what to do with overflow?

the return area of the sump is only 3 gallons, so it gets "dry" fast. I
could try to make bigger sump, or ... maybe making new teeth in overflow
skimming box could do the trick?



"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
link.net...
Get a biger sump, and/or improve your overflow.

Your water level in the sump will drop when the pump is running, and go
back up when the pump is not. Does the tank come close to overflowing, or
does the tank water level run at a normal level?

Wayne Sallee


Charles Spitzer wrote:
"TekCat" wrote in message
...

I have a Quietflow 600 hang on overflow box... supposedly it should take
care of 600GPh. Also I have pump that is pumping from sump to the tank,
it
is Dolphin DP 560. With 2' head loss the chart says it would output
460GPH.
So far so good, but the overflow doesn't seem to take 460gph quite well,
I
get my sump's return area empty very quickly, this means one thing that
the
pump pumps faster than overflow can handle. Any thoughts on how to solve
this?


throttle the output side of the pump, or get another/bigger overflow.

How many gallons of fluctuation are you getting between
pump on, and pump off?
What's the size of your tank?

Wayne Sallee


TekCat wrote:
the return area of the sump is only 3 gallons, so it gets "dry" fast. I
could try to make bigger sump, or ... maybe making new teeth in overflow
skimming box could do the trick?



"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
link.net...

Get a biger sump, and/or improve your overflow.

Your water level in the sump will drop when the pump is running, and go
back up when the pump is not. Does the tank come close to overflowing, or
does the tank water level run at a normal level?

Wayne Sallee


Charles Spitzer wrote:

"TekCat" wrote in message
...


I have a Quietflow 600 hang on overflow box... supposedly it should take
care of 600GPh. Also I have pump that is pumping from sump to the tank,
it
is Dolphin DP 560. With 2' head loss the chart says it would output
460GPH.
So far so good, but the overflow doesn't seem to take 460gph quite well,
I
get my sump's return area empty very quickly, this means one thing that
the
pump pumps faster than overflow can handle. Any thoughts on how to solve
this?


throttle the output side of the pump, or get another/bigger overflow.

i'm curious, why would increasing the size of the sump work? i would think
that since the pump is emptying it, eventually either the pump will empty
the sump and run dry, or the tank will overflow because not enough water is
coming out of it.

"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
link.net...
How many gallons of fluctuation are you getting between pump on, and pump
off?
What's the size of your tank?

Wayne Sallee


TekCat wrote:
the return area of the sump is only 3 gallons, so it gets "dry" fast. I
could try to make bigger sump, or ... maybe making new teeth in overflow
skimming box could do the trick?



"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
link.net...

Get a biger sump, and/or improve your overflow.

Your water level in the sump will drop when the pump is running, and go
back up when the pump is not. Does the tank come close to overflowing, or
does the tank water level run at a normal level?

Wayne Sallee


Charles Spitzer wrote:

"TekCat" wrote in message
...


I have a Quietflow 600 hang on overflow box... supposedly it should
take
care of 600GPh. Also I have pump that is pumping from sump to the
tank, it
is Dolphin DP 560. With 2' head loss the chart says it would output
460GPH.
So far so good, but the overflow doesn't seem to take 460gph quite
well, I
get my sump's return area empty very quickly, this means one thing that
the
pump pumps faster than overflow can handle. Any thoughts on how to
solve
this?


throttle the output side of the pump, or get another/bigger overflow.

Because I don't think that is the true problem. Maybe the
overflow lets the water fluctuate more than he wants, but
I think that the bigest problem that he is having, is that
the water volume in the sump is so small that it does not
give him adiquate room for that fluctuation.

Wayne Sallee


Charles Spitzer wrote:
i'm curious, why would increasing the size of the sump work? i would think
that since the pump is emptying it, eventually either the pump will empty
the sump and run dry, or the tank will overflow because not enough water is
coming out of it.

"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
link.net...

How many gallons of fluctuation are you getting between pump on, and pump
off?
What's the size of your tank?

Wayne Sallee


TekCat wrote:

the return area of the sump is only 3 gallons, so it gets "dry" fast. I
could try to make bigger sump, or ... maybe making new teeth in overflow
skimming box could do the trick?



"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
rthlink.net...


Get a biger sump, and/or improve your overflow.

Your water level in the sump will drop when the pump is running, and go
back up when the pump is not. Does the tank come close to overflowing, or
does the tank water level run at a normal level?

Wayne Sallee


Charles Spitzer wrote:


"TekCat" wrote in message
...



I have a Quietflow 600 hang on overflow box... supposedly it should
take
care of 600GPh. Also I have pump that is pumping from sump to the
tank, it
is Dolphin DP 560. With 2' head loss the chart says it would output
460GPH.
So far so good, but the overflow doesn't seem to take 460gph quite
well, I
get my sump's return area empty very quickly, this means one thing that
the
pump pumps faster than overflow can handle. Any thoughts on how to
solve
this?


throttle the output side of the pump, or get another/bigger overflow.

Wayne Sallee wrote:
Because I don't think that is the true problem. Maybe the overflow lets
the water fluctuate more than he wants, but I think that the bigest
problem that he is having, is that the water volume in the sump is so
small that it does not give him adiquate room for that fluctuation.

Wayne Sallee


Charles Spitzer wrote:



Correct.

Depending on the size of the tank, if the water level raises 1/4 of an
inch it could be more than 1.5 gallons of water alone, let alone the
water in the pipes. 3 gallons is not much water, and most overflows
depending on the tooth arrangement can use up to 1/2 or even 3/4 of on
inch of water to build up before they are close to max flow, and if the
overflow needs 3/4 of on inch of water in a 72x18 tank, that would be
around 4 gallons of water, so the sump would run dry before the overflow
got to max flow rate..... An of course if he has a long pipe run with
large pipe there could be a gallon of water in the return pipe also.


Kim

Exactly, I toyed with lowering overflow skim box below the tank's water
line. This created a lot more flow to the sump, and return area didn't run
dry, however this is not acceptable arangement ( sump won't take THAT much
water if pump fails or power goes down).

So far I have two options. First, redesign return area to be as large as
possible. Second is to make more "teeth" in the overflow surface skimmer
box. (or widen them up)

I'd like to explore first option to the fullest extent before I start
grinding teeth in the overwflow box.


"kim gross" wrote in message
...
Wayne Sallee wrote:
Because I don't think that is the true problem. Maybe the overflow lets
the water fluctuate more than he wants, but I think that the bigest
problem that he is having, is that the water volume in the sump is so
small that it does not give him adiquate room for that fluctuation.

Wayne Sallee


Charles Spitzer wrote:



Correct.

Depending on the size of the tank, if the water level raises 1/4 of an
inch it could be more than 1.5 gallons of water alone, let alone the water
in the pipes. 3 gallons is not much water, and most overflows depending
on the tooth arrangement can use up to 1/2 or even 3/4 of on inch of water
to build up before they are close to max flow, and if the overflow needs
3/4 of on inch of water in a 72x18 tank, that would be around 4 gallons of
water, so the sump would run dry before the overflow got to max flow
rate..... An of course if he has a long pipe run with large pipe there
could be a gallon of water in the return pipe also.


Kim

How high over the box does the water rise?

Wayne Sallee



TekCat wrote:
Exactly, I toyed with lowering overflow skim box below the tank's water
line. This created a lot more flow to the sump, and return area didn't run
dry, however this is not acceptable arangement ( sump won't take THAT much
water if pump fails or power goes down).

So far I have two options. First, redesign return area to be as large as
possible. Second is to make more "teeth" in the overflow surface skimmer
box. (or widen them up)

I'd like to explore first option to the fullest extent before I start
grinding teeth in the overwflow box.


"kim gross" wrote in message
...

Wayne Sallee wrote:

Because I don't think that is the true problem. Maybe the overflow lets
the water fluctuate more than he wants, but I think that the bigest
problem that he is having, is that the water volume in the sump is so
small that it does not give him adiquate room for that fluctuation.

Wayne Sallee


Charles Spitzer wrote:



Correct.

Depending on the size of the tank, if the water level raises 1/4 of an
inch it could be more than 1.5 gallons of water alone, let alone the water
in the pipes. 3 gallons is not much water, and most overflows depending
on the tooth arrangement can use up to 1/2 or even 3/4 of on inch of water
to build up before they are close to max flow, and if the overflow needs
3/4 of on inch of water in a 72x18 tank, that would be around 4 gallons of
water, so the sump would run dry before the overflow got to max flow
rate..... An of course if he has a long pipe run with large pipe there
could be a gallon of water in the return pipe also.


Kim

"Charles Spitzer" wrote in message ...
i'm curious, why would increasing the size of the sump work? i would think
that since the pump is emptying it, eventually either the pump will empty
the sump and run dry, or the tank will overflow because not enough water is
coming out of it.

It is quite simple. The flow of water through the overflow
depends on the difference of water levels between the tank
and the overflow other side...
The bigger the difference the greater the flow.

At the begining, when you turn your pump on, the pump
pumps normaly fast but the overflow does not let the water
go fast enough... Over time, when the water in the tank
rises, the pressure build up on both sides of the overflow
syphon and the speed of water flowing through the overflow
increases until it will equalize with the pump output...

And now, if it takes more than 3 gallons to make up
the big enough water level difference on both sides
of the overflow then the sump will run dry before the
overflow will reach its maximum water output...

I would propose an experiment... :-)
Take a big bucket, like an empty Instant Ocean salt container.
Its volume is about 6 gallons. (the new style is smaller...)
Drop your submersible pump into the bucket, low on the
bottom and fill up the bucket with the salt mix (same
temperature, salnity to be mixed with your tank water).
Drop the hose from the overflow to the bucket as well...
Turn on the pump and see that your overflow is good enough :-)

All you need is a bigger sump. At least bigger pump
compartment. Your tank is simply too big for the sump
and the water in the tank does not rise fast enough
to fuel the overflow.

Ok, I am building new sump! I have another 10G tank that would be
transformed into the sump.
Now, It is going to be two section sump: skimmer-return.

I'm assuming you have a reef tank. Reef tanks don't need a
wet dry, so I'm assuming you don't have a wet dry, but a
sump. Since all you need is a sump, I would get a bigger
tank for a sump, rather than try to hook up a secnd 10
gallon tank.

Wayne Sallee


TekCat wrote:
Ok, I am building new sump! I have another 10G tank that would be
transformed into the sump.
Now, It is going to be two section sump: skimmer-return.