Black moor resting by heater

"cindys" wrote in message
news
------------
Then, maybe a month ago, he felt that he wanted to move to a larger
aquarium
and get a second fish. That's when he got the 10-gallon aquarium kit, set
up
the aquarim according to the instructions that came with it, and got a
second fish. He was taking care of both fish for several weeks, and they
seemed fine. Then, one day (about 2 weeks ago), it seemed like the
original
fish was having trouble swimming. I looked at it and saw that its tail and
fins looked ragged and it just looked ill. That's when I started doing
some
internet searches for information. I phoned the Petco, and they told me
the
fish had fin and tail rot and to treat the tank with tetracycline, and
that's also the same time I found this group.

I'm glad you found us. :-) And PLEASE do not ask advice from the clerks in
those stores. 99.9% of them are clueless and just want to sell you
something. Even some websites are only looking to sell you some product and
make money.

The tank is a murky mess from the tetracycline. We've
spent a fortune on supplies. We're talking about a $2 goldfish here. Let's
stop all this nonsense and just get another fish."

I can see how he'd feel that way.....

So, in summary, the fish was his from the beginning. The hobby was his. I
had zero interest in any of this until 2 weeks ago when I decided to try
to
save the fish. My husband went along with all of it, but simply reached a
point where he said enough was enough. He previously stated he was going
to
replace the fish tomorrow, but sometimes, his bark is worse than his bite.
I
would be willing to bet the fish will not be replaced until I agree to it,
and he has agreed to ask the clerk at Petco if the fish tanks are treated
for parasites before buying another fish and dumping it in our tank.

Treat them for parasites anyway. The clerk may not know or give you the
wrong information.

He has
threatened to scrub the tetracycline out of our current tank, but hasn't
done it yet (after I warned him about disturbing the biosphere). But the
reality is, when you're married, you pick your battles. I'm glad he's not
pushing the issue, but if he did go to the store and replace the fish, I
certainly wouldn't divorce him over it.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Please let us know what happens Cindy.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Koi-lo" wrote in message
...

"cindys" wrote in message
news

snip for brevity

I'm glad you found us. :-) And PLEASE do not ask advice from the clerks
in
those stores. 99.9% of them are clueless and just want to sell you
something. Even some websites are only looking to sell you some product
and
make money.

The tank is a murky mess from the tetracycline. We've
spent a fortune on supplies. We're talking about a $2 goldfish here.
Let's
stop all this nonsense and just get another fish."

I can see how he'd feel that way.....

snip

Treat them for parasites anyway. The clerk may not know or give you the
wrong information.


Please let us know what happens Cindy.
-----------
What happened is that my husband went to Petco yesterday and bought another
fish. Apparently, he asked the clerk about treating the fish for parasites.
The clerk said she didn't know what he was talking about, that she never
heard of such a thing. She told him that all he needed to do was to
acclimate the fish by keeping it in the plastic bag for 15 minutes submersed
in the tank, then dump it in. She did at least advise him to avoid mixing
the aquarium water from Petco with the water in our tank. My husband insists
that the clerk at Petco is the authority here and that we need to go with
the advice from the *experts* at Petco and not what people are telling me on
Usenet. giant sigh. Then, he started complaining that the tank is still
murky from the tetracycline (it's gradually getting clearer with the daily
water changes, but he claims it's getting worse...I think he's imagining
things....). He said that I should ask you guys how to get rid of the
tetracycline in the tank.

Regarding the new fish, since my husband did not buy any product to kill
potential parasites, I decided not to quarantine the new fish (and thus
avoid yet another potential argument). So, I threw caution to the wind and
followed the instructions from the clerk at Petco, and now I'm hoping for
the best and hoping that the new fish didn't bring in some disease or
parasites, especially since the other fish has grown in the short time we've
had her and seems to be thriving, although I have noticed that she seems to
have lost some of her black coloration since we've had her and is a bit more
gold. The new fish is also a black moor but seems to be a different variety.
My son deliberately picked out the smallest one in the Petco tank "so that
it could grow." The tail seems extremely short and is in 4 segments, unlike
the other black moor whose tail is long and luxurious and has a 3-segment
tail. Anyway, we'll see what happens. I keep checking the tank to ensure
that neither fish is showing signs of distress. So far so good, but we've
only had the new fish for a little over 12 hours...
Thank you everyone for your help. I will keep you posted.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

cindys wrote:

What happened is that my husband went to Petco yesterday and bought another
fish. Apparently, he asked the clerk about treating the fish for parasites.
The clerk said she didn't know what he was talking about, that she never
heard of such a thing. She told him that all he needed to do was to
acclimate the fish by keeping it in the plastic bag for 15 minutes submersed
in the tank, then dump it in. She did at least advise him to avoid mixing
the aquarium water from Petco with the water in our tank. My husband insists
that the clerk at Petco is the authority here and that we need to go with
the advice from the *experts* at Petco and not what people are telling me on
Usenet. giant sigh. Then, he started complaining that the tank is still
murky from the tetracycline (it's gradually getting clearer with the daily
water changes, but he claims it's getting worse...I think he's imagining
things....). He said that I should ask you guys how to get rid of the
tetracycline in the tank.

Regarding the new fish, since my husband did not buy any product to kill
potential parasites, I decided not to quarantine the new fish (and thus
avoid yet another potential argument). So, I threw caution to the wind and
followed the instructions from the clerk at Petco, and now I'm hoping for
the best and hoping that the new fish didn't bring in some disease or
parasites, especially since the other fish has grown in the short time we've
had her and seems to be thriving, although I have noticed that she seems to
have lost some of her black coloration since we've had her and is a bit more
gold. The new fish is also a black moor but seems to be a different variety.
My son deliberately picked out the smallest one in the Petco tank "so that
it could grow." The tail seems extremely short and is in 4 segments, unlike
the other black moor whose tail is long and luxurious and has a 3-segment
tail. Anyway, we'll see what happens. I keep checking the tank to ensure
that neither fish is showing signs of distress. So far so good, but we've
only had the new fish for a little over 12 hours...
Thank you everyone for your help. I will keep you posted.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.



I also just equalize new fishes' temperature then put them into the
community aquarium, discarding the pet store water. I know better, but
my quarantine aquariums have become permanent fish homes. With tropical
fish I've been getting away with this scott-free for several years, and
it has the advantage that the new fish have a stress-free life in the
big aquarium.

As to treating new fish with chemicals to get rid of (imaginary?)
parasites, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Why stress the fish
unnecessarily?

Two goldfish in 10 gallons really is too much, so keep up with weekly
partial water changes. And start saving for a 30 gallon aquarium .
Happy fish keeping!
Steve

"Steve" wrote in message
...
I also just equalize new fishes' temperature then put them into the
community aquarium, discarding the pet store water. I know better, but my
quarantine aquariums have become permanent fish homes.

This happens with many of us. ;-)

With tropical
fish I've been getting away with this scott-free for several years, and it
has the advantage that the new fish have a stress-free life in the big
aquarium.

Quarantine tanks, if set up properly, are not stressful for the fish. An
empty tank with nothing but a filter intake may be!

As to treating new fish with chemicals to get rid of (imaginary?)

Parasites are not imaginary and they can be deadly. You never heard of ick
for instance? Do you own a microscope? My favorite fish store was selling
fish infested with gillflukes several years ago. They caught the
infestation themselves, admitted it and replaced the goldfish that died (in
my quarantine tank). The second problem was Costia! A very tiny parasite
you can't see with the naked eye, but very deadly. The chain stores are
sensitive to complaints of their customers, especially when you hand them a
slide with the parasites under a cover-glass. They replaced those fish as
well. Every fish you buy isn't going to have parasites but what about those
that do? You can lose every fish you have by purchasing ONE infested fish
that could have been quarantined and treated. They will replace those they
sold you that died but they will not replace the rest of your valuable fish.

parasites, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Why stress the fish
unnecessarily?

How is treating them for parasites stressful? Are you aware of the stress
they and you will endure if they *DO* have something like flukes or costia
and you add them to your community tank? :-(

Two goldfish in 10 gallons really is too much, so keep up with weekly
partial water changes. And start saving for a 30 gallon aquarium .
Happy fish keeping!
Steve
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-lo wrote:



Parasites are not imaginary and they can be deadly. You never heard of
ick for instance? ...


How is treating them for parasites stressful?

WRT ich specifically, I've come to understand from this newsgroup and
other reading, that healthy, unstressed fish ward off the parasite and
are not affected. Stressing fish with a chemical dip or bath might be
just the recipe for making fish susceptible to ich and other things?

My fishkeeping hobby in the last 15 years has been much influenced by
reading a book by Stephen Spotte about fish and invertebrate culture. He
demonstrated quite conclusively that most common fish ailments are
brought on by stress. Minimizing stress leads to healthy fish. Spotte
was a great proponent of biological filtration (absence of ammonia/
nitrite leads to low stress) when it was not widely understood.

Steve

"Steve" wrote in message
...
Koi-lo wrote:



Parasites are not imaginary and they can be deadly. You never heard of
ick for instance? ...


How is treating them for parasites stressful?

WRT ich specifically, I've come to understand from this newsgroup and
other reading, that healthy, unstressed fish ward off the parasite and are
not affected. Stressing fish with a chemical dip or bath might be just the
recipe for making fish susceptible to ich and other things?

I'm not talking about baths and dips Steve. I'm talking about using
something like Quick-Cure, Clout or AquraSol that you add to the water.
Even healthy fish can become stressed and of the parasites are already there
(because no one treated them) they're sitting ducks for disaster.

My fishkeeping hobby in the last 15 years has been much influenced by
reading a book by Stephen Spotte about fish and invertebrate culture. He
demonstrated quite conclusively that most common fish ailments are brought
on by stress.

I don't disagree. But stress can also be caused by a parasite problem -
then you have a runaway merry-go-round. The more the parasites stress the
fish the weaker it becomes which allows more parasites to reproduce which
causes more stress. That's simplifying it but you get the idea. Better to
remove the parasites first, before introducing the fish to your other fish.

Minimizing stress leads to healthy fish.

Even healthy fish can't ward off some of these parasites. Wait until your
fishes first infestation! :-(
Just the act of the breeder catching, bagging and shipping the fish to the
wholesaler is stressful. Then more stress as the WS catches, bags and ships
them to the stores. Then even more stress as the store catches and bags
them for you - you bring it home and there's even more stress in different
water, a different home, different food, different temperatures, strange
fish.... it's a wonder any of them survive.

Spotte
was a great proponent of biological filtration (absence of ammonia/
nitrite leads to low stress) when it was not widely understood.

Steve

Parasites are no respector of health. A hungry fluke will do as much
feeding damage to a healthy fish's gill rakers as it will a sick fishes gill
rakers. I know this from experience. A hungry tick, louse or mosquito
doesn't care if you're 100% healthy or about to die - they fill feed off you
just like a costia or ick parasite will feed off the first fish it attaches
itself to.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Fancy GF and koi are selected for other considerations than a good immune system.
But given that there are two conditions that lead a fish to disease; stress and HIGH
numbers of pathogens.
stress can result from lousy or toxic water, lousy or toxic food, not enough food,
low oxygen levels, overcrowding, harassment, loud noise, rapidly changing
temperatures or other pH, or etc. AND, medications.
My ponds have always been healthier for my fish even with more "cooties" because
there is less stress of other kinds especially there is no ammonia, no nitrates.
Even in well seasoned tanks nitrate levels are always a problem.
Ingrid

Steve wrote:
WRT ich specifically, I've come to understand from this newsgroup and
other reading, that healthy, unstressed fish ward off the parasite and
are not affected. Stressing fish with a chemical dip or bath might be
just the recipe for making fish susceptible to ich and other things?

My fishkeeping hobby in the last 15 years has been much influenced by
reading a book by Stephen Spotte about fish and invertebrate culture. He
demonstrated quite conclusively that most common fish ailments are
brought on by stress. Minimizing stress leads to healthy fish. Spotte
was a great proponent of biological filtration (absence of ammonia/
nitrite leads to low stress) when it was not widely understood.

Steve



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for
any of the recommendations I make.
AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE

wrote in message
...
Fancy GF and koi are selected for other considerations than a good immune
system.
But given that there are two conditions that lead a fish to disease;
stress and HIGH
numbers of pathogens........
======================
Parasites aside for a minute as they're not the only problem we can
introduce with new fish,...I would rather have any new kio or GF die in
quarantine than spread something like KHV or SVC to the rest of my fish.
No salt dip or Quick-Cure will cure these diseases.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"cindys" wrote in message
.. .
[big snip]
He said that I should ask you guys how to get rid of the
tetracycline in the tank.
[snip]

I can't recall your setup. Do you have a power
filter that hangs off the back of the tank? If so,
it's easy to buy a cartridge for the filter that
contains carbon. This will remove the
tetracycline from the tank.

Don't leave the carbon cartridge in the filter
for long. That's a whole other subject, but
generally a carbon cartridge is useful only
in specific cases such as removing meds.
Left in the filter too long, it starts to cause
problems. "Too long" is generally more
than a month, but with dirty fish like goldfish,
I'd be tempted to remove it after 2 weeks.

You mentioned one of the fish changing color.
I don't know much about the fancier goldfish,
but common goldfish and comets do tend
to change color somewhat as they age. You
might do some googling on goldfish and
changing colors to see what you can come
up with.

Gail

"cindys" wrote in message
.. .
What happened is that my husband went to Petco yesterday and bought
another
fish. Apparently, he asked the clerk about treating the fish for
parasites.
The clerk said she didn't know what he was talking about, that she never
heard of such a thing.

See what I mean about clueless? How can a clerk in a store selling fish not
know fish carry parasites? Just Google goldfish+parasites or
goldfish+diseases, or check out someplace like www.koivet.com, a site run by
a Lic. veterinarian. There is no excuse for such an ignorant clerk in a
fish store. They give them no training or education whatsoever except how
to SELL and be polite to the customers. I've had a mixed experience with
employees at the Petco here. Some were knowledgeable but most, the
majority, were clueless where fish are concerned.

She told him that all he needed to do was to
acclimate the fish by keeping it in the plastic bag for 15 minutes
submersed
in the tank, then dump it in.

What an ignorant thing she is!!! She obviously didn't know if the PH (and
hardness) of the water the fish was in at the store, and the PH (ask Max
about TDSs) in your tank were different, it could kill the fish. It damages
their gills. Unfortunately it can take a week or more to kill them. I know
this from sad personal experience. Our problem is our water is hard and
alkaline and the LFSs here have water that's slightly acid or neutral, and
much softer. A recipe for disaster. I have to acclimate new fish over a
period of hours if I want them to survive. Your husband needs to do some
research on the net - or show him our messages. :-)

She did at least advise him to avoid mixing
the aquarium water from Petco with the water in our tank. My husband
insists
that the clerk at Petco is the authority here and that we need to go with
the advice from the *experts* at Petco and not what people are telling me
on
Usenet. giant sigh.

But you have a computer he can do research on!?!?!?!?!

Then, he started complaining that the tank is still
murky from the tetracycline (it's gradually getting clearer with the daily
water changes, but he claims it's getting worse...I think he's imagining
things....). He said that I should ask you guys how to get rid of the
tetracycline in the tank.

I'm not being rude but I'm surprised he didn't ask this "expert" at the
store, not that she would know! ;-) He can either step up the PWCs, clean
the whole tank and start again, or use a lot of activated carbon in the
filter or some combination of these suggestions....

Regarding the new fish, since my husband did not buy any product to kill
potential parasites, I decided not to quarantine the new fish (and thus
avoid yet another potential argument).

Cindy, your husband sounds a lot like my 1st husband. Since I worked and
had my own income I just went out and bought myself a 30Long tank and never
said another word to him regarding tank #1. Sometimes it's the best way to
handle such a situation if you enjoy the fish as well. This way there was
no arguing about what fiter to use, how many airstones, what brand food to
buy, how many fish.......... :-)))

So, I threw caution to the wind and
followed the instructions from the clerk at Petco, and now I'm hoping for
the best and hoping that the new fish didn't bring in some disease or
parasites, especially since the other fish has grown in the short time
we've
had her and seems to be thriving, although I have noticed that she seems
to
have lost some of her black coloration since we've had her and is a bit
more
gold.

Some moors don't stay black. They're still pretty fish when gold.

The new fish is also a black moor but seems to be a different variety.

I have seen variations in moors as well as the other breeds.

My son deliberately picked out the smallest one in the Petco tank "so that
it could grow." The tail seems extremely short and is in 4 segments,
unlike
the other black moor whose tail is long and luxurious and has a 3-segment
tail. Anyway, we'll see what happens. I keep checking the tank to ensure
that neither fish is showing signs of distress. So far so good, but we've
only had the new fish for a little over 12 hours...
Thank you everyone for your help. I will keep you posted.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

We'll be here and good luck!
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o