New Angel

Yeah, here I go again. I've been doing a lot of reading and talking to
a few people, and I'm ready to go again. I firmly believe that my
first bunch of young angels died because of water chemistry problems.
My fault. The second batch were quite weakened from having just days
earlier coming though a chloramine attack. Not all agree. Opinions
abound on the topic of angel health issues. Most popular seems to be
the Angelfish Virus, or Angel Aids theories. And the warning that once
the disease has struck a tank, it will remain in the water, or be
carried by other, healthy fish. One of the university studies I read
that was well researched found that angels sent to them, dead or
alive, who were believed to have the virus, were found to have
numerous illnesses, but nothing new, and no virus isolated. I'm not
saying that the virus is a hoax, I know it is real, but I am seriously
trying to find reliable information, scientific studies, something
more than "I had angelfish once and they all died". One way to help
myself decide about the "once it's in your tank you can never keep
angels again" advice is to put a healthy angel fish into the tank
where I lost 12 angels in 8 weeks. I called Vance, my local fish guy,
and asked if he happened to have any angels. He rarely buys angels
from wholesalers, he only sells the odd group of youngsters that
individuals bring him after their first, and usually last, successful
home spawning. I found 3 silver angels in one tank, and a single koi
angel in another. I did the usual check-em-out routine, opened the top
and touched my finger to the water, follow my finger across the glass,
that kind of stuff, and the koi was by far the brightest and boldest
of the lot. It was a little over the size of a quarter. 12 bucks!
Vance was talking to a man at the other end of the store, 2 rooms
away, and I called out, Vance I want to buy this angel but I am not
paying
12 "choose your expletive from Roy's extensive list" dollars for an
experiment! He called back "what experiment", and as I approached, he
introduced me to the guy he was talking with and the three of us went
over my plans. I got the fish for $6, because, "I have a guy who has
been promising to supply me for over a year, and all he ever brings in
is 4 or 5 every few months, this guy's not as serious as he says he
is. So that's why you get the fish for $6. Fine. And if it dies in my
experiment I will demand my six bucks back. He's been at the store for
3 weeks. He's been with me for 27 hours and 29 minutes so far, and I
just fed him some freeze dried brine shrimp that he is eagerly chasing
all over the tank. I'll decide on some arbitrary time frame, 2 weeks,
6 weeks, I don't know yet, before I feel safe adding a new group to
that tank. Meanwhile, If anyone has pointers to scientific articles on
freshwater angelfish diseases, please send them my way.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Mister Gardener wrote:
Yeah, here I go again. I've been doing a lot of reading and talking to
a few people, and I'm ready to go again. I firmly believe that my
first bunch of young angels died because of water chemistry problems.
My fault. The second batch were quite weakened from having just days
earlier coming though a chloramine attack. Not all agree. Opinions
abound on the topic of angel health issues. Most popular seems to be
the Angelfish Virus, or Angel Aids theories. And the warning that once
the disease has struck a tank, it will remain in the water, or be
carried by other, healthy fish. One of the university studies I read
that was well researched found that angels sent to them, dead or
alive, who were believed to have the virus, were found to have
numerous illnesses, but nothing new, and no virus isolated. I'm not
saying that the virus is a hoax, I know it is real, but I am seriously
trying to find reliable information, scientific studies, something
more than "I had angelfish once and they all died". One way to help
myself decide about the "once it's in your tank you can never keep
angels again" advice is to put a healthy angel fish into the tank
where I lost 12 angels in 8 weeks. I called Vance, my local fish guy,
and asked if he happened to have any angels. He rarely buys angels
from wholesalers, he only sells the odd group of youngsters that
individuals bring him after their first, and usually last, successful
home spawning. I found 3 silver angels in one tank, and a single koi
angel in another. I did the usual check-em-out routine, opened the top
and touched my finger to the water, follow my finger across the glass,
that kind of stuff, and the koi was by far the brightest and boldest
of the lot. It was a little over the size of a quarter. 12 bucks!
Vance was talking to a man at the other end of the store, 2 rooms
away, and I called out, Vance I want to buy this angel but I am not
paying
12 "choose your expletive from Roy's extensive list" dollars for an
experiment! He called back "what experiment", and as I approached, he
introduced me to the guy he was talking with and the three of us went
over my plans. I got the fish for $6, because, "I have a guy who has
been promising to supply me for over a year, and all he ever brings in
is 4 or 5 every few months, this guy's not as serious as he says he
is. So that's why you get the fish for $6. Fine. And if it dies in my
experiment I will demand my six bucks back. He's been at the store for
3 weeks. He's been with me for 27 hours and 29 minutes so far, and I
just fed him some freeze dried brine shrimp that he is eagerly chasing
all over the tank. I'll decide on some arbitrary time frame, 2 weeks,
6 weeks, I don't know yet, before I feel safe adding a new group to
that tank. Meanwhile, If anyone has pointers to scientific articles on
freshwater angelfish diseases, please send them my way.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

I'm not sure what you're asking for as far as articles. A quick search
with Google Scholar turned up a couple of references that show that
angelfish viruses do exist. Iridoviruses and similar viruses are
transmitted through the water. It would be impossible to even guess how
long they're viable in a tank with no fish. Some of the viruses are
barely even characterized - the Sudthongkong article identifies a
previously unknown virus.

Rodger H.D., Kobs M.; Macartney A., Frerichs G.N., Systemic iridovirus
infection in freshwater angelfish, Pterophyllum scalare (Lichtenstein),
Journal of Fish Diseases, Volume 20, Number 1, 1997, pp. 69-72(4).
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...1997.d01-106.x

C. Sudthongkong, M. Miyata, T. Miyazaki, Viral DNA sequences of genes
encoding the ATPase and the major capsid protein of tropical iridovirus
isolates which are pathogenic to fishes in Japan, South China Sea and
Southeast Asian countries, Archives of Virology, Volume 147, Issue 11,
Oct 2002, Pages 2089 - 2109, DOI 10.1007/s00705-002-0883-6 , URL
http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00705-002-0883-6

Good luck with your new fish!

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

On Tue, 02 May 2006 20:02:28 GMT, Altum
wrote:

Mister Gardener wrote:
Yeah, here I go again. I've been doing a lot of reading and talking to
a few people, and I'm ready to go again. I firmly believe that my
first bunch of young angels died because of water chemistry problems.
My fault. The second batch were quite weakened from having just days
earlier coming though a chloramine attack. Not all agree. Opinions
abound on the topic of angel health issues. Most popular seems to be
the Angelfish Virus, or Angel Aids theories. And the warning that once
the disease has struck a tank, it will remain in the water, or be
carried by other, healthy fish. One of the university studies I read
that was well researched found that angels sent to them, dead or
alive, who were believed to have the virus, were found to have
numerous illnesses, but nothing new, and no virus isolated. I'm not
saying that the virus is a hoax, I know it is real, but I am seriously
trying to find reliable information, scientific studies, something
more than "I had angelfish once and they all died". One way to help
myself decide about the "once it's in your tank you can never keep
angels again" advice is to put a healthy angel fish into the tank
where I lost 12 angels in 8 weeks. I called Vance, my local fish guy,
and asked if he happened to have any angels. He rarely buys angels
from wholesalers, he only sells the odd group of youngsters that
individuals bring him after their first, and usually last, successful
home spawning. I found 3 silver angels in one tank, and a single koi
angel in another. I did the usual check-em-out routine, opened the top
and touched my finger to the water, follow my finger across the glass,
that kind of stuff, and the koi was by far the brightest and boldest
of the lot. It was a little over the size of a quarter. 12 bucks!
Vance was talking to a man at the other end of the store, 2 rooms
away, and I called out, Vance I want to buy this angel but I am not
paying
12 "choose your expletive from Roy's extensive list" dollars for an
experiment! He called back "what experiment", and as I approached, he
introduced me to the guy he was talking with and the three of us went
over my plans. I got the fish for $6, because, "I have a guy who has
been promising to supply me for over a year, and all he ever brings in
is 4 or 5 every few months, this guy's not as serious as he says he
is. So that's why you get the fish for $6. Fine. And if it dies in my
experiment I will demand my six bucks back. He's been at the store for
3 weeks. He's been with me for 27 hours and 29 minutes so far, and I
just fed him some freeze dried brine shrimp that he is eagerly chasing
all over the tank. I'll decide on some arbitrary time frame, 2 weeks,
6 weeks, I don't know yet, before I feel safe adding a new group to
that tank. Meanwhile, If anyone has pointers to scientific articles on
freshwater angelfish diseases, please send them my way.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

I'm not sure what you're asking for as far as articles. A quick search
with Google Scholar turned up a couple of references that show that
angelfish viruses do exist. Iridoviruses and similar viruses are
transmitted through the water. It would be impossible to even guess how
long they're viable in a tank with no fish. Some of the viruses are
barely even characterized - the Sudthongkong article identifies a
previously unknown virus.

Rodger H.D., Kobs M.; Macartney A., Frerichs G.N., Systemic iridovirus
infection in freshwater angelfish, Pterophyllum scalare (Lichtenstein),
Journal of Fish Diseases, Volume 20, Number 1, 1997, pp. 69-72(4).
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...1997.d01-106.x

C. Sudthongkong, M. Miyata, T. Miyazaki, Viral DNA sequences of genes
encoding the ATPase and the major capsid protein of tropical iridovirus
isolates which are pathogenic to fishes in Japan, South China Sea and
Southeast Asian countries, Archives of Virology, Volume 147, Issue 11,
Oct 2002, Pages 2089 - 2109, DOI 10.1007/s00705-002-0883-6 , URL
http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00705-002-0883-6

Good luck with your new fish!

Yup. Stuff like this. Makes for good reading when I'm at my computer
with a pipefull of good tobacco and a cup of coffee at 5 in the
morning when no one wants to come out and play. A couple of reasonably
documented articles showed evidence that the "virus" has been
transferred by healthy "carriers". I don't believe I am going to find
a single answer that all agree on - but I can, already am, weighing
whatever I find. My gut feeling is that yes this is a serious concern,
but yes, it is also being used too often as an excuse for poor
husbandry,either in the home aquarium or at the suppliers end. I want
to be well informed before I plunk down a hundred bucks or more from a
mail order dealer.

Tell me how to find Google scholar. Please.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Mister Gardener wrote:

Yup. Stuff like this. Makes for good reading when I'm at my computer
with a pipefull of good tobacco and a cup of coffee at 5 in the
morning when no one wants to come out and play. A couple of reasonably
documented articles showed evidence that the "virus" has been
transferred by healthy "carriers". I don't believe I am going to find
a single answer that all agree on - but I can, already am, weighing
whatever I find. My gut feeling is that yes this is a serious concern,
but yes, it is also being used too often as an excuse for poor
husbandry,either in the home aquarium or at the suppliers end. I want
to be well informed before I plunk down a hundred bucks or more from a
mail order dealer.

Tell me how to find Google scholar. Please.

http://scholar.google.com. It's pretty nice, especially if you use the
advanced search and restrict the articles by date to the more recent
research.

When you've formed an opinion, I'd love to hear the details. One of
these years (when I can finally afford it) I'm getting altums and the
more I know, the better.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

"Mister Gardener" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 02 May 2006 20:02:28 GMT, Altum
wrote:

Mister Gardener wrote:
Yeah, here I go again. I've been doing a lot of reading and talking to
a few people, and I'm ready to go again. I firmly believe that my
first bunch of young angels died because of water chemistry problems.
My fault. The second batch were quite weakened from having just days
earlier coming though a chloramine attack. Not all agree. Opinions
abound on the topic of angel health issues. Most popular seems to be
the Angelfish Virus, or Angel Aids theories. And the warning that once
the disease has struck a tank, it will remain in the water, or be
carried by other, healthy fish. One of the university studies I read
that was well researched found that angels sent to them, dead or
alive, who were believed to have the virus, were found to have
numerous illnesses, but nothing new, and no virus isolated. I'm not
saying that the virus is a hoax, I know it is real, but I am seriously
trying to find reliable information, scientific studies, something
more than "I had angelfish once and they all died". One way to help
myself decide about the "once it's in your tank you can never keep
angels again" advice is to put a healthy angel fish into the tank
where I lost 12 angels in 8 weeks. I called Vance, my local fish guy,
and asked if he happened to have any angels. He rarely buys angels
from wholesalers, he only sells the odd group of youngsters that
individuals bring him after their first, and usually last, successful
home spawning. I found 3 silver angels in one tank, and a single koi
angel in another. I did the usual check-em-out routine, opened the top
and touched my finger to the water, follow my finger across the glass,
that kind of stuff, and the koi was by far the brightest and boldest
of the lot. It was a little over the size of a quarter. 12 bucks!
Vance was talking to a man at the other end of the store, 2 rooms
away, and I called out, Vance I want to buy this angel but I am not
paying
12 "choose your expletive from Roy's extensive list" dollars for an
experiment! He called back "what experiment", and as I approached, he
introduced me to the guy he was talking with and the three of us went
over my plans. I got the fish for $6, because, "I have a guy who has
been promising to supply me for over a year, and all he ever brings in
is 4 or 5 every few months, this guy's not as serious as he says he
is. So that's why you get the fish for $6. Fine. And if it dies in my
experiment I will demand my six bucks back. He's been at the store for
3 weeks. He's been with me for 27 hours and 29 minutes so far, and I
just fed him some freeze dried brine shrimp that he is eagerly chasing
all over the tank. I'll decide on some arbitrary time frame, 2 weeks,
6 weeks, I don't know yet, before I feel safe adding a new group to
that tank. Meanwhile, If anyone has pointers to scientific articles on
freshwater angelfish diseases, please send them my way.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

I'm not sure what you're asking for as far as articles. A quick search
with Google Scholar turned up a couple of references that show that
angelfish viruses do exist. Iridoviruses and similar viruses are
transmitted through the water. It would be impossible to even guess how
long they're viable in a tank with no fish. Some of the viruses are
barely even characterized - the Sudthongkong article identifies a
previously unknown virus.

Rodger H.D., Kobs M.; Macartney A., Frerichs G.N., Systemic iridovirus
infection in freshwater angelfish, Pterophyllum scalare (Lichtenstein),
Journal of Fish Diseases, Volume 20, Number 1, 1997, pp. 69-72(4).
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...1997.d01-106.x

C. Sudthongkong, M. Miyata, T. Miyazaki, Viral DNA sequences of genes
encoding the ATPase and the major capsid protein of tropical iridovirus
isolates which are pathogenic to fishes in Japan, South China Sea and
Southeast Asian countries, Archives of Virology, Volume 147, Issue 11,
Oct 2002, Pages 2089 - 2109, DOI 10.1007/s00705-002-0883-6 , URL
http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00705-002-0883-6

Good luck with your new fish!

Yup. Stuff like this. Makes for good reading when I'm at my computer
with a pipefull of good tobacco and a cup of coffee at 5 in the
morning when no one wants to come out and play. A couple of reasonably
documented articles showed evidence that the "virus" has been
transferred by healthy "carriers". I don't believe I am going to find
a single answer that all agree on - but I can, already am, weighing
whatever I find. My gut feeling is that yes this is a serious concern,
but yes, it is also being used too often as an excuse for poor
husbandry,either in the home aquarium or at the suppliers end. I want
to be well informed before I plunk down a hundred bucks or more from a
mail order dealer.

Tell me how to find Google scholar. Please.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

I really like the koi angels, seen some pics on the web sight you gave me...
Tomorrow when I don't have three kids running the house... I will look some
stuff up for you and see what I can find, I am pretty good at sifting
through all the garbage on the net and finding stuff...I would like to find
out my self as I am thinking about buying some of the bigger angels at the
oddball place when we get done with setting up the tank..they are a bit on
the expensive side
Nik
good luck with the little guy/girl angel....I was thinking while reading
your post the last couple times you told us about getting them and posted
it, is when you started having trouble, jinxed

On Tue, 2 May 2006 21:12:24 -0400, "Nikki"
wrote:


"Mister Gardener" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 02 May 2006 20:02:28 GMT, Altum
wrote:

Mister Gardener wrote:
Yeah, here I go again. I've been doing a lot of reading and talking to
a few people, and I'm ready to go again. I firmly believe that my
first bunch of young angels died because of water chemistry problems.
My fault. The second batch were quite weakened from having just days
earlier coming though a chloramine attack. Not all agree. Opinions
abound on the topic of angel health issues. Most popular seems to be
the Angelfish Virus, or Angel Aids theories. And the warning that once
the disease has struck a tank, it will remain in the water, or be
carried by other, healthy fish. One of the university studies I read
that was well researched found that angels sent to them, dead or
alive, who were believed to have the virus, were found to have
numerous illnesses, but nothing new, and no virus isolated. I'm not
saying that the virus is a hoax, I know it is real, but I am seriously
trying to find reliable information, scientific studies, something
more than "I had angelfish once and they all died". One way to help
myself decide about the "once it's in your tank you can never keep
angels again" advice is to put a healthy angel fish into the tank
where I lost 12 angels in 8 weeks. I called Vance, my local fish guy,
and asked if he happened to have any angels. He rarely buys angels
from wholesalers, he only sells the odd group of youngsters that
individuals bring him after their first, and usually last, successful
home spawning. I found 3 silver angels in one tank, and a single koi
angel in another. I did the usual check-em-out routine, opened the top
and touched my finger to the water, follow my finger across the glass,
that kind of stuff, and the koi was by far the brightest and boldest
of the lot. It was a little over the size of a quarter. 12 bucks!
Vance was talking to a man at the other end of the store, 2 rooms
away, and I called out, Vance I want to buy this angel but I am not
paying
12 "choose your expletive from Roy's extensive list" dollars for an
experiment! He called back "what experiment", and as I approached, he
introduced me to the guy he was talking with and the three of us went
over my plans. I got the fish for $6, because, "I have a guy who has
been promising to supply me for over a year, and all he ever brings in
is 4 or 5 every few months, this guy's not as serious as he says he
is. So that's why you get the fish for $6. Fine. And if it dies in my
experiment I will demand my six bucks back. He's been at the store for
3 weeks. He's been with me for 27 hours and 29 minutes so far, and I
just fed him some freeze dried brine shrimp that he is eagerly chasing
all over the tank. I'll decide on some arbitrary time frame, 2 weeks,
6 weeks, I don't know yet, before I feel safe adding a new group to
that tank. Meanwhile, If anyone has pointers to scientific articles on
freshwater angelfish diseases, please send them my way.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

I'm not sure what you're asking for as far as articles. A quick search
with Google Scholar turned up a couple of references that show that
angelfish viruses do exist. Iridoviruses and similar viruses are
transmitted through the water. It would be impossible to even guess how
long they're viable in a tank with no fish. Some of the viruses are
barely even characterized - the Sudthongkong article identifies a
previously unknown virus.

Rodger H.D., Kobs M.; Macartney A., Frerichs G.N., Systemic iridovirus
infection in freshwater angelfish, Pterophyllum scalare (Lichtenstein),
Journal of Fish Diseases, Volume 20, Number 1, 1997, pp. 69-72(4).
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...1997.d01-106.x

C. Sudthongkong, M. Miyata, T. Miyazaki, Viral DNA sequences of genes
encoding the ATPase and the major capsid protein of tropical iridovirus
isolates which are pathogenic to fishes in Japan, South China Sea and
Southeast Asian countries, Archives of Virology, Volume 147, Issue 11,
Oct 2002, Pages 2089 - 2109, DOI 10.1007/s00705-002-0883-6 , URL
http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00705-002-0883-6

Good luck with your new fish!

Yup. Stuff like this. Makes for good reading when I'm at my computer
with a pipefull of good tobacco and a cup of coffee at 5 in the
morning when no one wants to come out and play. A couple of reasonably
documented articles showed evidence that the "virus" has been
transferred by healthy "carriers". I don't believe I am going to find
a single answer that all agree on - but I can, already am, weighing
whatever I find. My gut feeling is that yes this is a serious concern,
but yes, it is also being used too often as an excuse for poor
husbandry,either in the home aquarium or at the suppliers end. I want
to be well informed before I plunk down a hundred bucks or more from a
mail order dealer.

Tell me how to find Google scholar. Please.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

I really like the koi angels, seen some pics on the web sight you gave me...
Tomorrow when I don't have three kids running the house... I will look some
stuff up for you and see what I can find, I am pretty good at sifting
through all the garbage on the net and finding stuff...I would like to find
out my self as I am thinking about buying some of the bigger angels at the
oddball place when we get done with setting up the tank..they are a bit on
the expensive side
Nik
good luck with the little guy/girl angel....I was thinking while reading
your post the last couple times you told us about getting them and posted
it, is when you started having trouble, jinxed

Maybe I'll name this one K*i.
-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Mister Gardener wrote:
Yeah, here I go again. I've been doing a lot of reading and talking to
a few people, and I'm ready to go again. I firmly believe that my
first bunch of young angels died because of water chemistry problems.
My fault. The second batch were quite weakened from having just days
earlier coming though a chloramine attack. Not all agree. Opinions
abound on the topic of angel health issues. Most popular seems to be
the Angelfish Virus, or Angel Aids theories. And the warning that once
the disease has struck a tank, it will remain in the water, or be
carried by other, healthy fish. One of the university studies I read
that was well researched found that angels sent to them, dead or
alive, who were believed to have the virus, were found to have
numerous illnesses, but nothing new, and no virus isolated. I'm not
saying that the virus is a hoax, I know it is real, but I am seriously
trying to find reliable information, scientific studies, something
more than "I had angelfish once and they all died". advice is to put a healthy angel fish into the tank
where I lost 12 angels in 8 weeks. I called Vance, my local fish guy,
and asked if he happened to have any angels. He rarely buys angels
from wholesalers, he only sells the odd group of youngsters that
individuals bring him after their first, and usually last, successful
home spawning. I found 3 silver angels in one tank, and a single koi
angel in another. I did the usual check-em-out routine, opened the top
and touched my finger to the water, follow my finger across the glass,
that kind of stuff, and the koi was by far the brightest and boldest
of the lot. It was a little over the size of a quarter. 12 bucks!
Vance was talking to a man at the other end of the store, 2 rooms
away, and I called out, Vance I want to buy this angel but I am not
paying
12 "choose your expletive from Roy's extensive list" dollars for an
experiment! He called back "what experiment", and as I approached, he
introduced me to the guy he was talking with and the three of us went
over my plans. I got the fish for $6, because, "I have a guy who has
been promising to supply me for over a year, and all he ever brings in
is 4 or 5 every few months, this guy's not as serious as he says he
is. So that's why you get the fish for $6. Fine. And if it dies in my
experiment I will demand my six bucks back. He's been at the store for
3 weeks. He's been with me for 27 hours and 29 minutes so far, and I
just fed him some freeze dried brine shrimp that he is eagerly chasing
all over the tank. I'll decide on some arbitrary time frame, 2 weeks,
6 weeks, I don't know yet, before I feel safe adding a new group to
that tank. Meanwhile, If anyone has pointers to scientific articles on
freshwater angelfish diseases, please send them my way.

-- Mister Gardener
-- Pull the WEED to email me

Hey there Mr. G. = )

One way to help
myself decide about the "once it's in your tank you can never keep
angels again"

Here's my take on this very thing.
The last time I had the Angel virus (aka Angel aids, and others) I had
a few adults that survived. The adults have a 20% chance of making it
if you can keep the secondary infections from killing them (usually fin
rot is the most common secondary infection).
Now, after 6 months I tried a couple young ones. The young are the most
susceptible to it and have a 0 chance of getting through it. After the
(up to) 2 week incubation period they showed the typical symptoms and
died.
My adults that had gone through it and survived were now immune to it.
I waited 8 months before adding new young ones and they were fine.
So my therory is that it's not in the tank for ever. 6 months isn't
long enough but 8 months is. This was without bleaching everything too.
Now...for the life of me I cannot remember if I had only Angels that
made it through it and no Bettas in there. I wish I would have written
things down.
So I cannot say whether or not a carrier fish (any fish other than an
Angel can carry it and infect angels and discus) will or will not
spread it after an 8 month wait.