Losing fish...any ideas appreciated

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:49:33 GMT, "LaVerne Storey"
wrote:

Hi Gil,

Jumped on this late as I've just this week started setting up tanks again
after an 8-year absence due to work.
My questions and comments are woven below; bear in mind I'm VERY
old-fashioned about aquaria:

Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at 5.

For most freshwater fish in general, and Mollies specifically are you adding
about 1/2 to 1 tsp of salt per gallon to the water? It greatly helps in
controlling
bacteria problems and helps the fish maintain their "slime coat" easier.
For lots of live plants, I'd probably go with the 1/2 tsp per gallon.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.

Why would you do more than maybe 10% water changes monthy, if that
much? I would, personaly, find 20%+ weekly to be way too stressful on
both fish and plants. What type of filter are you using?

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Wild-ass-guess here that the fish are being over-stressed by all the water
changes disturbing their enviroment, the water doesn't have time to "age"
and promote healthy fish.
Go with the very cheap and old-time salt fix and see how it works for you.

Please email me with the results.

Mack




Hi Mack,

You just prove my opinion that there are many ways to maintain our
fish. I hold an opposite view to you. I change 20% weekly. I have 5
tanks ranging from 75 to 29 to 10 gallons and have followed this
partial water change procedure for over 2 years.

While Mollies like some salt, not all fish do and I believe some
plants don't like salt. One size does not fit all! g

dick

Hi Mack,

You just prove my opinion that there are many ways to maintain our
fish. I hold an opposite view to you. I change 20% weekly. I have 5
tanks ranging from 75 to 29 to 10 gallons and have followed this
partial water change procedure for over 2 years.

While Mollies like some salt, not all fish do and I believe some
plants don't like salt. One size does not fit all! g

dick

I agree completely, we are all "trained" by past successes and experiences
and apply what we have learned differently.
Even my heaviest planted tanks always had about 1/2 tsp salt added per
gallon
since "forever" so I always offer that up as my opinion.
Frequent water changes work for many people, and I know a few Discus
breeders who swear by them, whereas I swear at them as a pain in the butt
unless actually needed.

Through high school back in the mid 70's, I had one 10-gallon tank that
never received a water change or cleaning for 2 years.
It was heavily planted, mostly java moss, and was stocked with a family of
whiteclouds ( 8 initially) and restocked occasionally with daphnia.
It also had a strong growth of algae for the fish to nibble on.

It had a tight fitting cover and gentle back filter powered by an airpump.
(sort of a motor-less power filter I could change sponge from outside the
tank)
Rinsing and replacing the sponge was it for maintenance other than a monthly
scraping the algae off the front of the tank so I could see in clearly.

I did several water top-ups over the months to replace evaporation losses,
but no water was ever changed or removed. The white clouds were fed flake
foods and daphnia when available, and the daphnia were breeding slowly in
the tank
from those who survived feeding.

Over the two years I had it setup, I netted out over 400 baby whiteclouds to
hand
out to friends, or feed the excess to my killies.

I wouldn't try this with discus in a million years, but my bettas loved a
very
similiar tank setup and so did my angelfish who bred several times on a
piece
of slate leaned up against the back of the tank under the water flow from
the
filter.

Like I said in my first post, I'm old fashioned about fish and tanks.
Set it up as natural as I can and leave it alone.

Mack

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:37:13 GMT, "LaVerne Storey"
wrote:

Hi Mack,

You just prove my opinion that there are many ways to maintain our
fish. I hold an opposite view to you. I change 20% weekly. I have 5
tanks ranging from 75 to 29 to 10 gallons and have followed this
partial water change procedure for over 2 years.

While Mollies like some salt, not all fish do and I believe some
plants don't like salt. One size does not fit all! g

dick

I agree completely, we are all "trained" by past successes and experiences
and apply what we have learned differently.
Even my heaviest planted tanks always had about 1/2 tsp salt added per
gallon
since "forever" so I always offer that up as my opinion.
Frequent water changes work for many people, and I know a few Discus
breeders who swear by them, whereas I swear at them as a pain in the butt
unless actually needed.

Through high school back in the mid 70's, I had one 10-gallon tank that
never received a water change or cleaning for 2 years.
It was heavily planted, mostly java moss, and was stocked with a family of
whiteclouds ( 8 initially) and restocked occasionally with daphnia.
It also had a strong growth of algae for the fish to nibble on.

It had a tight fitting cover and gentle back filter powered by an airpump.
(sort of a motor-less power filter I could change sponge from outside the
tank)
Rinsing and replacing the sponge was it for maintenance other than a monthly
scraping the algae off the front of the tank so I could see in clearly.

I did several water top-ups over the months to replace evaporation losses,
but no water was ever changed or removed. The white clouds were fed flake
foods and daphnia when available, and the daphnia were breeding slowly in
the tank
from those who survived feeding.

Over the two years I had it setup, I netted out over 400 baby whiteclouds to
hand
out to friends, or feed the excess to my killies.

I wouldn't try this with discus in a million years, but my bettas loved a
very
similiar tank setup and so did my angelfish who bred several times on a
piece
of slate leaned up against the back of the tank under the water flow from
the
filter.

Like I said in my first post, I'm old fashioned about fish and tanks.
Set it up as natural as I can and leave it alone.

Mack



One long term consideration, by only adding water to replace water
evaporated, the solid to fluid ratio increases. This leads to the
"Old Tank Syndrome." Moving new fish in or old fish out requires them
to adjust, if possible, to a different "osmotic" pressure. It is my
understanding the pressure can become great enough that the fish can
no longer adjust. Thus new fish added from the LFS are at risk or fry
moved to a new tank will be at risk.

I have not experienced such a problem, but then my tanks are less than
3 years of age and I do the partial water changes which should keep
the solids build up down.

Otherwise I see things the way you do. A well balanced tank with
plants and a proper fish load should do well, it does in nature all
the time, but in nature there is a constant exchange of water or else
we call the water stagnant. However, I have read of closed systems
that keep their balance. Your tanks sound close to closed except for
the evaporation of water which leads to solids becoming concentrated.

Another thought is oxygen. I have seen fish gasping at the top for
air. Usually due to medication, but can be caused by other things
such as over population. Adding air bubblers can correct the
situation quickly, but increases evaporation. I noted the "back
filter" run by an air pump. I remember them well as I did not like
changing out the filter media. They were a source of aeration.

It is strange how we each arrive at procedures and setups which work
for us. Then, we all cling to the thought, "If it ain't broke, don't
fix it". I read the newsgroups every morning, but seldom am I tempted
to change MY setups.

I know my tanks were over populated and still are, size has replaced
quantities, but the inch/gallon ratio has probably gone higher. I see
my plant population change and different tanks populated with the same
plants at the same time vary in plant survival and growth. Crypts in
my 75 gallon tank are about 3 inches in height whereas in a 29 gallon
tank they are more prolific and grow to heights of a foot or more
topping out close to the light hood. A couple of Clown Loaches in the
29 gallon tank are larger than any in the 75 gallon and 2 in a 10
gallon tank seem to be doing well and of average size.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Real experience out weighs
theories every time for me. (except the solid ratio buildup, it could
be sneaky)

dick

Dick wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:37:13 GMT, "LaVerne Storey"
wrote:


Hi Mack,

You just prove my opinion that there are many ways to maintain our
fish. I hold an opposite view to you. I change 20% weekly. I have 5
tanks ranging from 75 to 29 to 10 gallons and have followed this
partial water change procedure for over 2 years.

While Mollies like some salt, not all fish do and I believe some
plants don't like salt. One size does not fit all! g

dick

I agree completely, we are all "trained" by past successes and experiences
and apply what we have learned differently.
Even my heaviest planted tanks always had about 1/2 tsp salt added per
gallon
since "forever" so I always offer that up as my opinion.
Frequent water changes work for many people, and I know a few Discus
breeders who swear by them, whereas I swear at them as a pain in the butt
unless actually needed.

Through high school back in the mid 70's, I had one 10-gallon tank that
never received a water change or cleaning for 2 years.
It was heavily planted, mostly java moss, and was stocked with a family of
whiteclouds ( 8 initially) and restocked occasionally with daphnia.
It also had a strong growth of algae for the fish to nibble on.

It had a tight fitting cover and gentle back filter powered by an airpump.
(sort of a motor-less power filter I could change sponge from outside the
tank)
Rinsing and replacing the sponge was it for maintenance other than a monthly
scraping the algae off the front of the tank so I could see in clearly.

I did several water top-ups over the months to replace evaporation losses,
but no water was ever changed or removed. The white clouds were fed flake
foods and daphnia when available, and the daphnia were breeding slowly in
the tank

from those who survived feeding.

Over the two years I had it setup, I netted out over 400 baby whiteclouds to
hand
out to friends, or feed the excess to my killies.

I wouldn't try this with discus in a million years, but my bettas loved a
very
similiar tank setup and so did my angelfish who bred several times on a
piece
of slate leaned up against the back of the tank under the water flow from
the
filter.

Like I said in my first post, I'm old fashioned about fish and tanks.
Set it up as natural as I can and leave it alone.

Mack




One long term consideration, by only adding water to replace water
evaporated, the solid to fluid ratio increases. This leads to the
"Old Tank Syndrome." Moving new fish in or old fish out requires them
to adjust, if possible, to a different "osmotic" pressure. It is my
understanding the pressure can become great enough that the fish can
no longer adjust. Thus new fish added from the LFS are at risk or fry
moved to a new tank will be at risk.

I have not experienced such a problem, but then my tanks are less than
3 years of age and I do the partial water changes which should keep
the solids build up down.

Otherwise I see things the way you do. A well balanced tank with
plants and a proper fish load should do well, it does in nature all
the time, but in nature there is a constant exchange of water or else
we call the water stagnant. However, I have read of closed systems
that keep their balance. Your tanks sound close to closed except for
the evaporation of water which leads to solids becoming concentrated.

Another thought is oxygen. I have seen fish gasping at the top for
air. Usually due to medication, but can be caused by other things
such as over population. Adding air bubblers can correct the
situation quickly, but increases evaporation. I noted the "back
filter" run by an air pump. I remember them well as I did not like
changing out the filter media. They were a source of aeration.

It is strange how we each arrive at procedures and setups which work
for us. Then, we all cling to the thought, "If it ain't broke, don't
fix it". I read the newsgroups every morning, but seldom am I tempted
to change MY setups.

I know my tanks were over populated and still are, size has replaced
quantities, but the inch/gallon ratio has probably gone higher. I see
my plant population change and different tanks populated with the same
plants at the same time vary in plant survival and growth. Crypts in
my 75 gallon tank are about 3 inches in height whereas in a 29 gallon
tank they are more prolific and grow to heights of a foot or more
topping out close to the light hood. A couple of Clown Loaches in the
29 gallon tank are larger than any in the 75 gallon and 2 in a 10
gallon tank seem to be doing well and of average size.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Real experience out weighs
theories every time for me. (except the solid ratio buildup, it could
be sneaky)

dick


That whitecloud tank sounds like a real joy to keep and watch. I'm a
frequent water changer as well, but it's nice to know there are other
options. I think fishkeeping is easier with frequent water changes -
one doesn't have to worry quite as much about tank balance. My dad kept
fish in the '70s and said that aquarists avoided changing water as much
as possible. He kept mostly killies in tanks with big clumps of
floating watersprite.

As for the water mineralizing, that's not necessarily an issue in a
planted tank. Remember that plants can extract dissolved organics from
the water and require minerals like Mg, Mn, Fe, some Ca, and C03.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Originally Posted by Gill Passman

Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at 5.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Thanks
Gill

Gill
I have been reading through this problem with the fish losses. It appears most avenues have been explored. But am I right in thinking this tank is in a separate room from the others? Could the cause possibly be from outside? for example, spray polish/air freshners.

You say this happens at night, is the room sealed at night? Have you decorated recently. Open fire? gas fire/boiler
Have you had any carpets dry cleaned.
Just a few suggestions as to cause, might as well eliminate everything.

I had a couple of losses a while ago and explored everything, did the water changes and as a last resort before going down the chemical road I stripped down the external filter for a good clean (Just in case). It had only been installed for a couple of months and really did not need the maintenence. Anyway it transpired that I had left the carbon sponge in it for all this time, it must have been giving up and returning all its good work back into the nice clean water! Once removed all went back to normal and everyones happy now. Especially the cat (loads of action going on now).
Good Luck
Please keep us posted.
Steve

"papalulu" wrote in message
news

Gill Passman Wrote:
Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank
and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check
this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the
water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at
5.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy
Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes
are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If
the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move
them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of
for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can
do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Thanks
Gill

Gill
I have been reading through this problem with the fish losses. It
appears most avenues have been explored. But am I right in thinking
this tank is in a separate room from the others? Could the cause
possibly be from outside? for example, spray polish/air freshners.

You say this happens at night, is the room sealed at night? Have you
decorated recently. Open fire? gas fire/boiler
Have you had any carpets dry cleaned.
Just a few suggestions as to cause, might as well eliminate
everything.

I had a couple of losses a while ago and explored everything, did the
water changes and as a last resort before going down the chemical road
I stripped down the external filter for a good clean (Just in case). It
had only been installed for a couple of months and really did not need
the maintenence. Anyway it transpired that I had left the carbon sponge
in it for all this time, it must have been giving up and returning all
its good work back into the nice clean water! Once removed all went
back to normal and everyones happy now. Especially the cat (loads of
action going on now).
Good Luck
Please keep us posted.
Steve


--
papalulu

Hi Steve,
Thanks for the post. There are two tanks in the room. No changes been made
to the room. Fortunately the losses seem to have stopped now and the three
remaining fish are fine.

We are still looking at redoing the tank

Thanks
Gill

Gill Passman wrote:

Please keep us posted.
Steve


--
papalulu


Hi Steve,
Thanks for the post. There are two tanks in the room. No changes been made
to the room. Fortunately the losses seem to have stopped now and the three
remaining fish are fine.

We are still looking at redoing the tank

Thanks
Gill



Hi Gill,
Because the tank seems to have settled down, why not carry on with it
for a few more months before breakdown? Were it my aquarium I'd let
things stabilize completely with continued proper feeding and
maintenance, and without adding any more fish.

Tank breakdown may cause loss of beneficial bacteria from substrate and
tank walls. The whole process can stress the fish, possibly leading to
more losses. Just some thoughts.
Steve (in Canada)

"Steve" wrote in message
...
Gill Passman wrote:

Please keep us posted.
Steve


--
papalulu


Hi Steve,
Thanks for the post. There are two tanks in the room. No changes been
made
to the room. Fortunately the losses seem to have stopped now and the
three
remaining fish are fine.

We are still looking at redoing the tank

Thanks
Gill



Hi Gill,
Because the tank seems to have settled down, why not carry on with it
for a few more months before breakdown? Were it my aquarium I'd let
things stabilize completely with continued proper feeding and
maintenance, and without adding any more fish.

Tank breakdown may cause loss of beneficial bacteria from substrate and
tank walls. The whole process can stress the fish, possibly leading to
more losses. Just some thoughts.
Steve (in Canada)

The fish would be rehoused in a mature, cycled tank before any tank
breakdown. The main reason for thinking of doing this was for Matt's benefit
as he was quite upset as we kept losing the fish and feeling very negative
about the tank (see earlier posts_. However having talked to Matt (who's
tank it is) he wants to leave it now it is settled, which IMO is what I
think we should do....so agree with you.

The only thing that does niggle me is the gravel which I don't think is the
best for keeping clean. Maybe after we are sure all is settled we'll look at
doing a gradual change of this.

Thanks
Gill

Gill Passman wrote:

We are still looking at redoing the tank

Thanks
Gill



Hi Gill,
Because the tank seems to have settled down, why not carry on with it
for a few more months before breakdown? Were it my aquarium I'd let
things stabilize completely with continued proper feeding and
maintenance, and without adding any more fish.

Tank breakdown may cause loss of beneficial bacteria from substrate and
tank walls. The whole process can stress the fish, possibly leading to
more losses. Just some thoughts.
Steve (in Canada)


The fish would be rehoused in a mature, cycled tank before any tank
breakdown. The main reason for thinking of doing this was for Matt's benefit
as he was quite upset as we kept losing the fish and feeling very negative
about the tank (see earlier posts_. However having talked to Matt (who's
tank it is) he wants to leave it now it is settled, which IMO is what I
think we should do....so agree with you.

The only thing that does niggle me is the gravel which I don't think is the
best for keeping clean. Maybe after we are sure all is settled we'll look at
doing a gradual change of this.

Thanks
Gill



Hi Gill,
You mentioned you're using coarse pea gravel that can trap more uneaten
food than a finer or mixed-size substrate. I think you're right in
wanting to eventually change it, however diligent weekly/ biweekly
gravel vacuuming (don't disturb plant roots too much) and moderate
twice-a-day feeding (fish will eat most food before it enters the
substrate) would probably make for a healthy aquarium, despite the pea
gravel. You'll have an idea of whether much food is being trapped, by
any "flaky" grunge recovered with the gravel vacuum. From your posts it
sounds like you have an excellent understanding of aquarium maintenance,
in any case!

In an earlier post in this thread, I reported being very happy with
eco-complete plant substrate, to which I changed my big aquarium all at
once. If you wish try an all-at once substrate change, it might be best
to let the aquarium settle down for a few months as you are planning,
before attempting it. Happy aquarium-keeping!
Steve (in Canada)