Cycling woes

David McDermott wrote:
I am surprised to hear that I have too many fish. I have cycled a tank with
one small fantail before and it went reasonably well. I have always lived
by the "one inch of fish per gallon" rule and I am certainly under that
limit now, probably in the 4-5 inch range for my 10 gallon tank. I have not
tested for nitrite yet - I didn't think there would be much point yet. My
reasoning is that continually rising ammonia levels should be evidence that
nitrite producing bacteria have not yet colonized the tank, is that correct?

Right. One small fantail is ideal for cycling a 10 gallon tank. You
have double that so the cycle will be much harder on you and your fish.

The one inch per gallon rule of thumb is for FULL stocking in a cycled,
biologically mature tank. You must gradually stock to that level, and
generally not for at least three months. Cycling works best with one
inch of fish or less per five gallons. The "inch per gallon" rule of
thumb really only applies to small, normally shaped fish like platies,
tetras, or barbs. Fat, fancy goldfish like fantails have much more bulk
per inch of length than tetras. They require a lot more oxygen and put
out a lot more waste and ammonia so you have to stock fewer inches per
gallon. The rule completely breaks down with large fish like oscars or
mature 8" goldfish.

Nitrite and ammonia always overlap some in a cycle. As soon as the
bacteria that break down ammonia start to get established, nitrite
appears. Once you see nitrite, ammonia usually falls pretty fast.

I have gotten several recommendations for BioSpira over Cycle, and I will
switch to that. Also I have been putting salt in the aquarium. Do I need
to do this repeatedly or just one initial dose, then replace with water
changes?

You have two choices. Right now, while your water changes are not very
consistent, it's easiest to add one initial dose and replace with water
changes. Once you're on a water change schedule, you can add 2 tsp of
salt with each water change. (Assuming you're changing 1/4 of the water
this will give you about 1 tsp/gallon in the tank.)

Assuming the fish die (let's hope not but I must prepare for the worst) will
the tank have enough organic material to finish the cycle itself or will I
immediately need to add more fish? If I could let the cycle finish on its
own I would not have to put anymore fish through the stress.

You still need an ammonia source for the bacteria. I'm not good with
fishless cycles, but I'm sure someone can tell you how much ordinary
ammonia to add to finish maturing your filter. Personally, I'd change
enough water to drop ammonia below 0.25 ppm and add ONE new goldfish and
ONE dose of BioSpira.

Thanks again for all the help!

You're welcome. Good luck with your fish.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Altum wrote,
I'm not good with
fishless cycles, but I'm sure someone can tell you how much ordinary
ammonia to add to finish maturing your filter. Personally......

Fishless cycle is the only way I would do a cycle - no fish to harm or
kill, a *lot* less work (no water changes), and a *lot* faster (10 to
14 days instead of 4 to 8 weeks). 5 to 6 drops per gal. of pure
ammonia is around 5ppm, which would be enough ammonia for a full tank
of fish. The ammonia only needs to be put into the tank _one_ time at
5ppm. Daily 'feeding' of ammonia may lead to what is called a 'never
ending cycle'. If the filter was seeded with squeezings from an
established filter, nitrites should show up around the 7th or 8th day
and drop to 0 somewhere between the 10th and 14th day. NitrAtes will be
quite high at this point and a 50 to 70% water change is needed to
bring the levels down enough for fish. If wanted, the *full* fish load
can be put into the tank at this time. If you are going to wait a
day/week, before adding fish, one or two drops of pure ammonia needs to
be added to the tank each day to 'feed' the now established bacteria
colony untill the fish are added............. Frank

"Frank" wrote in message
oups.com...
Altum wrote,
I'm not good with
fishless cycles, but I'm sure someone can tell you how much ordinary
ammonia to add to finish maturing your filter. Personally......

Fishless cycle is the only way I would do a cycle - no fish to harm or
kill, a *lot* less work (no water changes), and a *lot* faster (10 to
14 days instead of 4 to 8 weeks). 5 to 6 drops per gal. of pure
ammonia is around 5ppm, which would be enough ammonia for a full tank
of fish. The ammonia only needs to be put into the tank _one_ time at
5ppm. Daily 'feeding' of ammonia may lead to what is called a 'never
ending cycle'. If the filter was seeded with squeezings from an
established filter, nitrites should show up around the 7th or 8th day
and drop to 0 somewhere between the 10th and 14th day. NitrAtes will be
quite high at this point and a 50 to 70% water change is needed to
bring the levels down enough for fish. If wanted, the *full* fish load
can be put into the tank at this time. If you are going to wait a
day/week, before adding fish, one or two drops of pure ammonia needs to
be added to the tank each day to 'feed' the now established bacteria
colony untill the fish are added............. Frank


I think for my next tank I will try fishless. I have always disliked
putting the fish through the stress of a cycle, it seems unnecessarily cruel
and the worst part is there isn't much you can do to stop it.

I changed about 15% of my water again last night and tested the ammonia this
morning. It is down a bit, to about 0.75 ppm. I was hoping it would be
down even further after diluting but I guess it's still a small victory.
I'm going to do another 10 - 15% change either tonight or tomorrow. I know
all this fresh water isn't exactly good either but I always dechlorinate so
hopefully that will ease the stress a bit.

I was checking my filter last night ( a Whisper 10) and I'm a little
confused. I have asked about this filter in the newsgroup before and it was
described as having the Bio-bag and an extra foam insert meant to house the
bacteria. Well mine has no such foam insert and I assumed that the flossy
biobag that contains the carbon would house the bacteria. Does anyone else
have this filter? If so did mine for some reason ship without the foam and
should I be complaining to the pet store? The filter was sealed and
everything so I didn't suspect anything until I read some other posts.
Could this be the reason it is taking so long for the ammonia to drop?

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On 2006-04-26, David McDermott wrote:

"Frank" wrote in message
oups.com...
Altum wrote,
I'm not good with
fishless cycles, but I'm sure someone can tell you how much ordinary
ammonia to add to finish maturing your filter. Personally......

Fishless cycle is the only way I would do a cycle - no fish to harm or
kill, a *lot* less work (no water changes), and a *lot* faster (10 to
14 days instead of 4 to 8 weeks). 5 to 6 drops per gal. of pure

[snip]

I think for my next tank I will try fishless. I have always disliked
putting the fish through the stress of a cycle, it seems unnecessarily cruel
and the worst part is there isn't much you can do to stop it.

I changed about 15% of my water again last night and tested the ammonia this
morning. It is down a bit, to about 0.75 ppm. I was hoping it would be
down even further after diluting but I guess it's still a small victory.
I'm going to do another 10 - 15% change either tonight or tomorrow. I know
all this fresh water isn't exactly good either but I always dechlorinate so
hopefully that will ease the stress a bit.

I was checking my filter last night ( a Whisper 10) and I'm a little
confused. I have asked about this filter in the newsgroup before and it was
described as having the Bio-bag and an extra foam insert meant to house the
bacteria. Well mine has no such foam insert and I assumed that the flossy
biobag that contains the carbon would house the bacteria. Does anyone else
have this filter? If so did mine for some reason ship without the foam and
should I be complaining to the pet store? The filter was sealed and
everything so I didn't suspect anything until I read some other posts.
Could this be the reason it is taking so long for the ammonia to drop?



I have been struggling to get a 10 gallon tank to cycle as well. Mine
contains 5 tetras and one lonely rasbora. I tried Cycle but as many of
the kindly experts here have noted, it is basically useless, and my
experience shows that it hasn't accelerated my cycle at all.

I have done 25% water changes whenever the ammonia was getting real
high, like above 2 ppm. The fish get one small meal of Tetra flakes
every day and appear very lively and healthy.

I also have a Whisper filter with a biobag and no foam insert. I assume
the bacteria will colonize the filter mesh, but I could be wrong. The
precise model is: Whisper Power Filter for 5-15 Gallon Aquariums,
Product #25798. I believe it was noted that there are a variety of
whisper models, so possibly yours and mine just lack the foam insert
filter.

In any case, I set my tank up fishless on roughly 10 March, and added
some fish two weeks later (3 neon tetras died fairly quickly, while all
the others are going strong). And finally today, YAY!, I see 0.25 ppm
of Nitrite, and ammonia about 1.5 ppm. So I will watch the ammonia and
perhaps *not* change the water, then check chemistry tommorrow to see
how high the readings are surging. In sum, my tank is *still not* fully
cycled after more than 6 weeks--but it is starting!!

Thanks to all gave me their generous advice, it has been very
informative. Hopefully your goldfish and tank will fare very well with
the fine assistance available in this group!.


Cheers,

Fred

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--
"Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after."
--Alphonse Allais

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:17:09 -0000, "Frederick B. Henry Jr."
wrote:

Most snipped -----------------

I also have a Whisper filter with a biobag and no foam insert. I assume
the bacteria will colonize the filter mesh, but I could be wrong. The
precise model is: Whisper Power Filter for 5-15 Gallon Aquariums,
Product #25798. I believe it was noted that there are a variety of
whisper models, so possibly yours and mine just lack the foam insert
filter.

I've finally found the filter you are using. I was only able to locate
it at the Tetra web site, not at any of the major online fish supply
retailers or Petco. It's part of an unusual line of Whispers, a line I
have never seen before. The designation "5-15 Gallons" threw me off,
because all of the whispers on store shelves are designated in steps
of 10 gallons, not 5, ie 10-20, up to 30, 40, no 5's." Perhaps it is
being marketed specifically for bundling with aquarium kits or
something? I've discovered that the smallest of this line of Whisper
filters do not include the sponge, but rely on the "deeply etched
frame" of the biobag to grow the colony of bacteria, along with, of
course the other surfaces of your aquarium, the gravel, ornaments,
etc. This is an extremely old Whisper design, that I thought they
buried when they brought in the sponges. Whisper filters off the
shelf, I can't vouch for those that are part of a kit, beginning at
the 20 (up to 20 gallons) include the bio foam insert. And you are
going to love this - Missus Gardener just called up the steps asking
why I just screamed - you can purchase a Whisper bio-foam for the 5-15
filter for $2.79 at this link.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

Add postage and handling and you could buy a whole new filter!

more snipped ---------------

That said . . . I used Whisper filters of nearly all sizes for at
least 10 or 15 years before they added the foam inserts, and I never
had a problem with biological filtration. The sponge was a landmark
improvement for Tetra at the time it was introduced, it probably put
them back in the running against the AquaClear foam blocks and the
Marineland biowheels. I run 10 gallon tanks for fry which usually get
a sponge filter only and hospital which has a whisper 20. I am sorry
if I caused or added to any confusion for people using these 5-15
Whispers - I recently read a list of the top ten hip phrases of 2005
that need to be forgotten by the end of 2006 and near the top of the
list was "my bad". So I will do my part in eliminating that bit of
silliness from our language. "My apology" works better for me.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

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On 2006-04-26, Mister Gardener wrote:
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:17:09 -0000, "Frederick B. Henry Jr."
wrote:

Most snipped -----------------

I also have a Whisper filter with a biobag and no foam insert. I assume
the bacteria will colonize the filter mesh, but I could be wrong. The
precise model is: Whisper Power Filter for 5-15 Gallon Aquariums,
Product #25798. I believe it was noted that there are a variety of
whisper models, so possibly yours and mine just lack the foam insert
filter.

I've finally found the filter you are using. I was only able to locate
it at the Tetra web site, not at any of the major online fish supply
retailers or Petco. It's part of an unusual line of Whispers, a line I
have never seen before. The designation "5-15 Gallons" threw me off,
because all of the whispers on store shelves are designated in steps
of 10 gallons, not 5, ie 10-20, up to 30, 40, no 5's." Perhaps it is
being marketed specifically for bundling with aquarium kits or
something? I've discovered that the smallest of this line of Whisper
filters do not include the sponge, but rely on the "deeply etched
frame" of the biobag to grow the colony of bacteria, along with, of
course the other surfaces of your aquarium, the gravel, ornaments,
etc. This is an extremely old Whisper design, that I thought they
buried when they brought in the sponges. Whisper filters off the
shelf, I can't vouch for those that are part of a kit, beginning at
the 20 (up to 20 gallons) include the bio foam insert. And you are
going to love this - Missus Gardener just called up the steps asking
why I just screamed - you can purchase a Whisper bio-foam for the 5-15
filter for $2.79 at this link.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

Add postage and handling and you could buy a whole new filter!

more snipped ---------------

That said . . . I used Whisper filters of nearly all sizes for at
least 10 or 15 years before they added the foam inserts, and I never
had a problem with biological filtration. The sponge was a landmark
improvement for Tetra at the time it was introduced, it probably put
them back in the running against the AquaClear foam blocks and the
Marineland biowheels. I run 10 gallon tanks for fry which usually get
a sponge filter only and hospital which has a whisper 20. I am sorry
if I caused or added to any confusion for people using these 5-15
Whispers - I recently read a list of the top ten hip phrases of 2005
that need to be forgotten by the end of 2006 and near the top of the
list was "my bad". So I will do my part in eliminating that bit of
silliness from our language. "My apology" works better for me.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me


Thanks for all the info! I think I will let the current cycle happen
and keep the whisper I have sans bio-sponge. I'm sure I will add more
tanks as I become more knowledgeable and experienced, and then try less
basic filters---mine came in a "kit" probably alot like the one David
McDermott posted about.

Cheers,

Fred
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--
"Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after."
--Alphonse Allais

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Now if you could help me with the pulling business.....I've been in a
cultural cave too long I suppose!! :\

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:17:09 -0000, "Frederick B. Henry Jr."
wrote:

In any case, I set my tank up fishless on roughly 10 March, and added
some fish two weeks later (3 neon tetras died fairly quickly, while all
the others are going strong). And finally today, YAY!, I see 0.25 ppm
of Nitrite, and ammonia about 1.5 ppm. So I will watch the ammonia and
perhaps *not* change the water, then check chemistry tommorrow to see
how high the readings are surging. In sum, my tank is *still not* fully
cycled after more than 6 weeks--but it is starting!!

Congratulations! It's sort of like becoming a father, eh?

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

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On 2006-04-26, Mister Gardener wrote:
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:17:09 -0000, "Frederick B. Henry Jr."
wrote:

In any case, I set my tank up fishless on roughly 10 March, and added
some fish two weeks later (3 neon tetras died fairly quickly, while all
the others are going strong). And finally today, YAY!, I see 0.25 ppm
of Nitrite, and ammonia about 1.5 ppm. So I will watch the ammonia and
perhaps *not* change the water, then check chemistry tommorrow to see
how high the readings are surging. In sum, my tank is *still not* fully
cycled after more than 6 weeks--but it is starting!!

Congratulations! It's sort of like becoming a father, eh?

Yes, it is indeed exciting, especially after all the waiting, and
watching, and testing, and hoping the fish don't suffer overly or die.

I still have brown spots growing on the glass and some of the plastic
plants' leaves and small spots on gravel, which a prior poster said
would go away eventually. I hope so as they are somewhat unsightly (my
2.5 year-old daughter said they looked like "poop", heh).

Cheers,

Fred

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--
"Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after."
--Alphonse Allais

Ahhh ....that makes sense. My whisper is from a kit - serves me right for
trying to save a few bucks. I'm sure the tank could probably manage
without, but I will definitely get a spong as well. That way I won't have
to be so careful with the precious biobag since it won't be the only
bacteria home in the filter. I must say, I have been quite happy with this
kit though, it came with literally everything I needed except for this
little hitch. I have in the past avoided kits, never trusting their quality
and always assuming that I know what I need better than the guys who
assemble the kits. Now that I understand the Whisper design and I actually
know what model I have I feel much better about my decision. Although I'm
sure my fish who are currently bathing in ammonia will have a slightly
different point of view......
"Frederick B. Henry Jr." wrote in message
...
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On 2006-04-26, David McDermott wrote:

"Frank" wrote in message
oups.com...
Altum wrote,
I'm not good with
fishless cycles, but I'm sure someone can tell you how much ordinary
ammonia to add to finish maturing your filter. Personally......

Fishless cycle is the only way I would do a cycle - no fish to harm or
kill, a *lot* less work (no water changes), and a *lot* faster (10 to
14 days instead of 4 to 8 weeks). 5 to 6 drops per gal. of pure

[snip]

I think for my next tank I will try fishless. I have always disliked
putting the fish through the stress of a cycle, it seems unnecessarily
cruel
and the worst part is there isn't much you can do to stop it.

I changed about 15% of my water again last night and tested the ammonia
this
morning. It is down a bit, to about 0.75 ppm. I was hoping it would be
down even further after diluting but I guess it's still a small victory.
I'm going to do another 10 - 15% change either tonight or tomorrow. I
know
all this fresh water isn't exactly good either but I always dechlorinate
so
hopefully that will ease the stress a bit.

I was checking my filter last night ( a Whisper 10) and I'm a little
confused. I have asked about this filter in the newsgroup before and it
was
described as having the Bio-bag and an extra foam insert meant to house
the
bacteria. Well mine has no such foam insert and I assumed that the
flossy
biobag that contains the carbon would house the bacteria. Does anyone
else
have this filter? If so did mine for some reason ship without the foam
and
should I be complaining to the pet store? The filter was sealed and
everything so I didn't suspect anything until I read some other posts.
Could this be the reason it is taking so long for the ammonia to drop?



I have been struggling to get a 10 gallon tank to cycle as well. Mine
contains 5 tetras and one lonely rasbora. I tried Cycle but as many of
the kindly experts here have noted, it is basically useless, and my
experience shows that it hasn't accelerated my cycle at all.

I have done 25% water changes whenever the ammonia was getting real
high, like above 2 ppm. The fish get one small meal of Tetra flakes
every day and appear very lively and healthy.

I also have a Whisper filter with a biobag and no foam insert. I assume
the bacteria will colonize the filter mesh, but I could be wrong. The
precise model is: Whisper Power Filter for 5-15 Gallon Aquariums,
Product #25798. I believe it was noted that there are a variety of
whisper models, so possibly yours and mine just lack the foam insert
filter.

In any case, I set my tank up fishless on roughly 10 March, and added
some fish two weeks later (3 neon tetras died fairly quickly, while all
the others are going strong). And finally today, YAY!, I see 0.25 ppm
of Nitrite, and ammonia about 1.5 ppm. So I will watch the ammonia and
perhaps *not* change the water, then check chemistry tommorrow to see
how high the readings are surging. In sum, my tank is *still not* fully
cycled after more than 6 weeks--but it is starting!!

Thanks to all gave me their generous advice, it has been very
informative. Hopefully your goldfish and tank will fare very well with
the fine assistance available in this group!.


Cheers,

Fred

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--
"Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after."
--Alphonse Allais