bettas in plastic cups

because they can, is the short answer. they breathe air so they can
survive for much longer than other tropical fish under these bad
conditions... also the males dont mix with other males, in better fish
stores they keep the females together in a tank.

so its not whats best for them, but unfortunetly theres a trend of
keeping these fish in small cups and fish bowls. but when put in
larger tanks even with other fish, there happier with swimming space.
mines in a 120 and absolutely loves it.

so in conclusion bettas raised in these cups will die very young and
in my opinion not have a very comfortable life. its a shame such a
curious fish is often given so little to work with.

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:40:12 -0500, Steve wrote:

With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about bettas
in plastic cups? Why are they offered for sale this way? The losses must
be great and the fish don't look attractive for purchase.

Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups? Is it for transport, or
are they raised in there? Thanks for any information.

Steve


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i keep mine in a 120 with tiger barbs and a few other aggressive fish.
the key is to grow plants to the top so they always have safe spots
and can swim unnoticed. occasionally when exploring you may see your
betta rush back to his plants. until the plants grow in you may hang a
large ordiment from the top, which also gives your betta good
protection in community tanks.

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:15:11 -0500, Steve wrote:

Might a male betta make a wise addition to my planted 90 gallon
aquarium? I suspect not, because it has two male blue gourami (possible
fighting?) and some fast swimmers such as zebra danios, dwarf neon
rainbowfish and one large "miscellaneous" rainbowfish that came in with
the dwarfs.

Steve


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With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about bettas
in plastic cups? Why are they offered for sale this way? The losses must
be great and the fish don't look attractive for purchase.

Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups? Is it for transport, or
are they raised in there? Thanks for any information.

Steve

Steve wrote:
With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about bettas
in plastic cups? Why are they offered for sale this way? The losses must
be great and the fish don't look attractive for purchase.

Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups? Is it for transport, or
are they raised in there? Thanks for any information.

Steve


IMO if you are buying any fish you need to provide them with adequate
and suitable accomodation as you would any pet.....I would never keep a
fish such as a betta in anything other than a heated, filtered 5 gall
(UK) tank....it is not possible to buy anything smaller at the reputable
places I shop....that being said I do understand that bettas can be kept
successfully in smaller, filtered, heated tanks quite happily - although
I would think that probably a 2 gall would be the minimum....anything
less and without the adequate provisions for what is a tropical fish IMO
is cruel on a long term basis - afterall they need room to swim. Now
obviously when breeding bettas a 2 gall tank for each of the fry is
impractical which is why I believe most reputable breeders would go for
a heated room therefore ensuring that the fish are kept at the right
temps and smaller containers with more frequent water changes - in most
cases, other than the very committed hobbyiest breeding these fish is a
business and it is in the breeders interest for the fish to survive...at
least til they hit the shops...

Now, I don't breed bettas, although I do have two males that both live
in their 20L (5UK gall) tanks....I would never consider keeping them in
a cup or small bowl...to me, it just doesn't seem right....

There is a trend, (horrible market), for selling bettas in vases...they
are condemed to living in a small vase with a non-aquatic plant taking
up most of the air space (so they had limited real air to breath). I
believe the advice was that they would live on the plant roots - but
bettas are carnivorous....the idea as far as I can see is that these
fish were treated as ornaments rather than live animals....as expendable
as a bunch of flowers....what you are describing very much smacks of
this type of mentality...."look you can own a fish that can survive in a
cup" - absolute rubbish - and by your question I can very much see that
you are of the same opinion....

All of this is based on my research, what I have heard from other more
experienced betta keepers, the contentment of my bettas in their 5 gall
tanks and a gut feeling that it is just so, so very wrong to provide any
living creature with cramped conditions where they just survive rather
than have any quality of life....hey, ho JMO

Gill

"Steve" wrote in message
. ..
With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about bettas in
plastic cups? Why are they offered for sale this way?

## Because they can't mix bettas together in one bag as they do the other
types of fish. It's the most economical way to ship them. There doesn't
seem to be an laws or rules regarding the care and welfare of fish. There
should be but there isn't from what I can see. The real abuse comes in when
they reach the stores or pet-shops where they are not properly cared for or
fed. They sit in their filthy water until it evaporates and they die, or
the toxic waste in the small container kills them. Wal*Mart stores carry
them in much larger containers but they're just as filthy and foul smelling.
The female I bought a few weeks ago was literally in a cesspool of filth.

The losses must
be great and the fish don't look attractive for purchase.

## This is true in some chain-stores where the workers are either clueless
or couldn't care less. About 10% of them were already dead in a store I
visited yesterday. Some were already decomposed in their filthy containers.
Talk about cruelty. Those in PetsMart were in pretty good shape but in very
small cups.

Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups? Is it for transport, or
are they raised in there? Thanks for any information.

## That would depend on what breeder they got them from. They must be
separated at some point to keep the finnage from being marred so the
breeders have to house them in something. I'm sure the big breeders have
some type of flow-through systems now. No one is changing the water in
thousands of small containers or jars. Those I saw years ago utilized all
types of glass containers. Most held no more than 2 cups of water. They
were "bagged" the day they were taken to the stores. The stores in that
area put them in those small ivy bowls that hold about 8 oz of water. If
the betta was lucky his new owner put him in something larger.
Unfortunately I saw people buy the same tiny ivy bowls to keep them in - no
gravel, no plants. I always felt the fish was going to his death. But I've
had people tell me they had bettas live several years in such small bowls.
Now I believe most bettas are imported. So they're probably in those small
cups for a few days by the time they reach the pet stores. One store here
puts the bettas in a filtered betta tank that has partitions and a
flow-through filter system of some kind.
I stopped breeding them back in the late 60s because there wasn't enough of
a market, nor did I get enough per fish to make it worth while, plus I had a
full time job - so I gave it up. I enjoyed it while I did it though. :-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Gill Passman wrote:
Steve wrote:

With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about bettas
in plastic cups? Why are they offered for sale this way? The losses
must be great and the fish don't look attractive for purchase.

Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups? Is it for transport,
or are they raised in there? Thanks for any information.

Steve



IMO if you are buying any fish you need to provide them with adequate
and suitable accomodation as you would any pet.....I would never keep a
fish such as a betta in anything other than a heated, filtered 5 gall
(UK) tank....it is not possible to buy anything smaller at the reputable
places I shop....that being said I do understand that bettas can be kept
successfully in smaller, filtered, heated tanks quite happily - although
I would think that probably a 2 gall would be the minimum....anything
less and without the adequate provisions for what is a tropical fish IMO
is cruel on a long term basis - afterall they need room to swim. Now
obviously when breeding bettas a 2 gall tank for each of the fry is
impractical which is why I believe most reputable breeders would go for
a heated room therefore ensuring that the fish are kept at the right
temps and smaller containers with more frequent water changes - in most
cases, other than the very committed hobbyiest breeding these fish is a
business and it is in the breeders interest for the fish to survive...at
least til they hit the shops...

Now, I don't breed bettas, although I do have two males that both live
in their 20L (5UK gall) tanks....I would never consider keeping them in
a cup or small bowl...to me, it just doesn't seem right....

There is a trend, (horrible market), for selling bettas in vases...they
are condemed to living in a small vase with a non-aquatic plant taking
up most of the air space (so they had limited real air to breath). I
believe the advice was that they would live on the plant roots - but
bettas are carnivorous....the idea as far as I can see is that these
fish were treated as ornaments rather than live animals....as expendable
as a bunch of flowers....what you are describing very much smacks of
this type of mentality...."look you can own a fish that can survive in a
cup" - absolute rubbish - and by your question I can very much see that
you are of the same opinion....

All of this is based on my research, what I have heard from other more
experienced betta keepers, the contentment of my bettas in their 5 gall
tanks and a gut feeling that it is just so, so very wrong to provide any
living creature with cramped conditions where they just survive rather
than have any quality of life....hey, ho JMO

Gill



Gill,
Thanks for sharing your betta experiences. I've had 3 male bettas in
long history of keeping aquariums, and two lasted less than a year for
me. The last one lasted perhaps 1.5 year, and it was in a planted,
heated, unfiltered 2 gallon plastic aquarium.

Stores housing/ selling bettas in plastic cups is a trend here in
Canada; its virtually impossible to find bettas in large aquariums in
the stores. All the betta discussion here lately prompted my
question. I'm really quite curious about the reasons behind plastic cup
bettas, although I think the fish stores expect customers to move their
bettas to something larger than a cup once they get home.
Steve

Koi-lo wrote:

"Steve" wrote in message
. ..

With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about bettas
in plastic cups? Why are they offered for sale this way?


## Because they can't mix bettas together in one bag as they do the
other types of fish. It's the most economical way to ship them. There
doesn't seem to be an laws or rules regarding the care and welfare of
fish. There should be but there isn't from what I can see. The real
abuse comes in when they reach the stores or pet-shops where they are
not properly cared for or fed. They sit in their filthy water until it
evaporates and they die, or the toxic waste in the small container kills
them. Wal*Mart stores carry them in much larger containers but they're
just as filthy and foul smelling. The female I bought a few weeks ago
was literally in a cesspool of filth.

The losses must

be great and the fish don't look attractive for purchase.


## This is true in some chain-stores where the workers are either
clueless or couldn't care less. About 10% of them were already dead in
a store I visited yesterday. Some were already decomposed in their
filthy containers. Talk about cruelty. Those in PetsMart were in pretty
good shape but in very small cups.

Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups? Is it for transport,
or are they raised in there? Thanks for any information.


## That would depend on what breeder they got them from. They must be
separated at some point to keep the finnage from being marred so the
breeders have to house them in something. I'm sure the big breeders
have some type of flow-through systems now. No one is changing the
water in thousands of small containers or jars. Those I saw years ago
utilized all types of glass containers. Most held no more than 2 cups
of water. They were "bagged" the day they were taken to the stores.
The stores in that area put them in those small ivy bowls that hold
about 8 oz of water. If the betta was lucky his new owner put him in
something larger. Unfortunately I saw people buy the same tiny ivy bowls
to keep them in - no gravel, no plants. I always felt the fish was
going to his death. But I've had people tell me they had bettas live
several years in such small bowls. Now I believe most bettas are
imported. So they're probably in those small cups for a few days by the
time they reach the pet stores. One store here puts the bettas in a
filtered betta tank that has partitions and a flow-through filter system
of some kind.
I stopped breeding them back in the late 60s because there wasn't enough
of a market, nor did I get enough per fish to make it worth while, plus
I had a full time job - so I gave it up. I enjoyed it while I did it
though. :-)

Thanks, that's informative. As mentioned to another poster, I haven't
had great success with bettas. The single male bettas I kept in approx
15 gal community aquariums with other small fish each lasted about 9mo
to 1 year. The one I recently kept by itself in a heated, planted,
unfiltered 2 gallon aquarium lasted about 1.5 years. This raises a
couple of questions:

Are bettas relatively old when shipped, and expected to live only
another year?

Are bettas healthier and happier when kept by themselves?

Might a male betta make a wise addition to my planted 90 gallon
aquarium? I suspect not, because it has two male blue gourami (possible
fighting?) and some fast swimmers such as zebra danios, dwarf neon
rainbowfish and one large "miscellaneous" rainbowfish that came in with
the dwarfs.

Steve

dddd wrote:
i keep mine in a 120 with tiger barbs and a few other aggressive fish.
the key is to grow plants to the top so they always have safe spots
and can swim unnoticed. occasionally when exploring you may see your
betta rush back to his plants. until the plants grow in you may hang a
large ordiment from the top, which also gives your betta good
protection in community tanks.


Thanks. My giant Val grow all over the tank surface, so maybe I'll try a
betta and see how it goes. The only problem is, I have nowhere suitable
to put the betta if it doesn't work out. The 2 gal aquarium is now a
snail-raising tank and too stinky for fish .

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:15:11 -0500, Steve wrote:


Might a male betta make a wise addition to my planted 90 gallon
aquarium? I suspect not, because it has two male blue gourami (possible
fighting?) and some fast swimmers such as zebra danios, dwarf neon
rainbowfish and one large "miscellaneous" rainbowfish that came in with
the dwarfs.

Steve



Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

"Steve" wrote in message
. ..
With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about bettas
in plastic cups?

Sure, I'll do my best.

Why are they offered for sale this way?

Space, visibility & time. Stores might sell 20 a week, and not have 20
different aquariums to be able to keep them singly. They showcase
quickly for comparison when they are in the same area. A customer
looking for a Betta can do a quick comparison in a few minutes, rather
than going from tank to tank looking for them.

The losses must be great and the fish don't look attractive for
purchase.

Overall, probably not worst. Their isolation provides a degree of
protection from the diseases so common in the LFS. They are typically
underfed, which could be worst as they are also typically inadequately
maintained (water changes), and if fed regularly, would die in their own
wastes. They are usually predominantly displayed, and cadavers don't
make the store look good, so there is usually some effort to either
discontinue the practice, or keep an eye on them.

I was in the process of making a Betta shelf where I worked as I wanted
to build a lit bookcase to hold them in slightly larger containers
(square glass jars). Until then, we kept 95% of them on our counter in
cups, but they were under the staff's continuous observations. What
worked best was alternate cleaning and feeding. I had a weekly schedule
for all the fish room maintenance, and every day, the Bettas were either
fed or water changed. Seemed to work well, and we sold a lot of Bettas.
We did have customers with Betta collections, and some would ask when our
Betta delivery days were (to check out the best of the new arrivals).

Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups?

They can be ordered in the cups, or without cups, or with cups seperate.
For local purchases, transport in cups works fine (unless you already
have too many cups). Our store would not sell them in a cup. They were
moved into a bag with proper instructions. Occasionally, a customer
might take the cup (travels well in a cup holder) but only for
transportation purposes.

Imports are transported in tiny individual bags, with about 3oz of water
(enough to keep them wet, but not turn around). Incidentally, we started
receiving other fish in this manner, particularly Rams and Discus. It
looked terrible, but they seemed to travel very well, with very little
losses. Travel cost is basically the weight of the water, so this kept
shipping costs down. However, it would take an hour to process them on
arrival like an assembly line. Using water from a plant tank, partially
fill (but don't overfill) the plastic cup, open the envelope, pop the
fish out, throw the envelope and old water away, snap the cover on, feed
the fish (repeat 150 times). I once ordered 200 Bettas, but that took 3
weeks to sell, and I didn't want them in a cup longer than 2 weeks so I
kept the orders smaller. We even marked the lids every time they were
fed, like a prisoner in a cell, keeping time ;~), (so they wouldn't be in
a cup too long). Any fish who was in a cup too long, went into an
aquarium. Generally they would then color up and sell quickly, so this
worked out. I'm a businessman who is a hobbyist (or perhaps a hobbyist
who played being a businessman for a while ;~), so there was a balance to
achieve.

Is it for transport, or are they raised in there?

Most Bettas come from Asia-Pac countries, China Singapore and Thailand
where hatcheries are huge industrial operations. If you google, you
might find photos. The ones I've seen have the fish being raised in jars
(millions of jars, shelf after shelf, row after row) with an air line and
a terbang tree leaf in each jar. The tanks are not heated (its already
very hot there) or filtered (I believe the fish are rather
unceremoniously moved around into progressively larger jars, as they make
their way to the boxing stations, another *very* interesting process).

Thanks for any information.

cheers & thanks for asking
--
www.NetMax.tk

Steve

dddd wrote in message ...
so in conclusion bettas raised in these cups will die very young and
in my opinion not have a very comfortable life. its a shame such a
curious fish is often given so little to work with.
================
Part of the problem is people who buy them are not encouraged to buy bigger
bowls or small tanks for them. Many bettas are sold as children's pets.
The parents will not spent more than absolutely necessary. They make a
face when you tell them they need chlorine remover and how expensive is
that? How can you get them to spend $40 or more for a tank, filter and
heater? What about a reflector? That's another $10 or more...... try
getting a part-time job in a pet shop or aquarium store and you'll see what
I mean.

When they buy cheap goldfish many of them insist on a bowl, even when you
tell them the fish will soon suffocate and die. They don't seem to care.
Some are just too poor to purchase a tank plus the trappings. They simply
don't have the spare cash.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o