Clown Loaches (Not acting normally?)

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 18:28:25 +0100, Marco Schwarz
wrote:

Hi..

So I put these Clown Loaches in the tank 2 days ago, 3 of
them, to eat the snails.
I have a 20 gallon tank with 18 fish (8 of them are Neon
Tetras), Gouramis, 3 Molly's, the Clown Loaches and
others.

Sorry, personally I would _never_ recommend keeping Clown
Loaches in such a small tank. Do you possibly have any
other (bigger) aquarium?
20g tank:
Substract glas, gravel, roots, stones eventually filter
volume and look what's finally netto..

Marco, I am curious about the attitude that Clowns need more space.
Perhaps size is part of the reason. None of my Clowns have grown much
more than 5 inches. The 2 in my 10 gallon tank seem no different than
the 6 in my 75 gallon tank, similar size, color and behavior. These
Clowns have been in their respective tanks about 2 1/2 years.

Do you have any personal experience which causes your caution about
smaller tanks?

dick

Dick, I also am curiuos about this. I have three clown loaches in a 100
gallon tank, along with a few miscellanous other fish. They are only about
4 or 5 inches long also. I have had them about a year and a half and they
just don't seem to grow any larger. I was told when I got them that they
needed to be in a very large tank because they would get very big, but it's
just not happening yet.

Sarah

Marco, I am curious about the attitude that Clowns need more space.
Perhaps size is part of the reason. None of my Clowns have grown much
more than 5 inches. The 2 in my 10 gallon tank seem no different than
the 6 in my 75 gallon tank, similar size, color and behavior. These
Clowns have been in their respective tanks about 2 1/2 years.

Do you have any personal experience which causes your caution about
smaller tanks?

dick

My Clowns are only 4" long and I've had them for 2 years in a 70g.
Either they are not eating well enough or my water is too hard, and I
should look around to find someone who will take them from me. Generally
they can be slow growing, especially at certain sizes, but I've found
their growth rates are very much affected by water quality and diet.

I think the issue with sizing the tank to the fish is two-fold. Many
people only have one tank, so they need to be warned about the eventual
size of the fish, to be sure they are prepared to adequately accommodate
them. Others like myself & Dick have many tanks, so we can simply rotate
them through increasingly larger tanks as required, or not, if not
needed.

The other issue is that tank size will affect their growth rate, or more
particularly, water quality (which is poorer in small tanks) may stunt
the fish. If moving the fish through tank upgrades, you need to be
slightly ahead of their requirements to not stunt their growth (imo).

A few more issues particular to botia a
- they are shoaling fish, so you need many of them.
- they are bottom dwellers, reducing their useable space to the square
footage of the bottom.
- they can be light sensitive and burrow for shelter and darkness,
further reducing their usable habitat.
Each of these points, should influence us to providing larger habitats.
jmo
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Sarah Navarro" wrote in message
nk.net...
Dick, I also am curiuos about this. I have three clown loaches in a
100 gallon tank, along with a few miscellanous other fish. They are
only about 4 or 5 inches long also. I have had them about a year and a
half and they just don't seem to grow any larger. I was told when I
got them that they needed to be in a very large tank because they would
get very big, but it's just not happening yet.

Sarah

Marco, I am curious about the attitude that Clowns need more space.
Perhaps size is part of the reason. None of my Clowns have grown much
more than 5 inches. The 2 in my 10 gallon tank seem no different than
the 6 in my 75 gallon tank, similar size, color and behavior. These
Clowns have been in their respective tanks about 2 1/2 years.

Do you have any personal experience which causes your caution about
smaller tanks?

dick

NetMax wrote:
My Clowns are only 4" long and I've had them for 2 years in a 70g.
Either they are not eating well enough or my water is too hard, and I
should look around to find someone who will take them from me. Generally
they can be slow growing, especially at certain sizes, but I've found
their growth rates are very much affected by water quality and diet.

I think the issue with sizing the tank to the fish is two-fold. Many
people only have one tank, so they need to be warned about the eventual
size of the fish, to be sure they are prepared to adequately accommodate
them. Others like myself & Dick have many tanks, so we can simply rotate
them through increasingly larger tanks as required, or not, if not
needed.

The other issue is that tank size will affect their growth rate, or more
particularly, water quality (which is poorer in small tanks) may stunt
the fish. If moving the fish through tank upgrades, you need to be
slightly ahead of their requirements to not stunt their growth (imo).

A few more issues particular to botia a
- they are shoaling fish, so you need many of them.
- they are bottom dwellers, reducing their useable space to the square
footage of the bottom.
- they can be light sensitive and burrow for shelter and darkness,
further reducing their usable habitat.
Each of these points, should influence us to providing larger habitats.
jmo
At one of my LFS they have a cl loach for sail that is about 8" in size,
appently the fish is about 15y old.

Hi Netmax,

I do have several tanks, but as I gain experience I am more and more
hesitant about moving my fish between tanks. I have seen "sick" fish
recover in their community tanks.

As to other's comment about "stunted" Clowns, this sounds negative as
I associated stunted with sickness. All of my Clowns healthy and
active. If they are stunted, so much the better. After I got my
Clowns I read the posts warning about potential size. That was over 2
years ago. It has been over a year since I have noticed any new
growth. I will be quite happy if they remain at their current sizes.

dick

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:56:12 -0500, "NetMax"
wrote:

My Clowns are only 4" long and I've had them for 2 years in a 70g.
Either they are not eating well enough or my water is too hard, and I
should look around to find someone who will take them from me. Generally
they can be slow growing, especially at certain sizes, but I've found
their growth rates are very much affected by water quality and diet.

I think the issue with sizing the tank to the fish is two-fold. Many
people only have one tank, so they need to be warned about the eventual
size of the fish, to be sure they are prepared to adequately accommodate
them. Others like myself & Dick have many tanks, so we can simply rotate
them through increasingly larger tanks as required, or not, if not
needed.

The other issue is that tank size will affect their growth rate, or more
particularly, water quality (which is poorer in small tanks) may stunt
the fish. If moving the fish through tank upgrades, you need to be
slightly ahead of their requirements to not stunt their growth (imo).

A few more issues particular to botia a
- they are shoaling fish, so you need many of them.
- they are bottom dwellers, reducing their useable space to the square
footage of the bottom.
- they can be light sensitive and burrow for shelter and darkness,
further reducing their usable habitat.
Each of these points, should influence us to providing larger habitats.
jmo

'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad
conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted
fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this is
part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification through
mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather than
genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most predominant
would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food), but it was
explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a major part,
especially with certain species.

The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones
which it can then detect back from the water.

If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water is
large and/or there is no or little competition from similar species, so
the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth (until some
other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply etc).

If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is small
(or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar species
(both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action might be to
not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on less food).

If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant
truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total
sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones
are in high concentration) and from nature.

Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from
mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their
reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates,
hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African
mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Dick" wrote in message
...
Hi Netmax,

I do have several tanks, but as I gain experience I am more and more
hesitant about moving my fish between tanks. I have seen "sick" fish
recover in their community tanks.

As to other's comment about "stunted" Clowns, this sounds negative as
I associated stunted with sickness. All of my Clowns healthy and
active. If they are stunted, so much the better. After I got my
Clowns I read the posts warning about potential size. That was over 2
years ago. It has been over a year since I have noticed any new
growth. I will be quite happy if they remain at their current sizes.

dick

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:56:12 -0500, "NetMax"
wrote:

My Clowns are only 4" long and I've had them for 2 years in a 70g.
Either they are not eating well enough or my water is too hard, and I
should look around to find someone who will take them from me.
Generally
they can be slow growing, especially at certain sizes, but I've found
their growth rates are very much affected by water quality and diet.

I think the issue with sizing the tank to the fish is two-fold. Many
people only have one tank, so they need to be warned about the eventual
size of the fish, to be sure they are prepared to adequately
accommodate
them. Others like myself & Dick have many tanks, so we can simply
rotate
them through increasingly larger tanks as required, or not, if not
needed.

The other issue is that tank size will affect their growth rate, or
more
particularly, water quality (which is poorer in small tanks) may stunt
the fish. If moving the fish through tank upgrades, you need to be
slightly ahead of their requirements to not stunt their growth (imo).

A few more issues particular to botia a
- they are shoaling fish, so you need many of them.
- they are bottom dwellers, reducing their useable space to the square
footage of the bottom.
- they can be light sensitive and burrow for shelter and darkness,
further reducing their usable habitat.
Each of these points, should influence us to providing larger habitats.
jmo

NetMax wrote:
'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad
conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted
fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this is
part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification through
mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather than
genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most predominant
would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food), but it was
explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a major part,
especially with certain species.

The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones
which it can then detect back from the water.

If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water is
large and/or there is no or little competition from similar species, so
the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth (until some
other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply etc).

If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is small
(or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar species
(both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action might be to
not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on less food).

If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant
truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total
sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones
are in high concentration) and from nature.

Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from
mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their
reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates,
hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African
mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature.


Hmmm....interesting

I have a "stunted" Platy. He's around 1 year old and has never grown
above 1cm. Platy fry from the same parents but in the "parent" tank grow
rapidly to "adult" size.

The "stunted" Platy has always lived in a 5gall tank (was born in it).
His last contact with Platys was at around 2 months old when I netted
out the fry and took them to the LFS - he remained only because he
jumped out of the bag and so I decided that he may as well stay. His
only fishy companions have been single bettas. Diet has always been
varied - flake and frozen and the odd bits of pea that have been fed to
the betta yet he has always remained small.

My guess is that he is a "natural runt" but as he had never had any
competition from other platys I've also wondered if this has been
another reason for the lack of growth. Maybe sharing the tank with a
betta might also have meant that staying small has been to his advantage
in keeping out of trouble.

I actually spotted some dinky platys (I'm guessing very young) at the
LFS and bought him 3 small companions today - his days as a betta
companion are over. If they get too big they will move on to a larger
tank. It will be interesting to see if he grows at all now he is mixing
with his "own kind"

Gill

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
.. .
NetMax wrote:
'Stunted' tends to have a negative connotation, and if it's due to bad
conditions, then it's deserved. It's interesting to note that stunted
fish (I call them runts) are also naturally occurring. I think this
is part of their evolutionary strategy of constant diversification
through mutation. Non-natural runts (stunted by environment rather
than genetics) can occur from a variety of reasons. The most
predominant would appear to be diet (ie: feeding only a flake food),
but it was explained to me that water parameter dilution also plays a
major part, especially with certain species.

The explanation was as follows: A growing fish will release hormones
which it can then detect back from the water.

If the hormones are not detectable or very low, then the body of water
is large and/or there is no or little competition from similar
species, so the proper action would be to expend more energy on growth
(until some other constraint develops, such as genetics, food supply
etc).

If the hormones detected back are high, then the body of water is
small (or shrinking), or there is significant competition from similar
species (both indicating a reduced food supply), so a proper action
might be to not expand energy on growth, and stay small (surviving on
less food).

If this analysis is correct (and I suspect that there is significant
truth behind it), then it would go a long way to explaining why total
sizes for fish are so different from an aquarium (where these hormones
are in high concentration) and from nature.

Loaches in particular are mostly from the Mekong river system fed from
mountain ranges (refreshed from heavy rainfall and snowmelt), so their
reaction (stunting) to accumulated elements in an aquarium (nitrates,
hormones etc) might be much more acute than lake fish, such as African
mbuna, which do approach and even exceed their natural size in nature.


Hmmm....interesting

I have a "stunted" Platy. He's around 1 year old and has never grown
above 1cm. Platy fry from the same parents but in the "parent" tank
grow rapidly to "adult" size.

The "stunted" Platy has always lived in a 5gall tank (was born in it).
His last contact with Platys was at around 2 months old when I netted
out the fry and took them to the LFS - he remained only because he
jumped out of the bag and so I decided that he may as well stay. His
only fishy companions have been single bettas. Diet has always been
varied - flake and frozen and the odd bits of pea that have been fed to
the betta yet he has always remained small.

My guess is that he is a "natural runt" but as he had never had any
competition from other platys I've also wondered if this has been
another reason for the lack of growth. Maybe sharing the tank with a
betta might also have meant that staying small has been to his
advantage in keeping out of trouble.

I actually spotted some dinky platys (I'm guessing very young) at the
LFS and bought him 3 small companions today - his days as a betta
companion are over. If they get too big they will move on to a larger
tank. It will be interesting to see if he grows at all now he is mixing
with his "own kind"

Gill

Two things came to mind reading your post. The first was a vague
recollection of a correlation between growth and competition, such that a
competitive environment causes them to grow faster.

The 2nd was that the longer a fish is exposed to the environmental
conditions which cause them to stop or reduce their growth, the less
likely it becomes that they will resume their normal growth rate or reach
their normal size after the conditions have been corrected. This is only
from personal observation.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Sarah Navarro wrote:

Dick, I also am curiuos about this. I have three clown loaches in a 100
gallon tank, along with a few miscellanous other fish. They are only about
4 or 5 inches long also. I have had them about a year and a half and they
just don't seem to grow any larger. I was told when I got them that they
needed to be in a very large tank because they would get very big, but it's
just not happening yet.

Patience. A clown has a life expectancy of about 30 years, and they grow
all the time, although growth slows down as they become older. What you
buy in a LFS is a toddler.

To OP: clowns tend to be quite shy and nocturnal at first, once they
have adapted to their new home they become bolder, especially if kept in
groups (5 to 6 is the minimum recommended). Clowns should always be
supplied with hide-outs like PVC pipes, coconut shells, peat wood and
the like. Note that clowns can recognise their keeper, when I had some
they would not mind my presence but vanish if a stranger entered the
room.

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" wrote in message
...
Note that clowns can recognise their keeper, when I had some
they would not mind my presence but vanish if a stranger entered the
room.
============================
My Malawi cichlids were the same way. Whenever a stranger came into the
house they'd vanish into the rockpile leaving what appeared to be an empty
tank. But if you looked close you could see their beady little eyes in the
darkness of the caves and crevices. They'd all be watching what was going
on from their hidey-holes.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
NEW PAGE: Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
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