AVERAGE LIFE OF YELLOW TANG - UPDATE

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"Russ J." wrote in message
. ..
I am installing a GFCI this weekend.
I will then see what measurments I get.

I do not expect GFCI doing any miracles with your measurments.

A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there is
any imbalance, it trips the circuit. It is able to sense a mismatch as small as
4 or 5 milliamps, and it can react as quickly as one-thirtieth of a second. It
will prevent the tank from going "live". If any appliances are leaking current,
it will let you know, and won't let the voltage flow again until the problem is
fixed. Anyone not using them is asking for trouble. In many cities, they are
now required in bathrooms or anywhere where there are live wires and water.
Once enough aquarium enthusiasts get zapped, expect regulations to change for
this industry as well.

"George" wrote in message news:7PSee.61138$WI3.45634@attbi_s71...
"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"Russ J." wrote in message
. ..
I am installing a GFCI this weekend.
I will then see what measurments I get.

I do not expect GFCI doing any miracles with your measurments.

A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there is
any imbalance, it trips the circuit. It is able to sense a mismatch as small as
4 or 5 milliamps, and it can react as quickly as one-thirtieth of a second. It
will prevent the tank from going "live". If any appliances are leaking current,
it will let you know, and won't let the voltage flow again until the problem is
fixed. Anyone not using them is asking for trouble. In many cities, they are
now required in bathrooms or anywhere where there are live wires and water.
Once enough aquarium enthusiasts get zapped, expect regulations to change for
this industry as well.

Hm... I do not advocate agains the GFCI.
I just said I do not expect it doing any change to his measurements!

If you read the whole thread you would found out he measured 48VAC
between tank water column and the cooper pipes for tap water...
I just know voltage measurements of this kind are worthless.
Yes, very similar to pH measurements of RO/DI water... ;-)

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"George" wrote in message
news:7PSee.61138$WI3.45634@attbi_s71...
"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"Russ J." wrote in message
. ..
I am installing a GFCI this weekend.
I will then see what measurments I get.

I do not expect GFCI doing any miracles with your measurments.

A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there
is any imbalance, it trips the circuit. It is able to sense a mismatch as
small as 4 or 5 milliamps, and it can react as quickly as one-thirtieth of a
second. It will prevent the tank from going "live". If any appliances are
leaking current, it will let you know, and won't let the voltage flow again
until the problem is fixed. Anyone not using them is asking for trouble. In
many cities, they are now required in bathrooms or anywhere where there are
live wires and water. Once enough aquarium enthusiasts get zapped, expect
regulations to change for this industry as well.

Hm... I do not advocate agains the GFCI.
I just said I do not expect it doing any change to his measurements!

If you read the whole thread you would found out he measured 48VAC
between tank water column and the cooper pipes for tap water...
I just know voltage measurements of this kind are worthless.
Yes, very similar to pH measurements of RO/DI water... ;-)

It will, in fact change his measurements completely, because 48 VAC will likely
carry significant amperage (more than 4 or 5 milliamps), which is more than
enough to trip the GFCI, and completely shut down everything. So after this
happens, he shouldn't read any voltage, and definitely no amperage.

"George" wrote in message news:TRZee.61608$WI3.54789@attbi_s71...
Hm... I do not advocate agains the GFCI.
I just said I do not expect it doing any change to his measurements!

If you read the whole thread you would found out he measured 48VAC
between tank water column and the cooper pipes for tap water...
I just know voltage measurements of this kind are worthless.
Yes, very similar to pH measurements of RO/DI water... ;-)

It will, in fact change his measurements completely, because 48 VAC will likely
carry significant amperage (more than 4 or 5 milliamps), which is more than
enough to trip the GFCI, and completely shut down everything. So after this
happens, he shouldn't read any voltage, and definitely no amperage.

I am taking from above that you did not read the original poster...
His 48VAC reading was even after he has unplugged all his devices.

Please read his original words
Could you explain then how GFCI could influence his voltage readings ?

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"George" wrote in message
news:TRZee.61608$WI3.54789@attbi_s71...
Hm... I do not advocate agains the GFCI.
I just said I do not expect it doing any change to his measurements!

If you read the whole thread you would found out he measured 48VAC
between tank water column and the cooper pipes for tap water...
I just know voltage measurements of this kind are worthless.
Yes, very similar to pH measurements of RO/DI water... ;-)

It will, in fact change his measurements completely, because 48 VAC will
likely carry significant amperage (more than 4 or 5 milliamps), which is more
than enough to trip the GFCI, and completely shut down everything. So after
this happens, he shouldn't read any voltage, and definitely no amperage.

I am taking from above that you did not read the original poster...
His 48VAC reading was even after he has unplugged all his devices.

Please read his original words

Could you explain then how GFCI could influence his voltage readings ?

No, what he said was "I measured the AC voltage from the copper inlet pipe to
the tank water -- by sticking the probe into the water. Was I surprised. I
measured 48 VOLTS AC !!!! I then began unplugging equipment. "

So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
equipment was leaking current into the tank. He then proceeded to describe the
voltage he got after he unplugged various appliances. He also said in a later
post "I am installing a GFCI this weekend. I will then see what measurments I
get. Should have done this anyway - being around water." So we will have to
wait and see what his results are. I suspect that if he plugs all of the same
equipment (the ones that showed voltage leakage according to his measurements)
into that GFCI, it will trip the circuit, shutting off the power. He will
likely have to replace some of this equipment in order to prevent the GFCI from
tripping.

"George" wrote in message news:X0gfe.63729$WI3.37219@attbi_s71...
I am taking from above that you did not read the original poster...
His 48VAC reading was even after he has unplugged all his devices.

Please read his original words

Could you explain then how GFCI could influence his voltage readings ?

No, what he said was "I measured the AC voltage from the copper inlet pipe to
the tank water -- by sticking the probe into the water. Was I surprised. I
measured 48 VOLTS AC !!!! I then began unplugging equipment. "

So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
equipment was leaking current into the tank. He then proceeded to describe the
voltage he got after he unplugged various appliances.

You have stopped your reading too soon. He wrote:
"When EVERYTHING was unplugged - I still had a reading of 32 Volts AC."
I admit, I mentioned incorrectly 48V, but 32VAC makes not a big difference.
When all devices are unpluged we have the proof that 32VAC is NOT coming
from these devices. And GFCI will not change the readings.

We can make some efforts to explain what is the possible source of
his 32VAC but this is a different story... It could be even his
local radio station and his tank acts like an RF antenna...
It does not matter. His high impedance voltmeter will pick up
any voltages, even from the air, and it does not mean his devices
are leaking electricity, what was prooven with unplugging them all
and still recording non-zero reading.

I suspect that if he plugs all of the same
equipment (the ones that showed voltage leakage according to his measurements)
into that GFCI, it will trip the circuit, shutting off the power. He will
likely have to replace some of this equipment in order to prevent the GFCI from
tripping.

And I will bet that everything is fine with his devices, George.
His measurement method is wrong! If he had any device leaking,
his high-impedance voltmeter would show voltage close to 120VAC
and only when the suspected device is plugged to the mains.

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"George" wrote in message
news:X0gfe.63729$WI3.37219@attbi_s71...
I am taking from above that you did not read the original poster...
His 48VAC reading was even after he has unplugged all his devices.

Please read his original words

Could you explain then how GFCI could influence his voltage readings ?

No, what he said was "I measured the AC voltage from the copper inlet pipe to
the tank water -- by sticking the probe into the water. Was I surprised. I
measured 48 VOLTS AC !!!! I then began unplugging equipment. "

So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
equipment was leaking current into the tank. He then proceeded to describe
the voltage he got after he unplugged various appliances.

You have stopped your reading too soon. He wrote:
"When EVERYTHING was unplugged - I still had a reading of 32 Volts AC."
I admit, I mentioned incorrectly 48V, but 32VAC makes not a big difference.
When all devices are unpluged we have the proof that 32VAC is NOT coming
from these devices. And GFCI will not change the readings.

Sir. If there are 32 VAC in the tank, I assure you that the GFCI will trip.
Obviously he missed something. When I first checked out voltages in my tank, I
got a reading in the 30 volt range. One by one I disconnected appliances, and
found that all were contributing small voltages to the tank. When I finally had
all appliances not just turned off, but unplugged, the voltage went to 0.


We can make some efforts to explain what is the possible source of
his 32VAC but this is a different story... It could be even his
local radio station and his tank acts like an RF antenna...
It does not matter. His high impedance voltmeter will pick up
any voltages, even from the air, and it does not mean his devices
are leaking electricity, what was prooven with unplugging them all
and still recording non-zero reading.

It means that he either missed an appliance or that he is picking up stray
voltages. Picking up stray voltages doesn't mean that the tank itself it
charged. If he is using a copper water pipe in the house for a ground
connection, maybe that is a source of the stray readings, since copper pipes
make good AM antannas, for instance. He should use the ground in his wall
outlet, or even better, a filtered ground from a battery backup device for a
computer. My understanding is digital voltmeters are more susceptible to stray
voltage readings, but usually those are in the millivolt, not volts range. I
have radio shack's "best" analogue multimeter, and it seems to be pretty
accurate.

I suspect that if he plugs all of the same equipment (the ones that showed
voltage leakage according to his measurements) into that GFCI, it will trip
the circuit, shutting off the power. He will likely have to replace some of
this equipment in order to prevent the GFCI from tripping.

And I will bet that everything is fine with his devices, George.
His measurement method is wrong! If he had any device leaking,
his high-impedance voltmeter would show voltage close to 120VAC
and only when the suspected device is plugged to the mains.

Well, that has no been my experience, so we'll have to see what his result is.

George you just can't seem to get a fix on the subject matter but just like to argue :-)

"So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
equipment was leaking current into the tank"

NO IT DOES NOT

Almost anything electrical will produce "Induced Voltage", without any leaking what so
ever. Electrical equipment produces a electrical filed, which cause induced voltage ,
i.e.. wires, motors, lights, sockets. You can actually take a 10 gal aquarium full of
seawater and stick in front of a wall socket and it will induce a few volts. YOU DO NOT
NEED CURRENT TO GET VOLTAGE. A lamp cord going to a lamp on the table and passing behind
you tank can induce voltageint the water. We have beat this subject to death over the
years, do a search on it, here or the internet. There are many articles on it, some by
electrical engineers, who have tested and studied it well. Do you know what an Amp-Clamp
is and how it works ? Most voltages in the aquarium are meaningless. 48 volts is nothing,
start getting worried when it reads 90 or 100, etc. that is a leak. After years of debate
it is felt by most authorities always install a Grounding probe and GFCI.

So, do you want to listen this time or argue ??

Have a nice day

--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php


Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

"Boomer" wrote in message
...
George you just can't seem to get a fix on the subject matter but just like to
argue :-)

"So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
equipment was leaking current into the tank"

NO IT DOES NOT

If he unplugged the appliances one by one and got a voltage drop each time
(which he did), it certainly does mean that the voltages are coming from the
appliances. Oh, and I do understand about induced voltages, and have posted a
couple of articles about it right here in this newsgroup. Regardless of whether
the voltages are induced or leaking, if those voltages induce a current in the
water, you can get shocked, the animals in the tank can be adversely affected,
and a GFCI WILL trip. That is all I'm saying here.

Almost anything electrical will produce "Induced Voltage", without any leaking
what so
ever. Electrical equipment produces a electrical filed, which cause induced
voltage ,
i.e.. wires, motors, lights, sockets. You can actually take a 10 gal aquarium
full of
seawater and stick in front of a wall socket and it will induce a few volts.
YOU DO NOT
NEED CURRENT TO GET VOLTAGE. A lamp cord going to a lamp on the table and
passing behind
you tank can induce voltageint the water. We have beat this subject to death
over the
years, do a search on it, here or the internet. There are many articles on it,
some by
electrical engineers, who have tested and studied it well. Do you know what an
Amp-Clamp
is and how it works ? Most voltages in the aquarium are meaningless. 48 volts
is nothing,
start getting worried when it reads 90 or 100, etc. that is a leak. After
years of debate
it is felt by most authorities always install a Grounding probe and GFCI.

A ground fault interupter is what I have been recommending in nearly all of my
posts about this issue, including the first one I posted regarding this issue.
If YOU had been paying attention to my posts a little more carefully, you would
have noted that.

So, do you want to listen this time or argue ??

Have a nice day

Do you want to shut the **** up and stop trolling me, or what?

George wrote:

In many cities, they are
now required in bathrooms or anywhere where there are live wires and water.

This is also in the national electrical code. All bathroom outlets, outside
outlets, and outlets over kitchen counters must be protected with a GFCI
breaker. They're also highly recommended (and in some areas required) in any
room with a concrete floor. Here in New Jersey, the buyer is required to install
them in bathrooms and kitchens in houses which do not have them when the house
is sold.

There's also a circuit breaker that's similar that's now required for any
circuit that services a bedroom wall outlet. Can't remember the name (something
like BFI), but its purpose is to prevent electrical fires.

Once enough aquarium enthusiasts get zapped, expect regulations to change for
this industry as well.

Bet you're right. I'm not looking forward to crawling upside down under my
cabinet stand, but I'll be putting one in as soon as I find my round twoit (and
my back brace :-) ).

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.