Internal Filter for Goldfish

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 23:43:24 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

Moments before spontaneously combusting Jolly Fisherman at
was heard opining:
Presently I have a GF tank that cannot accommodate any HOB or BIOwheel
system because of vertical clearance. So I'm temporarily running an
aquaclear on the front of the tank. It's unsightly. Frankly while it
works & the fishy is happy I'm not very impressed with the filter's
design concept. I'm not going to move the tank unless it seems it
NEEDS a biowheel or something.

Am I totally off the mark? Thanks again.
==================================
You can always drain it way down and move it forward enough to get the
filter behind it.

Thanks for more help but I can't really. Even if I could squeeze it
in by rotating everything in strange angles I couldn't service it
without doing nearly 100% water changes. Not at all what I'm looking
for.

If you can't do that then how about a canister filter
under it or beside it?

If it was something around the size of a typical HOB or slightly
bigger that might work great. Is there such an animal?


But this is the part I don't understand. How is an external canister
or HOB sponge filter better for a small goldfish tank than an internal
power/canister filter?

Is it that the internal one's lack sufficient surface area for
adequate biological filtration? All of them are using equal
oxygenated water so I'm assuming surface area is the main limitation
of biological filtration here. But my adequate Aquaclear sponge &
ceramic thingies aren't very big.

I'm also assuming the recommendations here are based somewhat on the
current they generate. But even that is a little fuzzy in my mind.
For one thing, AFIK, external canisters tend to be _more_ powerful.


I don't mean to be a PITA here, but I also don't understand when you
say "In-tank filters keep the "dirt" inside the tank." Both a HOB &
internal filter use mainly a sponge or similar that is submerged in
continuously circulating tank water. So from the standpoint of water
quality it shouldn't matter that the sponge filter is located in an
external reservoir; it is one connected water system. If anything the
internal filters are less likely to release gunk into the tank when
servicing them because you are basically forced to totally remove them
before servicing.

I am somewhat of a newb, admittedly, but I do basically understand the
high bio-load needs of GF. I also understand the value of the wet/dry
biowheel type filters. I just don't get the difference between a
sponge or floss or similar in any of the other mentioned filters.
Help?

Moments before spontaneously combusting Jolly Fisherman at
was heard opining:

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 23:43:24 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:
You can always drain it way down and move it forward enough to get
the filter behind it.
============
Thanks for more help but I can't really. Even if I could squeeze it
in by rotating everything in strange angles I couldn't service it
without doing nearly 100% water changes. Not at all what I'm looking
for.

If you can't do that then how about a canister filter
under it or beside it?

If it was something around the size of a typical HOB or slightly
bigger that might work great. Is there such an animal?

I'm not sure of the sizes they come in these days.

But this is the part I don't understand. How is an external canister
or HOB sponge filter better for a small goldfish tank than an internal
power/canister filter?

SMALL goldfish tank? What size is this tank? I hope you realize how large
healthy GF get. A common GF can reach almost 12" long. There's a rule of
10g per GF but that doesn't really apply to adults as even a 10g is too
small for an adult GF. It would be like keeping a person in a closet.

Is it that the internal one's lack sufficient surface area for
adequate biological filtration? All of them are using equal
oxygenated water so I'm assuming surface area is the main limitation
of biological filtration here. But my adequate Aquaclear sponge &
ceramic thingies aren't very big.

And how many GF do you have in this small tank? The more fish in the tank
the better the filtration and the more partial water changes you will need
to perform.

I'm also assuming the recommendations here are based somewhat on the
current they generate. But even that is a little fuzzy in my mind.
For one thing, AFIK, external canisters tend to be _more_ powerful.

I don't mean to be a PITA here, but I also don't understand when you
say "In-tank filters keep the "dirt" inside the tank." Both a HOB &
internal filter use mainly a sponge or similar that is submerged in
continuously circulating tank water. So from the standpoint of water
quality it shouldn't matter that the sponge filter is located in an
external reservoir; it is one connected water system. If anything the
internal filters are less likely to release gunk into the tank when
servicing them because you are basically forced to totally remove them
before servicing.

I understand and once used inside air-driven box filters. The water was
always CLEANER, with less particulate matter once I started using the HOB
filters and the Fluval. Also, if the power goes off the HOB can be cleaned
before it fouls the tank, you can't say that for an internal filter or
internal sponge filter. I like crystal clear water so much I'm on my second
Vortex diatomaceous earth filter. These are run after a partial water
change when the water *LOOKS* clean.... but just look at the color of that
powder after 30 minutes. ;-)

I am somewhat of a newb, admittedly, but I do basically understand the
high bio-load needs of GF.

GF truly need the best filtration money can buy.

I also understand the value of the wet/dry
biowheel type filters. I just don't get the difference between a
sponge or floss or similar in any of the other mentioned filters.

Why not try the internal filters then and see how they work for you?

Help?
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:04:11 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

snip
But this is the part I don't understand. How is an external canister
or HOB sponge filter better for a small goldfish tank than an internal
power/canister filter?

SMALL goldfish tank? What size is this tank? I hope you realize how large
healthy GF get. A common GF can reach almost 12" long. There's a rule of
10g per GF but that doesn't really apply to adults as even a 10g is too
small for an adult GF. It would be like keeping a person in a closet.

As I posted earlier it's a 20gal long. I understand this to be a
minimum size starter tank for 1-2 GF, at least for a while anyway.

I almost plunked down $80 for a drop dead gorgeous & massive oranda
the other day at my LFS. I almost slipped in my puddle of drool. I'm
not stupid though.

Is it that the internal one's lack sufficient surface area for
adequate biological filtration? All of them are using equal
oxygenated water so I'm assuming surface area is the main limitation
of biological filtration here. But my adequate Aquaclear sponge &
ceramic thingies aren't very big.

And how many GF do you have in this small tank? The more fish in the tank
the better the filtration and the more partial water changes you will need
to perform.

Only 1 small GF at the moment. I would never put in more than 2 small
or medium sized GF in it. IMHO I don't think a 20gal should sustain
more than 6-7 inches total of fat-bodied fish like GF in normal
maintenance routines.

I'm also assuming the recommendations here are based somewhat on the
current they generate. But even that is a little fuzzy in my mind.
For one thing, AFIK, external canisters tend to be _more_ powerful.

I don't mean to be a PITA here, but I also don't understand when you
say "In-tank filters keep the "dirt" inside the tank." Both a HOB &
internal filter use mainly a sponge or similar that is submerged in
continuously circulating tank water. So from the standpoint of water
quality it shouldn't matter that the sponge filter is located in an
external reservoir; it is one connected water system. If anything the
internal filters are less likely to release gunk into the tank when
servicing them because you are basically forced to totally remove them
before servicing.

I understand and once used inside air-driven box filters. The water was
always CLEANER, with less particulate matter once I started using the HOB
filters and the Fluval.

Air-driven box filters seem like very inefficient devices IMHO. They
don't seem capable of the same mechanical filtration of these
submersible canisters, etc.

It's nice that you can use floss in them, which can filter tinier
particles and hold biobugs. But what I've seen is that it's quite
easy to have too much floss or gunk so the filtering power drops to
nothing. But putting in too little floss results in water just
traveling around, rather than through, the floss. Both problems seem
easy to accomplish and would jeopardize water quality.

Also, if the power goes off the HOB can be cleaned
before it fouls the tank, you can't say that for an internal filter or
internal sponge filter.

Is that really true? I would think that anything that would come so
easily out of the filter media when it is off & in a still tank would
either be loose particles (not so different than what's on/in the
gravel) that would quickly get sucked in again when turned on, or the
gooey almost liquid crud that probably gets forced through the media
normally anyway. Either way this stuff is slowly rotting in the water
regardless of whether it's in the filter or not, although being in a
running filter means it breaks down faster.

I like crystal clear water so much I'm on my second
Vortex diatomaceous earth filter. These are run after a partial water
change when the water *LOOKS* clean.... but just look at the color of that
powder after 30 minutes. ;-)

I haven't bought a diatomaceous earth filter because me research seems
to indicate that it is not necessary for normal, healthy
circumstances. According to some sources it is contraindicated unless
there is a specific problem as it can filter out some of the biobugs;
the last thing you want to do in a GF tank, esp around the time of a
water change.

I almost bought one for my planted tropical tank because of the
cloudiness from the fluorite. But I got talked out of it. I added
some clarifying solution to the new tank a few times. Now even that
isn't needed anymore. Instead all it takes is some floss in my rena
XP3 for beautiful results, even after planting or sloppy water
changes. Both tanks "look" clean, smell right, and water parameters
are correct. You probably have higher standards but right now that's
good enough for me.

I am somewhat of a newb, admittedly, but I do basically understand the
high bio-load needs of GF.

GF truly need the best filtration money can buy.

I understand that. That's why I'm running this past this group
instead of potentially wasting money on failed experiments that would
affect with my GF's health (& my stress level).

I value the recommendations from members in this group and wanted to
understand them a little better. I thought looking at the issue a
little deeper than usual might be useful, not only for myself, but for
other readers here. Thanks to you and all for the responses thus far.

I also understand the value of the wet/dry
biowheel type filters. I just don't get the difference between a
sponge or floss or similar in any of the other mentioned filters.

Why not try the internal filters then and see how they work for you?

I'm very close to doing that.

Moments before spontaneously combusting Jolly Fisherman at
was heard opining:

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:04:11 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

snip
But this is the part I don't understand. How is an external
canister
or HOB sponge filter better for a small goldfish tank than an
internal power/canister filter?

SMALL goldfish tank? What size is this tank? I hope you realize
how large healthy GF get. A common GF can reach almost 12" long.
There's a rule of 10g per GF but that doesn't really apply to adults
as even a 10g is too small for an adult GF. It would be like
keeping a person in a closet.

As I posted earlier it's a 20gal long. I understand this to be a
minimum size starter tank for 1-2 GF, at least for a while anyway.

Sorry, I did go back and check after I hit the "send" button. You would save
more in the longrun and buy a 30Long to start with. You can keep 3 adults
in a 30L with plenty of partial water changes.

I almost plunked down $80 for a drop dead gorgeous & massive oranda
the other day at my LFS. I almost slipped in my puddle of drool. I'm
not stupid though.

Wow! That must have been a real beauty! If you have a PetsMart near you
check them out. They get in really nice semi-adult beauties for around $25.
I'm talking nice QUALITY, not just size.

And how many GF do you have in this small tank? The more fish in
the tank the better the filtration and the more partial water
changes you will need to perform.

Only 1 small GF at the moment. I would never put in more than 2 small
or medium sized GF in it. IMHO I don't think a 20gal should sustain
more than 6-7 inches total of fat-bodied fish like GF in normal
maintenance routines.

I never go by inches of fish. It just doesn't work out for me. GF do much
better if they have a companion. Keep at least two together. Add the
second one when the cycle is finished. You will soon become as addicted to
these little beauties as I am. :-) They've been a lifelong passion of
mine. I just set up a 680g outdoor aboveground pool for my Shubunkins.
Some of my fancies will spend the summer outdoors in 150g pools. Some
fancies do well outdoors all year round.

I understand and once used inside air-driven box filters. The water
was always CLEANER, with less particulate matter once I started
using the HOB filters and the Fluval.

Air-driven box filters seem like very inefficient devices IMHO. They
don't seem capable of the same mechanical filtration of these
submersible canisters, etc.

Oh, you're right. They do work ok with a light fish load. Any type of
canister would beat them cold.

It's nice that you can use floss in them, which can filter tinier
particles and hold biobugs. But what I've seen is that it's quite
easy to have too much floss or gunk so the filtering power drops to
nothing. But putting in too little floss results in water just
traveling around, rather than through, the floss. Both problems seem
easy to accomplish and would jeopardize water quality.

You quickly learn how much floss to use and what color to change it at.
Floss is dirt cheap when you buy Quilt Batting at Wal*Mart. Just toss and
add more. I always kept fine gravel in the bottom to weight them down and
act as a bio-filter.

Also, if the power goes off the HOB can be cleaned
before it fouls the tank, you can't say that for an internal filter
or internal sponge filter.

Is that really true?

YES! And we lose power here as I live way out in the country. If it's not
lightening hitting a pole it's some drunk..... :-( We keep a kerosene
heater handy, candles and kerosene lamps.

I would think that anything that would come so
easily out of the filter media when it is off & in a still tank would
either be loose particles (not so different than what's on/in the
gravel) that would quickly get sucked in again when turned on,

Have you ever SMELLED a filter that was deprived of power (water flow) for
several hours? Some already smell foul - who would want to pump that back
into the tank? When we lose power for an hour or more I pull the sponges
from the Aquaclears and rinse them out in tank water.

or the
gooey almost liquid crud that probably gets forced through the media
normally anyway. Either way this stuff is slowly rotting in the water
regardless of whether it's in the filter or not, although being in a
running filter means it breaks down faster.

That's why squeezing the sponges is important. I don't let mine turn into
slimy masses of gook and globs...... On top of the sponges sit the bags of
tiny bio-balls or sintered glass bio beads. They get a weekly quick swish
in tank water as well. But remember - it's whatever works for YOU and YOUR
fish.

I like crystal clear water so much I'm on my second
Vortex diatomaceous earth filter. These are run after a partial
water change when the water *LOOKS* clean.... but just look at the
color of that powder after 30 minutes. ;-)

I haven't bought a diatomaceous earth filter because me research seems
to indicate that it is not necessary for normal, healthy
circumstances.

This is true - I have them because they polish the water and remove what
goes right through a regular filter. I only use mine after a water change.

According to some sources it is contraindicated unless
there is a specific problem as it can filter out some of the biobugs;
the last thing you want to do in a GF tank, esp around the time of a
water change.

The bio-bugs are ATTACHED the things in the aquarium. Very few are floating
around free in the water. Look what the DE filter is removing OTOH,... all
that fine crapola that goes right through sponges and floss. :-)

I almost bought one for my planted tropical tank because of the
cloudiness from the fluorite. But I got talked out of it. I added
some clarifying solution to the new tank a few times. Now even that
isn't needed anymore. Instead all it takes is some floss in my rena
XP3 for beautiful results, even after planting or sloppy water
changes. Both tanks "look" clean, smell right, and water parameters
are correct. You probably have higher standards but right now that's
good enough for me.

Like I sad above - whatever works for YOU! :-)

GF truly need the best filtration money can buy.

I understand that. That's why I'm running this past this group
instead of potentially wasting money on failed experiments that would
affect with my GF's health (& my stress level).

I value the recommendations from members in this group and wanted to
understand them a little better. I thought looking at the issue a
little deeper than usual might be useful, not only for myself, but for
other readers here. Thanks to you and all for the responses thus far.

You may also want to ask this on the misc (alt.aquaria.freshwater.misc)
group as more people pass through there than they do here.

I also understand the value of the wet/dry
biowheel type filters. I just don't get the difference between a
sponge or floss or similar in any of the other mentioned filters.

Why not try the internal filters then and see how they work for you?

I'm very close to doing that.

If they don't do the job you can always save it for a backup.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:06:18 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

Moments before spontaneously combusting Jolly Fisherman at
was heard opining:

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 10:04:11 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

snip
But this is the part I don't understand. How is an external
canister
or HOB sponge filter better for a small goldfish tank than an
internal power/canister filter?

SMALL goldfish tank? What size is this tank? I hope you realize
how large healthy GF get. A common GF can reach almost 12" long.
There's a rule of 10g per GF but that doesn't really apply to adults
as even a 10g is too small for an adult GF. It would be like
keeping a person in a closet.

As I posted earlier it's a 20gal long. I understand this to be a
minimum size starter tank for 1-2 GF, at least for a while anyway.

Sorry, I did go back and check after I hit the "send" button. You would save
more in the longrun and buy a 30Long to start with. You can keep 3 adults
in a 30L with plenty of partial water changes.

AFAIK 29long is 30 x 12½ x 17 which is too tall for that space.
Frankly if I'm going to install a larger tank in a different place
I'll get a nice stand/cabinet and go for a 55-90 gal.

I almost plunked down $80 for a drop dead gorgeous & massive oranda
the other day at my LFS. I almost slipped in my puddle of drool. I'm
not stupid though.

Wow! That must have been a real beauty! If you have a PetsMart near you
check them out. They get in really nice semi-adult beauties for around $25.
I'm talking nice QUALITY, not just size.

In the best Petco's Petsmarts near me $25 buys a so-so looking, iffy
health, & 3-4 inch body fancies. These were probably 10+ inches +
very long fins and very attractive & healthy.

And how many GF do you have in this small tank? The more fish in
the tank the better the filtration and the more partial water
changes you will need to perform.

Only 1 small GF at the moment. I would never put in more than 2 small
or medium sized GF in it. IMHO I don't think a 20gal should sustain
more than 6-7 inches total of fat-bodied fish like GF in normal
maintenance routines.

I never go by inches of fish. It just doesn't work out for me. GF do much
better if they have a companion. Keep at least two together. Add the
second one when the cycle is finished. You will soon become as addicted to
these little beauties as I am. :-) They've been a lifelong passion of
mine. I just set up a 680g outdoor aboveground pool for my Shubunkins.
Some of my fancies will spend the summer outdoors in 150g pools. Some
fancies do well outdoors all year round.

I like to make things as formulaic as possible so I like the rule of
thumb I once read which claimed at least 1gal/in for thin bodied, 2
gal/in for medium bodied, and 3gal/in for fat bodied like GF. I'm
also trying to keep in mind the larger picture of typically 10-30 gal
per GF. As I get more experienced I'm sure my opinion on these will
change.

I understand and once used inside air-driven box filters. The water
was always CLEANER, with less particulate matter once I started
using the HOB filters and the Fluval.

Air-driven box filters seem like very inefficient devices IMHO. They
don't seem capable of the same mechanical filtration of these
submersible canisters, etc.

Oh, you're right. They do work ok with a light fish load. Any type of
canister would beat them cold.

It's nice that you can use floss in them, which can filter tinier
particles and hold biobugs. But what I've seen is that it's quite
easy to have too much floss or gunk so the filtering power drops to
nothing. But putting in too little floss results in water just
traveling around, rather than through, the floss. Both problems seem
easy to accomplish and would jeopardize water quality.

You quickly learn how much floss to use and what color to change it at.

true.

Floss is dirt cheap when you buy Quilt Batting at Wal*Mart. Just toss and


that's actually another question I had. That's good to know there is
no difference.

add more. I always kept fine gravel in the bottom to weight them down and
act as a bio-filter.

Also, if the power goes off the HOB can be cleaned
before it fouls the tank, you can't say that for an internal filter
or internal sponge filter.

Is that really true?

YES! And we lose power here as I live way out in the country. If it's not
lightening hitting a pole it's some drunk..... :-( We keep a kerosene
heater handy, candles and kerosene lamps.

Well I haven't been so unlucky yet. I also have a few left over UPS's
which could ride out the average, short-lived outage that rarely
happens where I live.

I would think that anything that would come so
easily out of the filter media when it is off & in a still tank would
either be loose particles (not so different than what's on/in the
gravel) that would quickly get sucked in again when turned on,

Have you ever SMELLED a filter that was deprived of power (water flow) for
several hours? Some already smell foul - who would want to pump that back
into the tank? When we lose power for an hour or more I pull the sponges
from the Aquaclears and rinse them out in tank water.

Hasn't happened to me yet. Makes sense though as it gets deprived of
02.

or the
gooey almost liquid crud that probably gets forced through the media
normally anyway. Either way this stuff is slowly rotting in the water
regardless of whether it's in the filter or not, although being in a
running filter means it breaks down faster.

That's why squeezing the sponges is important. I don't let mine turn into
slimy masses of gook and globs...... On top of the sponges sit the bags of
tiny bio-balls or sintered glass bio beads. They get a weekly quick swish
in tank water as well. But remember - it's whatever works for YOU and YOUR
fish.

My cleaning is similar. I didn't think about all the die off and
rotting from O2 deprivation.

I like crystal clear water so much I'm on my second
Vortex diatomaceous earth filter. These are run after a partial
water change when the water *LOOKS* clean.... but just look at the
color of that powder after 30 minutes. ;-)

I haven't bought a diatomaceous earth filter because me research seems
to indicate that it is not necessary for normal, healthy
circumstances.

This is true - I have them because they polish the water and remove what
goes right through a regular filter. I only use mine after a water change.

I guess after a water change it's helpful because it removes what may
have been stirred up after a gravel vac & water change, in addition to
the finer suspended stuff that otherwise remains.

According to some sources it is contraindicated unless
there is a specific problem as it can filter out some of the biobugs;
the last thing you want to do in a GF tank, esp around the time of a
water change.

The bio-bugs are ATTACHED the things in the aquarium. Very few are floating
around free in the water. Look what the DE filter is removing OTOH,... all
that fine crapola that goes right through sponges and floss. :-)

Well indeed they are both free floating and attached to things. I
didn't know how important the suspended biobugs were. I guess in that
case a DE filter will only help. But I wonder how much it really
alters fish health & life span.

I almost bought one for my planted tropical tank because of the
cloudiness from the fluorite. But I got talked out of it. I added
some clarifying solution to the new tank a few times. Now even that
isn't needed anymore. Instead all it takes is some floss in my rena
XP3 for beautiful results, even after planting or sloppy water
changes. Both tanks "look" clean, smell right, and water parameters
are correct. You probably have higher standards but right now that's
good enough for me.

Like I sad above - whatever works for YOU! :-)

GF truly need the best filtration money can buy.

I understand that. That's why I'm running this past this group
instead of potentially wasting money on failed experiments that would
affect with my GF's health (& my stress level).

I value the recommendations from members in this group and wanted to
understand them a little better. I thought looking at the issue a
little deeper than usual might be useful, not only for myself, but for
other readers here. Thanks to you and all for the responses thus far.

You may also want to ask this on the misc (alt.aquaria.freshwater.misc)
group as more people pass through there than they do here.

I might. I wanted to get specifically GF opinions. But there are GF
ppl there as well.

I also understand the value of the wet/dry
biowheel type filters. I just don't get the difference between a
sponge or floss or similar in any of the other mentioned filters.

Why not try the internal filters then and see how they work for you?

I'm very close to doing that.

If they don't do the job you can always save it for a backup.

I'm not too excited about that. I already have a spare box filter and
soon to be retired Aquaclear. Both are only a few months old. If
another filter doesn't do the job, it wouldn't make for much of a
backup IMHO. But experimentation is probably what makes the most
makes right now.

Moments before spontaneously combusting Jolly Fisherman at
was heard opining:

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:06:18 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:
Sorry, I did go back and check after I hit the "send" button. You
would save more in the longrun and buy a 30Long to start with. You
can keep 3 adults in a 30L with plenty of partial water changes.
===========
AFAIK 29long is 30 x 12½ x 17 which is too tall for that space.
Frankly if I'm going to install a larger tank in a different place
I'll get a nice stand/cabinet and go for a 55-90 gal.

THAT would be the smartest move of all. :-)

I almost plunked down $80 for a drop dead gorgeous & massive oranda
the other day at my LFS. I almost slipped in my puddle of drool.
I'm not stupid though.

Wow! That must have been a real beauty! If you have a PetsMart
near you check them out. They get in really nice semi-adult
beauties for around $25. I'm talking nice QUALITY, not just size.

In the best Petco's Petsmarts near me $25 buys a so-so looking, iffy
health, & 3-4 inch body fancies. These were probably 10+ inches +
very long fins and very attractive & healthy.

Those are truly adult fish then. Probably retired breeders. Nothing wrong
with that.

Floss is dirt cheap when you buy Quilt Batting at Wal*Mart. Just
toss and


that's actually another question I had. That's good to know there is
no difference.

None but price from what I have seen.

This is true - I have them because they polish the water and remove
what goes right through a regular filter. I only use mine after a
water change.

I guess after a water change it's helpful because it removes what may
have been stirred up after a gravel vac & water change, in addition to
the finer suspended stuff that otherwise remains.

Exactly - plus I really run my fingers through the gravel to stir up as much
as possible before I refill the tank. Then the DE runs as I'm refilling it.
About 30 minutes after I finish refilling it the water is crystal clear. I
always do massive water changes also - about 80% at a time.

The bio-bugs are ATTACHED the things in the aquarium. Very few are
floating around free in the water. Look what the DE filter is
removing OTOH,... all that fine crapola that goes right through
sponges and floss. :-)

Well indeed they are both free floating and attached to things. I
didn't know how important the suspended biobugs were. I guess in that
case a DE filter will only help. But I wonder how much it really
alters fish health & life span.

I have no idea but it sure leaves them clean water! To make it even
cleaner you can add a Tbs. of fine activated charcoal the the Vortex bottle.

If they don't do the job you can always save it for a backup.

I'm not too excited about that. I already have a spare box filter and
soon to be retired Aquaclear. Both are only a few months old. If
another filter doesn't do the job, it wouldn't make for much of a
backup IMHO. But experimentation is probably what makes the most
makes right now.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 18:50:13 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

Moments before spontaneously combusting Jolly Fisherman at
was heard opining:

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:06:18 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:
Sorry, I did go back and check after I hit the "send" button. You
would save more in the longrun and buy a 30Long to start with. You
can keep 3 adults in a 30L with plenty of partial water changes.
===========
AFAIK 29long is 30 x 12½ x 17 which is too tall for that space.
Frankly if I'm going to install a larger tank in a different place
I'll get a nice stand/cabinet and go for a 55-90 gal.

THAT would be the smartest move of all. :-)

It's probably inevitable. I'm just resisting it right now.

I almost plunked down $80 for a drop dead gorgeous & massive oranda
the other day at my LFS. I almost slipped in my puddle of drool.
I'm not stupid though.

Wow! That must have been a real beauty! If you have a PetsMart
near you check them out. They get in really nice semi-adult
beauties for around $25. I'm talking nice QUALITY, not just size.

In the best Petco's Petsmarts near me $25 buys a so-so looking, iffy
health, & 3-4 inch body fancies. These were probably 10+ inches +
very long fins and very attractive & healthy.

Those are truly adult fish then. Probably retired breeders. Nothing wrong
with that.

About how old do you think these might be?