Tank cleaning possibilities

Hi GF fans,
I am considering the inevitable needs of tank cleaning, and want to bounce
an idea off of you.
I have an undergravel system, with about and inch +/- of stone. What I
propose to do is buy a D.E. filter, which traps all particles down to 1
micron. Put the fish into a holding bowl with some of the tank water, and
an air stone. Remove the air stone and top piece from the undergravel
riser tube, and connect the input from the D.E. filter directly to the
riser. Use the exhaust jet from the D.E. filter as an agitator to move the
stone/sludge around and just let it flow into the bottom intake screen of
the undergravel system. This would just produce a loop of water that traps
all the debris in the D.E. filter for disposal. I also plan to do a 25%
change out at the same time.


My main concerns are . . .

- Will this introduce too many organics into the water by disolving the
waste products to smaller that 1 micron?
- Is the Dietimacous Earth (forgive spelling) safe for GF tank chemistry?
- Would a less efficient canister filter and powerhead be better suited for
this?
- Should I use manual agitation, and just let the water circulate through
the whole tank?
- Would it be better to just use the D.E. Filter as a power vacuum, and
leave the bottom basically undisturbed?
- What brand/size of D.E. filter would be adequate?
- Has anyone ever done this, and what were your results?
--
With all due respect
Kevin

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Bottom and mid posted.

- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
wrote in message
...
Hi GF fans,
I am considering the inevitable needs of tank cleaning, and want to
bounce
an idea off of you.
I have an undergravel system, with about and inch +/- of stone. What I
propose to do is buy a D.E. filter, which traps all particles down to 1
micron. Put the fish into a holding bowl with some of the tank water,
and
an air stone. Remove the air stone and top piece from the undergravel
riser tube, and connect the input from the D.E. filter directly to the
riser. Use the exhaust jet from the D.E. filter as an agitator to move
the
stone/sludge around and just let it flow into the bottom intake screen
of
the undergravel system. This would just produce a loop of water that
traps
all the debris in the D.E. filter for disposal. I also plan to do a 25%
change out at the same time.


My main concerns are . . .

- Will this introduce too many organics into the water by disolving the
waste products to smaller that 1 micron?

Your method will not "dissolve" the pollutants to smaller than 1 micron -
the diatomaceous earth filter simply will not allow particles larger than 1
micron out through the exhaust of the filter, the larger particles are
trapped in the filter to be dumped out/removed later by you.


- Is the Dietimacous Earth (forgive spelling) safe for GF tank chemistry?

It should work great - but don't use swimming pool diatomaceous earth, only
use diatomaceous earth you are sure is safe for aquariums.


- Would a less efficient canister filter and powerhead be better suited
for
this?
- Should I use manual agitation, and just let the water circulate through
the whole tank?

Wouldn't work as good, some pollution/particles would remain in significant
quantities, but that sure would be much better than nothing.


- Would it be better to just use the D.E. Filter as a power vacuum, and
leave the bottom basically undisturbed?

As long as you maintain your maintenance schedule and never significantly
neglect it, your d.e. filter connected to riser stems idea is superior.


- What brand/size of D.E. filter would be adequate?

I like the idea of the magnum 350 as it won't hurt fry but you might never
have to deal with fry, and it sometimes comes with a gravel cleaner which
you could use in place of the riser stem connection but to be honest I think
you riser stem to d.e. filter seems even better (significantly). To be
honest I own and rarely if ever have to use a vortex xl d.e. filter and it
is almost as good as the magnum because the magnum is easy to open from the
looks of it. The vortex is difficult to open and close for scooping out fry
both because of the bottleneck of it's jar and the d.e. bag often comes off
when opening, and it is hard to get a perfect seal with the vortex as
diatomaceous earth often "grits" the rubber "o" ring that seals the jar to
the main body of the vortex.


- Has anyone ever done this, and what were your results?

I've never done what you are proposing but I have done similar things that
supports your future success with it. By the way - the vortex has an
accessory that works as a gravel vacuum as well. Overall I recommend the
magnum 350 but still appreciate the vortex xl that I own, it may come in
handy some day. I don't use undergravel filters myself but have them in
second place as practical biological filters, the first being biowheels.


--
With all due respect
Kevin

Good luck and later!

P.s. now that I think about it I realize that an actual gravel vac like the
magnum 350 deluxe kit (cheap for a d.e. filter kit) might work better, so if
you want to cover all bases get the magnum 350 d.e. canister filter with the
gravel vac accessory. That way you should be covered/insured no matter what
happens.

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One last thing - the magnum 350 is technically not a diatomaceous earth
filter but it still can filter down to 1 micron with it's micron cartridge.
It might clog faster than a vortex xl d.e. filter though. Good luck and
later!
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Bottom posted.

- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
"Daniel Morrow" wrote in message
...
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One last thing - the magnum 350 is technically not a diatomaceous
earth
filter but it still can filter down to 1 micron with it's micron
cartridge.
It might clog faster than a vortex xl d.e. filter though. Good luck
and
later!


Also - you can by a gravel vac gravity siphon powered gravel cleaner
for around $10.00 these days, and they work good but they siphon
water out at the same time you are gravel vacing so it probably isn't
as efficient in smaller tanks and maybe even in frequent operation
compared to a magnum 350 or a vortex xl. I always use one of those
gravity powered gravel vacs for frequent water change/vac but might
get into a magnum 350 setup sometime soon. Good luck and later!

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I'll have to check into the Magnum line. The Vortex is just the first one
I've checked out. I do know that DE filters are great from my childhood
experience of caring for the family swimming pool. I was told that DE is DE
no matter how it's packaged. Is the stuff for pools less refined or treated
with other chemicals?

--
With all due respect
Kevin

wrote in message
...
I'll have to check into the Magnum line. The Vortex is just the first one
I've checked out. I do know that DE filters are great from my childhood
experience of caring for the family swimming pool. I was told that DE is
DE
no matter how it's packaged. Is the stuff for pools less refined or
treated
with other chemicals?

--
With all due respect
Kevin

I just bought a Vortex XL. Seems to do a nice job, but the quality seems a
bit iffy. Mine gave off a horrible smell the first time I used it. It seems
to be the oil they used on the motor, rather than the windings. I've cleaned
up some of the excess oil and the smell seems to have died down a bit.

BTW, I sent the company an email about the problem, but they never bothered
to reply. This is a major turn off for any product in my book.

Thanks for the input Bill. This is exactly why I like to bounce things off
of this group before I make the plunge with my money and fish wellbeing.

--
With all due respect
Kevin

wrote in message
...
I'll have to check into the Magnum line. The Vortex is just the first one
I've checked out. I do know that DE filters are great from my childhood
experience of caring for the family swimming pool. I was told that DE is
DE
no matter how it's packaged. Is the stuff for pools less refined or
treated
with other chemicals?
============================
I've been using the one for human pools and my fish are fine! I bought it
at Home Depot for a fraction of the price I paid for the last bag in a pet
shop. In fact, I don't even see it in the fish stores in those sacks
anymore. I'm wondering if they still carry the 10 lb bags.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

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Hash: SHA1

Bottom posted.

- --
You can find my public key at https://keyserver1.pgp.com
wrote in message
...
I'll have to check into the Magnum line. The Vortex is just the
first one
I've checked out. I do know that DE filters are great from my
childhood
experience of caring for the family swimming pool. I was told that
DE is DE
no matter how it's packaged. Is the stuff for pools less refined or
treated
with other chemicals?

--
With all due respect
Kevin

That was just a blanket answer from me - if you can fine PURE
diatomaceous earth sold by a swimming pool supplier then you are good
to go and will probably save money. My answer was about some
chemicals sometimes added to diatomaceous earth for other purposes
(i.e. I imagine some swimming pool suppliers might mix chlorine with
the diatomaceous earth for example). All I am saying is that you need
PURE diatomaceous earth if you want to be absolutely sure it is safe.
My vortex xl also puts out an oily smell like the other posters did,
but it didn't seem strong to me (the smell) and the filter works
almost perfectly (i.e. the only imperfection in my experience with
the vortex xl is that the unit is hard to disassemble after every use
if you intend to save/rescue baby fry to make sure none die from
being stuck in it). Stay away from the system 1 pressure filter - it
isn't nearly as flexible as a vortex and in fact can overheat from
what I have read (after a few hours of continuous use), hoses are
good - especially under certain circumstances such as shallow tanks.
Again hoses are good as they are more flexible. To top it off I see
the system 1 sold for more than a vortex without any of the important
benefits the vortex xl has. Good luck and later!

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wrote in message
...
Hi GF fans,
I am considering the inevitable needs of tank cleaning, and want to
bounce
an idea off of you.
I have an undergravel system, with about and inch +/- of stone. What I
propose to do is buy a D.E. filter, which traps all particles down to 1
micron. Put the fish into a holding bowl with some of the tank water, and
an air stone. Remove the air stone and top piece from the undergravel
riser tube, and connect the input from the D.E. filter directly to the
riser. Use the exhaust jet from the D.E. filter as an agitator to move
the
stone/sludge around and just let it flow into the bottom intake screen of
the undergravel system. This would just produce a loop of water that
traps
all the debris in the D.E. filter for disposal. I also plan to do a 25%
change out at the same time.


My main concerns are . . .

- Will this introduce too many organics into the water by disolving the
waste products to smaller that 1 micron?
- Is the Dietimacous Earth (forgive spelling) safe for GF tank chemistry?
- Would a less efficient canister filter and powerhead be better suited
for
this?

I believe this is the tried and true method, but your idea s/b safe and
effective.

Although I'm not sure what your UGF is buying you if you're using stones
rather than gravel. ie. the large grain size isn't adding much to your
Biofilter. If the UGF isn't your only source of filtration, I would be
tempted to just remove it. They tend to be bad news with GF.


- Should I use manual agitation, and just let the water circulate through
the whole tank?
- Would it be better to just use the D.E. Filter as a power vacuum, and
leave the bottom basically undisturbed?
- What brand/size of D.E. filter would be adequate?
- Has anyone ever done this, and what were your results?
--
With all due respect
Kevin