betta salt non iodide

Richard Sexton wrote:
As for your contention that 'if it won't hurt a person, it won't hurt a
fish' - I think that one is a little too broad. The dosage different would
need to be 1000 times smaller due to the differences in mass (imagine eating
1000 teaspoons of table salt ;~). Fish also have some sensitivities we
don't have (ie: copper) and don't have, some we have (ie: iron?).


Err, I think all anmalks are equally affected by heavy metal ions.


I don't think either fish or people can handle cyanide well ;~).


The cyanide ion is deadly to all red blooded animals. Blocks hemoglobin
or soemthing. it's cyanate that's in salt. I think. don't quote me.

Yellow prussate of soda = sodium ferrocyanide = sodium hexacyanoferrate
(II) = Na4Fe(CN)6. It tends to become hydrated, thus its use as an
anticaking agent and industrial anticorrosive.

It's quite stable until you expose it to sunlight or UV light and water
and then it gradually degrades to cyanide. As part of an environmental
impact study on forest fire retardents, the US government did a study
showing that sodium ferrocyanide can kill fish and frogs. Cyanide
blocks hemoglobin's ability to carry oxygen quite effectively. Because
fish live in lower oxygen than mammals, they are more sensitive to it.

Why put the stuff in your fishtank when it's so easy to avoid?

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ok, sorry to confuse...my fault I was writing and thinking at the same time,
and have had several things going on with both tanks, I had wrote before
about the guppies having ick/and also some type of fungus, to begin with I
had a guppy tank which has been set up for quite some time, had no problems
with my original guppies or tank until getting fish from the LFS, I had got
some guppies at the LFS and they did have ick, I was aware the bettas had
it....but I did not notice it on the guppies (should have because they did
not look great in the first place) after treating my entire tank for ick, I
lost a couple of the new ones, and then some of my babies died, I also
noticed some fuzzy/stringy white stuff growing on a few of the young ones
after the ick was gone, I have two different ick meds one is jungle and the
other is ick+ (which says for bacteria and fungus also) but I was not sure
what it was so I used hydrogen peroxide with a q-tip, which did help a
couple come back from what ever it was, however some of the babies are still
dying (which I guess is because they are babies) so at this point with the
guppy tank I think I am on the right road I am not losing any adults (have
one I am worried about I will explain) With the bettas I knew they had ick,
when I seen them at the store they were in one of those throw away cups, I
felt bad, LFS lady said they may die (still charged me 3.99$), I ask if they
were old she said no, however they had ick and looked as if they may have
been in a fight at some point, but I felt bad leaving them there, at that
point she had the 2 betta's/ eight guppies/ and some feeders/ and a sucker
fish, I got the sucker fish also, he is ok, I put him in a bigger tank I
have with a gwamie.
Ok the betta's, they are in a 2-3 gl tank, I did not want to spread
anything, I have a divider that is not see through as not to stress them, a
heater on 82, and a filter, once they are better I will put them in
something bigger, I put one dose of ick+ in the tank, and had the heat on
85, I am afraid to treat them for to long because of all the missing
fins/tail, all in all they don't act like they are sick, I was thinking
about salt for two reasons 1.) I read they liked it in their water?? 2.)
because I read also it can help heal them, I don't know if either is true,
which is why I figured I would ask you guys. I guess I kind of need a
direction..I have never had betta's before.....if I forgot to answer
anything let me know.
Ok the guppy I am worried about, I have had her for six months now, through
all the problems with the ick and new fish, she held up fine, I never seen
no ick on her, I got her she was pregnant she has since then had several
batches of fry, I have not kept close track but I think it may be more then
30 days since her last ones she is huge, in all the batches she had I never
seen her belly so big, her belly still looks pregnant, looks like she has
babies that are ready, but again I never seen her belly so big and square,
it does square off a day or two before but its more so now then ever before,
I am wondering if she is having problems getting them out, or is sick, I
noticed yesterday for a good part of the day she had instead of normal poop
she had some white not string it was not that solid, I really don't know how
to explain, thinner then string about an inch long hanging from her, she is
also now getting to big to swim, any idea, I have turned the heat up 2 more
degree's to see if that would help her deliver, also the reason I was
thinking about salt in their tank is because of the babies having that
fungus, I don't have the babies free in the tank they are in a square net,
not a plastic baby saver just a square net thing.
Sorry for all the questions up until six months ago, I have always had big
fish like pacu's and Oscars and did not seem to have all these problems.
Nikki



"Mr. Gardener" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Mar 2006 11:29:44 -0500, "Nikki"
wrote:

Well I was asking also because these are the fish I got when I got the
guppies from my LFS, they all had ick, which may not of been smart to buy
them, but they are closing, they were the last of what she had and I felt
bad, I treated the guppies with ick med and had a lot of problems with
them
I lost some but think I am on the right road now, been doing a lot of
water
changes and i am feeding less, I was reading about bettas and ick and it
said turn heat up to 80-85 use salt and the ick will come off got to the
bottom of the tank and die from the salt, and it would also help prevent
any
other bacteria problems since they were sick with ick, I also wanted to
use
salt in my guppy tank being the problems they had but I have African dwarf
frogs in there and they don't tolerate salt, but I may remove them and use
it, im not sure yet.


I might have missed something along the way. You've treated the
guppies for ich and they are responding well? How many guppies have
you been able to save? Ich treatment is usually pretty effective when
you follow the instructions. And many people swear by salt. Do you
also have a betta with ich? If your frogs are unable to tolerate ich
medicine or salt, it would be worth the hassle to move them elsewhere
while you treat, since treatment is usually a sure thing. If your
guppies received a full cycle of ich treatment, then there should be
no need to continue treating them with medications or salt. Though
there are some guppy experts that do believe in keeping a little salt
in guppy tanks at all times. But that would mean finding a permanent
rather than a temporary vacation home for your froggies.

I still think the lfs that sold the icky fishes should have paid you
to take them. And given you a free bottle of ich treatment.

I have another question about my guppy ill post separate.
Nikki

We're ready and waiting. I bred some fine guppies in a previous life,
and though I don't have any immediate plans to resume, they are
probably my very favorite fish. And like eveything else in this hobby,
I've got some catching up to do.

-- Mister Gardener

Nikki wrote,
i have read i should put salt in with my betta's ...........
if this is ok to use...... how much salt do you use per gallon?

Using salt as a treatment works quite well for most fish, but some fish
won't tolerate much salt at all. A good rule of thumb is that fish from
hard waters like salt, and fish from soft waters don't!
A little salt in the water helps to stimulate the slime coat (1 tsp per
5 gals.), but salt can also be used to strip a fishs slime coat (3% 30
sec. quick dip)! And, to much salt in the water tends to split fins
and tails on soft water fish................ Frank

In article ,
Altum wrote:
Richard Sexton wrote:
As for your contention that 'if it won't hurt a person, it won't hurt a
fish' - I think that one is a little too broad. The dosage different would
need to be 1000 times smaller due to the differences in mass (imagine eating
1000 teaspoons of table salt ;~). Fish also have some sensitivities we
don't have (ie: copper) and don't have, some we have (ie: iron?).


Err, I think all anmalks are equally affected by heavy metal ions.


I don't think either fish or people can handle cyanide well ;~).


The cyanide ion is deadly to all red blooded animals. Blocks hemoglobin
or soemthing. it's cyanate that's in salt. I think. don't quote me.

Yellow prussate of soda = sodium ferrocyanide = sodium hexacyanoferrate
(II) = Na4Fe(CN)6. It tends to become hydrated, thus its use as an
anticaking agent and industrial anticorrosive.

It's quite stable until you expose it to sunlight or UV light and water
and then it gradually degrades to cyanide. As part of an environmental
impact study on forest fire retardents, the US government did a study
showing that sodium ferrocyanide can kill fish and frogs. Cyanide
blocks hemoglobin's ability to carry oxygen quite effectively. Because
fish live in lower oxygen than mammals, they are more sensitive to it.

Why put the stuff in your fishtank when it's so easy to avoid?

Fair enough, Sea salt is cheap enough and I keep a ton of it around
here. Point is it's not likely to kill your fish any more than lead
in your old water heater will.

--
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Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Yes they are closing forever...she says not enough business..wonder why
I don't make a habit of buying fish there, when my five year old wanted a
fish for the first time we went there, a half hour after getting the fish it
died, my husband took him down again to get a new one, my husband has always
had tanks so he looked around and said NO she has to many dead fish floating
around in the tanks, but our son said please, so he got him another since it
was not going in a tank with other fish it was not a big deal, it died also
the same day, so I usually only get supplies there, I just happened to see
the guppies and bettas and felt bad, that was my own fault. FWIW, I never
had betta's before and I got them 2, and although they are a bit beat up, I
really like them, they are pretty and neat to watch, I hope they make it
through. Got rid of ick on them, they are missing a lot of fins I would say
one is missing about 30% of fins and the other is missing about 40-50%, but
they are not acting sick, they are eating and swimming so I will see what
happens. I was wondering about the salt because I read that when they are
missing fins they are prone to get fungus or bacteria infections and since
they had ick, I thought if they liked salt it may prevent any of those
problems from happening
Nikki



"Mr. Gardener" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Mar 2006 11:29:44 -0500, "Nikki"
wrote:

Well I was asking also because these are the fish I got when I got the
guppies from my LFS, they all had ick,

I can't believe they accepted money for icky fish.

which may not of been smart to buy
them, but they are closing,

Forever, I hope?

-- Mister Gardener

Nikki wrote:
Yes they are closing forever...she says not enough business..wonder why
I don't make a habit of buying fish there, when my five year old wanted a
fish for the first time we went there, a half hour after getting the fish it
died, my husband took him down again to get a new one, my husband has always
had tanks so he looked around and said NO she has to many dead fish floating
around in the tanks, but our son said please, so he got him another since it
was not going in a tank with other fish it was not a big deal, it died also
the same day, so I usually only get supplies there, I just happened to see
the guppies and bettas and felt bad, that was my own fault. FWIW, I never
had betta's before and I got them 2, and although they are a bit beat up, I
really like them, they are pretty and neat to watch, I hope they make it
through. Got rid of ick on them, they are missing a lot of fins I would say
one is missing about 30% of fins and the other is missing about 40-50%, but
they are not acting sick, they are eating and swimming so I will see what
happens. I was wondering about the salt because I read that when they are
missing fins they are prone to get fungus or bacteria infections and since
they had ick, I thought if they liked salt it may prevent any of those
problems from happening

Eating and swimming is naturally a good sign, as is the cleared ich.
I'm going to risk sounding like a broken record. ;-) The best thing
for fin damage is very clean water. A touch of salt makes sense too,
but only while they're recovering. Then I'd wean them to fresh water.

If your betta gets bacteria on the fins, go back to your Q-tip with the
peroxide. A Q-tip with malachite green is a great cure for fungus. I
also find that feeding twice a day rather than once gives bettas the
nutrition they need to regrow fins.

In general, bettas heal from fin damage very well. I think it's because
they evolved fighting and healing.

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On Sun, 5 Mar 2006 16:31:01 -0500, "Nikki"
wrote:

Yes they are closing forever...she says not enough business..wonder why
I don't make a habit of buying fish there, when my five year old wanted a
fish for the first time we went there, a half hour after getting the fish it
died, my husband took him down again to get a new one, my husband has always
had tanks so he looked around and said NO she has to many dead fish floating
around in the tanks, but our son said please, so he got him another since it
was not going in a tank with other fish it was not a big deal, it died also
the same day, so I usually only get supplies there, I just happened to see
the guppies and bettas and felt bad, that was my own fault. FWIW, I never
had betta's before and I got them 2, and although they are a bit beat up, I
really like them, they are pretty and neat to watch, I hope they make it
through. Got rid of ick on them, they are missing a lot of fins I would say
one is missing about 30% of fins and the other is missing about 40-50%, but
they are not acting sick, they are eating and swimming so I will see what
happens. I was wondering about the salt because I read that when they are
missing fins they are prone to get fungus or bacteria infections and since
they had ick, I thought if they liked salt it may prevent any of those
problems from happening
Nikki

These bettas might be good candidates for a full Metafix or Pimafix
program, I forget which does which, maybe both would be good.
This stuff is pretty new to me, so I'll toss it out here. Anybody?

-- Mister Gardener

I am going to have to go to the mall, its a distance but that is the closest
pet store now, I am guessing I can just ask someone there about the stuff
you said. I have been changing the water every day, since they are in a
tank, I have a filter and heater, I don't know if I should do a full or
partial water change every day? I been doing about 50%, My ick med says Ick+
fungus and bacteria, is that true? does it work for the fungus and bacteria?
I am not sure but I thought someone said betta's don't like salt at all,
then I read somewhere they do, is Morton's non-iodized salt ok or should I
go get another kind? how much should I use while they are getting better?
again thanks
Nikki




"Altum" wrote in message
. net...
Nikki wrote:
Yes they are closing forever...she says not enough business..wonder why
I don't make a habit of buying fish there, when my five year old wanted a
fish for the first time we went there, a half hour after getting the fish
it died, my husband took him down again to get a new one, my husband has
always had tanks so he looked around and said NO she has to many dead
fish floating around in the tanks, but our son said please, so he got him
another since it was not going in a tank with other fish it was not a big
deal, it died also the same day, so I usually only get supplies there, I
just happened to see the guppies and bettas and felt bad, that was my own
fault. FWIW, I never had betta's before and I got them 2, and although
they are a bit beat up, I really like them, they are pretty and neat to
watch, I hope they make it through. Got rid of ick on them, they are
missing a lot of fins I would say one is missing about 30% of fins and
the other is missing about 40-50%, but they are not acting sick, they are
eating and swimming so I will see what happens. I was wondering about the
salt because I read that when they are missing fins they are prone to get
fungus or bacteria infections and since they had ick, I thought if they
liked salt it may prevent any of those problems from happening

Eating and swimming is naturally a good sign, as is the cleared ich. I'm
going to risk sounding like a broken record. ;-) The best thing for fin
damage is very clean water. A touch of salt makes sense too, but only
while they're recovering. Then I'd wean them to fresh water.

If your betta gets bacteria on the fins, go back to your Q-tip with the
peroxide. A Q-tip with malachite green is a great cure for fungus. I
also find that feeding twice a day rather than once gives bettas the
nutrition they need to regrow fins.

In general, bettas heal from fin damage very well. I think it's because
they evolved fighting and healing.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Nikki wrote:
I am going to have to go to the mall, its a distance but that is the closest
pet store now, I am guessing I can just ask someone there about the stuff
you said. I have been changing the water every day, since they are in a
tank, I have a filter and heater, I don't know if I should do a full or
partial water change every day? I been doing about 50%, My ick med says Ick+
fungus and bacteria, is that true? does it work for the fungus and bacteria?
I am not sure but I thought someone said betta's don't like salt at all,
then I read somewhere they do, is Morton's non-iodized salt ok or should I
go get another kind? how much should I use while they are getting better?
again thanks
Nikki

50% water changes a day is great! There is no need to change more - you
might start stressing the fish. Rid-Ich+ is a formalin/malachite green
medication. It's a very good treatment for ich, velvet, and other
protozoans. It will help prevent fungus and bacteria, but I wouldn't
use it to cure an active infection of either.

Your bettas had ich, not fungus or bacteria, so you need an ich
medicine. Don't worry too much about bacteria and fungus. The water
changes will take care of that part. Water changes are the best cure
for fin damage.

Bettas don't like salt or even hard water. They are soft water fish.
However, as you know, fungus and bacteria don't either. There is a
trade-off between stressing your fish and getting the benefits of salt.
Rid-Ich+ stresses fish too so you shouldn't mix Rid-Ich+ and salt.
(Fish like guppies don't mind it and benefit from the salt.)

If you want specific directions, Here's what I would do. Keep doing the
water changes until you see some new growth on the fins. It should take
about a week - two at the outside. Then you can slow down to twice
weekly water changes because the fins are much less likely to get
infected. For the next two weeks, add one dose of Rid-Ich+ every third
day. That will kill any ich parasites in the tanks and help prevent
fungus or bacteria. I very much doubt you will see fungus or bacteria,
but if you do, dab a Q-tip with some peroxide on the infected fin. As
you know, peroxide will burn gills badly so be careful not to get any on
the gills. I would not use any salt because of the Rid-Ich+.

For future reference and for the guppies, the Morton's salt is fine.

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Thank you, that is what i needed to know, specific directions, that gives me
the direction i needed, i just have one quick question, I did explain in
another post just a few minutes ago, but i dont know if you read it, so i
will sum it up quick here,
My Betta's are in a 3 or 5 gallon (not sure what size) looks about three,
with a divider, filter, heater, i have the heat on 80, with the rid ick+ it
says if i rememer right you should do water changes before using another
dose. how much should you change after using ick med is 50% ok? i was also
wondering if i should take the rocks out? I have a sandman filter in their
tank, not set up with sand and all.... just got some floss in it to catch
anything going through, it was the only filter i had that would fit on that
tank.
Again thank you so much for your help.
Do you happen to know how much salt goes in the guppy tank, and it wont kill
them since i have never had salt in it before will it? Is it also good for
the babies?
Nikki





50% water changes a day is great! There is no need to change more - you
might start stressing the fish. Rid-Ich+ is a formalin/malachite green
medication. It's a very good treatment for ich, velvet, and other
protozoans. It will help prevent fungus and bacteria, but I wouldn't use
it to cure an active infection of either.

Your bettas had ich, not fungus or bacteria, so you need an ich medicine.
Don't worry too much about bacteria and fungus. The water changes will
take care of that part. Water changes are the best cure for fin damage.

Bettas don't like salt or even hard water. They are soft water fish.
However, as you know, fungus and bacteria don't either. There is a
trade-off between stressing your fish and getting the benefits of salt.
Rid-Ich+ stresses fish too so you shouldn't mix Rid-Ich+ and salt. (Fish
like guppies don't mind it and benefit from the salt.)

If you want specific directions, Here's what I would do. Keep doing the
water changes until you see some new growth on the fins. It should take
about a week - two at the outside. Then you can slow down to twice weekly
water changes because the fins are much less likely to get infected. For
the next two weeks, add one dose of Rid-Ich+ every third day. That will
kill any ich parasites in the tanks and help prevent fungus or bacteria.
I very much doubt you will see fungus or bacteria, but if you do, dab a
Q-tip with some peroxide on the infected fin. As you know, peroxide will
burn gills badly so be careful not to get any on the gills. I would not
use any salt because of the Rid-Ich+.

For future reference and for the guppies, the Morton's salt is fine.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
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