2 in the
water, which translates to lower pH levels of the pure water.

Not much I could do about that, since my tank is in the basement.

And this could be the most important reason for your low pH 7.5.
High concentration of CO2 in the ambient air will cause high
concentration of CO2 in the tank water. To increase ventilation
of the fish room is the only way to cope with this issue...
The same high concentration of CO2 causes problems in my tank.

I would tend to agree except that I didn't have this pH problem when
I was using
the DI water, so I really don't think CO2 in my basement is the issue
at all.

Sigh. Because I didn't realize that RO membranes allowed CO2 to
pass
through. CO2 not only lowers pH, but promotes algae growth. When
I saw the
low pH levels in my tank (which, in 14 years of running, I've seen
it maybe
twice), I decided to test the make up water.

I do not care how much CO2 does RO stop/pass - since I am not using
RO water right from the filter but aerate it in an open bucket...

After couple of hours of aerating, the level of CO2 in solution
will reach
equilibrium with the ambient CO2 levels.

With aeration, yes.

Without aeration the same. But it just take a little longer.

Well, after four days with no aeration, the pH was 5.0. That
bothers me, if
for no other reason than it makes me wonder what the CO2 levels
are in my
basement.

You can simply find out using some CO2 meter - like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=4374263171

I've got access to a Drager air sampler, so I will see if I can
borrow it, but I
really don't think that CO2 in the air in my house is the problem,
but we'll
see:

http://www.envisupply.com/rentals/in...AirSampler.htm

You could even think of running automated ventilation system
based on your CO2 level in the basement air :-)
Of course it would influence your whole house ventilation as well.

Sorry. I like my aquarium, but not that much.

Yeah, I'll do that as soon as I pay off my car! I used to have
access to a
really good probe when I worked at an Environmental Engineering
firm here in
town. But since I've been working at another firm out of town, I
don't have
that access (this firm doesn't have as much equiptment as the
other one did).

You do not need state of the art meter... $50 one would be fine.
I got some used one from eBay made by Thermo Orion about 10 years
ago.
Excellent condition, fully automatic, two channels (if you like to
monitor ORP levels as well) fluorescent blue display nicely visible
at night, AC powered - highly recommend: Thermo Orion 525A.

Good luck with your tank. Keep us posted how is it going with pH...

Since I work in environmental consulting, I've used a lot of
different meters.
If I am going to buy one (which may be a while before I do), I'll
likely buy one
like this one:


http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...=&lstBool=true

"unclenorm" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi George,
Your problems are in no way related to the use of RO or DI or
RO/DI water for evaporation top of, a PH of between 4 and 5 is quite
normal for an efficient RO/DI unit, commercially produced RO/DI water
has a buffer added to it as the law in most countrys requires drinking
water to be not less than neutral i.e. PH 7.0. My 300g system has an
evaporation rate of 20 litres per day which is replaced daily with
RO/DI water at PH 5, taken before the buffer is added (we have a
commercial RO/DI water plant in the family), my PH is constant at 8.3
or 8.4 in all my tanks, I do occasionally add 'Kalk' to my top of water
as as when it is necessary. Your problem is in your tank water, as has
already been stated and you should know evaporation does not remove
buffers or anything else. (leaks will though !!). For someone claiming
to have done a 2 year chemistry course and hold a masters degree in
Hydro geology and was it 30 odd years in the hobby? you are not talking
much sense, a lot of your statements are 'iffy' to put it mildly.
regards,
unclenorm.


Plants and animals will cause changes in the tanks buffer system, particularly
plants. The buffers don't stay in solution indefinitely, whether there is
evaporation or not. Some of it gets used up. And yes I've been in the aquarium
hobby all of my life, though have only had a salt water tank for 14 years.

George,
That's rather an odd reply from someone with all your
stated experience, while your statement is true the changes are
insignificant and would take along time to show in a salt water system
unlike fresh water.
regards,
unclenorm.
PS. I've been n the hobby for more than 50 years.

"unclenorm" wrote in message
oups.com...
George,
That's rather an odd reply from someone with all your
stated experience, while your statement is true the changes are
insignificant and would take along time to show in a salt water system
unlike fresh water.
regards,
unclenorm.
PS. I've been n the hobby for more than 50 years.

That has been the assumption for a long time by a lot of aquarists. I'm not so
sure that it is insignificant. I guess I'll have to wait and see how things
change in the hobby over the next few years. Remember, things have changed
tremendously over the last few years alone. We are finding things ouot all the
time. I'm still open to the suggestion that it might be insignificant, yet my
own experience suggests that it may not be.

Hi again George,
Here's an example of my experience with
one of my smaller tanks. It's a DIY 111g system :- 68g display with 30g
refugium/13g sump, this system was set up about 3.5 years ago using
RO/DI water, 'Marinium' artificial sea salt and some Sodium Bicarbonate
about days 3,4 and 5 to raise the PH to 8.4 the display has a 3"/3.5"
live sand bed with 140lbs live rock, mostly dead corals in large
pieces, sitting on a 1/2" PVC pipe framework closed loop at the sand
surface, drilled with small holes like a spray bar and fed by a
2000L/hr power head to give good circulation through the live rock. The
display tank has a total flow of 2,560g/hr about 37 tanks per hour made
up of the return pump, the closed loop mentioned above and 3 power
heads, one of which is quite small, 600L/hr it's function is to keep
the 2 overflow bends permanently primed by drawing any air out of the
top of the bends via air line tubing and fitting glued in the highest
points. (fool proof and fail safe). The refugium has a 7" live deep
sand bed. I also have a Jebo quadplex spraying protein skimmer in the
sump processing 2,000L/hr. this system evaporates about 8 to 10Lt per
day depending on the ambient temp. ( today at noon it was 37C (98F) the
tank runs at 29/33C. My top of water is straight RO/DI PH5/6. In 3.5
years I've added very small amounts of Sodium Bicarbonate 3 times and
1.5Kg of salt mix once to make up for salinity lose through salt creep,
I also add Limewater every couple of weeks to repace consumed calcium
and essential elements when required. I do not do water changes because
I don't think they are necessary in a well managed system, ( also the
cost would be prohibitive in my case with my total volume of water).
My water parameters a-
Flow 37 tank
volumes per hour
Temp. 32C
SPG 1.023
(about 35 PPT)
PH 8.4
KH
115mg/L
Ca
430mg/L
Fe Less
than 0.1- more than 0.0mg/L
NH3/NH4 0.0
NO2 0.0
NO3 Less
than 5mg/L
PO4
0.25mg/L
PS. I do use activated carbon for about a week maybe twice a year to
polish the water. Also I have 5W/G lighting via 20,000k MH, 10,000
Fluorescents and O3 actinic's and 10,000K on the refugium on reverse
cycle to stablize the PH.
regards,
unclenorm.