First time w/ plants. PMDD, DIY CO2, and lots of questions!

On 31 Aug 2006 01:42:32 -0700, wrote:

I'm just back into this hobby after an 8 year absence. This is my
first time with a planted tank, so I've got a bunch of questions.

Hardwa
48" x 20" x 13" "55 Gallon" tank.
(2) Whisper 60 filters. One new, one rescued from my previous setup.
I don't really need two of these, do I?
(2) 40watt T12 "Warm White" bulbs.
(2) 32watt T8 "Full Spectrum" bulbs.

Fauna:
(15) adult feeder guppies. Haven't seen any juveniles, but given the
number of adults, I'm sure they're in there somewhere.
(5) adult platies. I estimate about a dozen juveniles no more than 2
weeks old.
(1) red crowntail betta. Supposed to be feeder guppy population
control, and since I haven't seen any juveniles, I'll assume he's doing
the job.
(2) female bettas.
(10) "Head and Tail Light" tetras. I wish these would school more,
and I'm surprised they aren't nipping at the betta.
(6) ghost shrimp. At least that's how many I counted at last feeding.
(2) "bamboo" shrimp. These are brown striped filter feeding shrimp,
about 2 inches in length.
(11) apple snails.
(MANY) Pond Snails.
(2) Ramshorn Snails. Given that I didn't intentionally add these to
the tank, they must have come in on a plant purchase. Given that I've
found more than one, I'll assume that I'll soon have MANY.
(1) Freshwater Clam. Dropped him in the tank, went to use the
restroom, when I came back he was gone. I'm assuming he's in the
substrate somewhere.

Substrate:
2" "Garden Soil". Mostly peat. Bottom.
.5"-1" Play sand. Middle.
1" 50% All Purpose Gravel, 50% Flourite. Top.

Flora:
(2) Amazon Swords.
(1) Small red sword. Small and pathetic looking at the LFS, but
reasonable looking once the dead leaves were removed. Using it as a
foreground plant for now, but that may change if it gets bigger.
(2) "Red Swords". LFS had no species tag, and I'm not sure if they're
Crypt. Wendetti, or actual Red Swords. After nearly a month, they're
not showing any substantial growth, but they've also not melted, so I'm
not at all sure what they are!
(2) Crypt. Wendetti. One standard, one tropica. Neither one has
melted yet...
(1) Crypt. Ciliata. The only other crypt I could find in searching
all the LFS. in a 1 hour driving radius.
(2) Giant Vals. All that the Petco had. Edges of the grass are a
little rough. Should I trim away the dying portions? What is the best
pruning method for Vals?
(4) Jungle Vals.
(2) Bunches of Dwarf Hairgrass
(2) Bunches of Rotala. R. Indica if the shop was telling the truth.
(2) Giant Onion plants. I couldn't find any more Giant Vals, so
these are filling in the background.
(1) Bunch of Green Hedge. Still healthy after 2 weeks. Is this or is
this not a true aquatic species?
(1) Bunch of "Aluminum Plant". Was two, but one died before I found
out that it's not a true aquatic. It's been relocated to the inside of
the Whisper 60, where its leaves can grow emersed. Looks pretty there,
and maybe if I'm lucky it'll survive..
(4) Bunches of Mondo Grass. I know, I know, not aquatic. Filling in
some space right now, and will be removed when I can get something else
to replace it.
(4) Bunches of Acorus grass. Same as the Mondo. May get the same
treatement as the Aluminum plant.
(1) Bunch of Microswords. More will replace the Mondo Grass when it
comes back at the local petco.
(2) Bunches of what I think are microswords. The pot had no species
tag, and prior to purchasing the previous bunch, I had thought they fit
the decription of microswords pretty nicely, but having gotten the real
thing, these only superficially resemble that plant, so now I'm not
sure what they are.
(1) Bunch of Baby's Tears. Well, the remnants of one. What survived
is growing steadily, but extremely slowly. Color is much nicer than
the pale green that they entered the tank with.
(2) Bunches of Red Ludwigia. The leaves are still red, and growing
well.
(2) Bunches of Money Wort. They shed thier lower leaves, but new
growth appears to be healthy.
(2) Bunches of Wisteria.
(Much) Anacharis. Appears to be dying. New growth is thick, dark,
and bushy, but most of the original growth has shed its leaves. A
quick search on this newsgroup reveals that it doesn't like Flourish
Excel, which suits me fine since my supply is nearly exhausted anyway.
Perhaps it will recover, but if it doesn't, I'll rip some out of the
pond, or perhaps do without.
(Not so much) Bladderwort. Started strong, but is now failing. Old
growth is gradually browning, newer growth is a much lighter green than
the deep green of the original plant. New growth also appears to be
much smaller than the original.
(Much) Cabomba. Old growth on the bottom 4" of the stems has died and
dropped off, but the new growth is much denser than the original
growth.
(MUCH) Hornwort. This one seems to be growing well. It's the only
plant I've had to prune thus far. The old growth is somewhat more
brown, but doesn't appear to be dead or rotting. Recent growth is a
dark and attractive green, with the most recent growth at the tips
being almost creamy in color.
(Little) Water sprite. Somehow, I managed to kill most of two
bunches. There are a few plantelets remaning, but they never seem to
get any bigger.
(2) Japanese "Moss Balls". The ones that are actually algae. Haven't
changed appreciably since I put them in there.
(5) Stems of Mermaid Weed. Hasn't yet developed those lovely red
fronds that I saw on the e-bay picture, but it does have the nice
serrated leaves. This plant would make me happier if the stems were
straighter. As twisted as they are, they're hard to arrange nicely.
(2) Bunches of a purple leaved plant that I suspect is another
terrestrial plant. I'll give it the same two weeks as the aluminum
plant had. If it starts to fade, into the filter it goes! So far,
it's still healthy.
(Some) Java moss. Isn't dead, might be growing, but if so, not rapidly
enough for me to notice.
(Some) Willow moss. Same as the java moss. Kinda brown looking, but
the tips are greenish. It doesn't seem to be decaying. Is the brown
portion dead?
(Some) Java fern. Dropped it in, mostly ignoring it. It's not like
you can kill this stuff anyway, right? It'd probably outlive the fish!
(Little) BlueGreen Algae. Lives on the filter output. Isn't
spreading, so I'm not worried.
(Little) Green spot algae. The apple snails don't appear to be
hindering it, but the pond snails are eating it well enough. Seems to
come off easily when I wipe it with my hands, or use the magnetic glass
cleaner.

Chemicals:
Flourish, Dosing as per the bottle reccomendations.
Flourish Iron, Dosing once per week.
Flourish Potassium, Dosing once per week.
Flourish Trace. Dosing once per week.
Flourish Excel: Dosing as per the bottle reccomendations, but it's
expensive and appears to be doing harm to the Anacharis, so this may
end when the bottle does.
Hagen Freshwater master test kit. (PH, Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia)
Haren KH kit.

CO2:
Nutrafin Natual System for Plants. Puts out maybe 8-10 bubbles per
minute. This isn't enough is it? The diffuser works nicely. I was
thinking of putting a T in the line and adding second DIY CO2 reactor
to the mix.

Water Chemistry:
Weekly 20% water change.
2006.08.11 - KH:3 PH:8 Ammonia:0ppm Nitrate:10ppm Nitrite:0.25ppm
2006.08.15 - KH:3 PH:7.2 Ammonia:0ppm Nitrate:5ppm Nitrite:0.25ppm
2006.08.28 - KH:3 PH:7 Ammonia:0ppm Nitrate:20ppm Nitrite:0.25ppm

The tank is 8 weeks old and appears to be cycled. (That, or the plants
are eating all the ammonia.)

As reccomended extensively here and on thekrib.com, I started out
planted heavily with stem plants. Had a slight spate of green water
for the first week, but addition of the Flourish products cleaned that
right up.

I've ordered the premixed PMDD and CSM+B mix from Greg Watson's site.
I'm thinking about switching to this method when my Flourish runs out,
if only for cost considerations.

General questions:
Growth is good, but not spectacular. I was hoping for better growth,
given the lighting and the CO2 addition.

I'm showing no ammonia, but still have detectable nitrates and
nitrites. Does this indicate that growth is not nitrogen limited? If
so, how do I identify the limiting factor? Should I have any nitrates
at all given the fish load and plants?

Do I need more light? If push comes to shove, I can probably fit one
more shop light over the tank.

Given the chemicals I'm using right now, am I dosing properly?

Given the current description of the plants, is it possible to infer
any sort of nutrient deficiency?

I'm not quite convinced that it's time to switch to bottle fed CO2. Do
I need to? If so, can someone out there reccomend a vendor/kit
combination?

I've read the PMDD papers on the Krib, and I think I understand how
they're to be used. I believe I'm supposed to dose till I achieve
0.1ppm Fe, correct? Can someone reccomend a reliable Fe test kit?

I've you've made it this far, sorry about the length of the post, and
thanks in advance for any advice you can give!


Didn't have time to read it all i'm afraid, but a couple of points -
I've got a 100 UK gall tank (about 77 UK galls H2O) and I use more
like 5 bubbles CO2 per second - I was using about twice that but then
read an article about not letting the spray-bar output from the filter
ripple the water surface too much (a little is good, like a heat-haze
on the road). I turned my spray-bar down a little and my CO2 use
dropped by nearly half !!
I also have a wet/dry filter which looses a little CO2.
Tap water here is a little under 8 and the pH in my tank is around 6.5

If you head over to http://www.barrreport.com take a look at Tom
Barr's EI (Estimative Index) dosing regime.
I started off with most of the plant products that Seachem make and it
was costing a fortune - I found using the dry ferts (Greg Watson etc)
resulted in even more growth - and dose as directed using EI. If you
subscribe, you can get hold of Nutri-Calc which will tell you what to
dose and how often.
For a 55 US gallon tank it suggests-
5/8 tsp (3.15g) KNO3
1/4 tsp (1.44g) K2SO4
5/32 (!) tsp (.89g) KH2PO4
1.5 tsp (8.15g) MgSO4
All the above 3 x per week (eg Mon, weds, fri)
3/16 tsp (.55g) CSM+B
3 x week
(eg tues,thurs, sat)
Sunday is your day off
This regime does require that you change 50% of your tank water per
week.
If you read the article it describes the reasoning behind it.
The beauty is that you don't need to use test kits which unless you
buy Lamotte or similar are not that accurate. In particlar, you'll
never get a meaningful result for chelated Fe, because if the plants
need it they'll use it quickly then there's none in the tank, so if
you have 0.1ppm Fe in the morning, you may have 0.0ppm Fe in the
afternoon - this is not an issue with EI.
From what I remember, the addition of peat will give false readings
when trying to estimate pH/CO2 ppm.
Not sure about the play sand - it may or may not contain unwanted
stuff - I don't know.
If you live in the UK, I can tell you where I got all my pressurised
CO2 stuff.

I've had spectacular results with EI, but I do have an algae issue.
I'm pretty certain this is not due to EI, which I have only been using
for 1 month.

Good Luck!!
Pete

"Pete" wrote in message
...


Didn't have time to read it all i'm afraid, but a couple of points -
I've got a 100 UK gall tank (about 77 UK galls H2O) and I use more
like 5 bubbles CO2 per second - I was using about twice that but then
read an article about not letting the spray-bar output from the filter
ripple the water surface too much (a little is good, like a heat-haze
on the road). I turned my spray-bar down a little and my CO2 use
dropped by nearly half !!
I also have a wet/dry filter which looses a little CO2.
Tap water here is a little under 8 and the pH in my tank is around 6.5

If you head over to http://www.barrreport.com take a look at Tom
Barr's EI (Estimative Index) dosing regime.
I started off with most of the plant products that Seachem make and it
was costing a fortune - I found using the dry ferts (Greg Watson etc)
resulted in even more growth - and dose as directed using EI. If you
subscribe, you can get hold of Nutri-Calc which will tell you what to
dose and how often.
For a 55 US gallon tank it suggests-
5/8 tsp (3.15g) KNO3
1/4 tsp (1.44g) K2SO4
5/32 (!) tsp (.89g) KH2PO4
1.5 tsp (8.15g) MgSO4
All the above 3 x per week (eg Mon, weds, fri)
3/16 tsp (.55g) CSM+B
3 x week
(eg tues,thurs, sat)
Sunday is your day off
This regime does require that you change 50% of your tank water per
week.
If you read the article it describes the reasoning behind it.
The beauty is that you don't need to use test kits which unless you
buy Lamotte or similar are not that accurate. In particlar, you'll
never get a meaningful result for chelated Fe, because if the plants
need it they'll use it quickly then there's none in the tank, so if
you have 0.1ppm Fe in the morning, you may have 0.0ppm Fe in the
afternoon - this is not an issue with EI.
From what I remember, the addition of peat will give false readings
when trying to estimate pH/CO2 ppm.
Not sure about the play sand - it may or may not contain unwanted
stuff - I don't know.
If you live in the UK, I can tell you where I got all my pressurised
CO2 stuff.

I've had spectacular results with EI, but I do have an algae issue.
I'm pretty certain this is not due to EI, which I have only been using
for 1 month.

Good Luck!!
Pete

Hi Pete from another Pete :-)

I'm in the UK, and I'm starting to think about co2 for my 400ltr, so fire
away with the links.

Was it mail order ?

Peter

Hi Pete from another Pete :-)

I'm in the UK, and I'm starting to think about co2 for my 400ltr, so fire
away with the links.

Was it mail order ?

Peter

Hi Pete

I got my CO2 from BOC - they have outlets all over the UK.
I got a cylider that's about 36" tall, weighs 22Kg and contains 6.5Kg
CO2 - cost of rental for the cylinder is a little over £5/month or £50
per year.
Cost of a refill is about £12 and there's a £10 admin charge.
I guess a full cylinder will last me at least 1 year.
They will deliver, but there's extra cost.
Alternatively try a local soft drinks or beer supplier.

I got the regulator, solenoid, needle valve and reactor from UDA
http://www.uda.co.uk/
0845-1665634
There's a guy there by the name of Andrew who is knowledgable, helpful
and can talk for Britain.
I went for the Aqua Medic reactor 500 - but have found in my 360 litre
that this struggles, so I would suggest either an AM500 + AM500
extension (or possibly 2x AM500M - reactor with powerhead) or the
AM1000. There are many that suggest the CO2 mist method is the 'best'
way - I haven't got it so can't comment.
I went for the AM500M as a second reactor, but then realised that
there are costs involved with adding a 2nd reactor, namely that you'll
need a manifold and 2 more needle valves. If you speak with Andrew
he'll say that they sell plastic taps and T junctions that they use
for CO2 splitting into their tanks. I got these yesterday, cost about
£10. They're VERY fiddly to set up - I'm not happy with them and will
get some needle Valves and a metal T junction - another £50 !!
http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/ sells the needle valves, but they're
out of stock at the time of writing.
Aqua Essentials also sell all of the chemicals needed for PMDD or EI
(look for Dry Fertilizers link on the left)

I came across what appeared to be a very cheap pH controller from
http://www.monitors-direct.co.uk/
I had my doubts about a controller and probe for under £70,but I've
had it for a month now and so far I have been impressed.
The displayed value correlates with the results from my Hagen pH test,
and when I check the calibration weekly, it's only drifted by about
0.01pH
I don't know how long the gel probe will last - I'd guess at a year or
so, but replacements are widely availabe and monitors-direct sell
probes for about £13
To get the controller for under £70, you have to register at
http://www.reefcove.co.uk/forums/
Go to the Monitors-Direct forum there - the post is at the top.

Hope this helps,
Good luck
Pete

Snipped and saved for reference :-)

I came across what appeared to be a very cheap pH controller from
http://www.monitors-direct.co.uk/
I had my doubts about a controller and probe for under £70,but I've
had it for a month now and so far I have been impressed.
The displayed value correlates with the results from my Hagen pH test,
and when I check the calibration weekly, it's only drifted by about
0.01pH
I don't know how long the gel probe will last - I'd guess at a year or
so, but replacements are widely availabe and monitors-direct sell
probes for about £13
To get the controller for under £70, you have to register at
http://www.reefcove.co.uk/forums/
Go to the Monitors-Direct forum there - the post is at the top.

Hope this helps,
Good luck
Pete


Thanks a lot Pete :-)
P.S.
What lighting are you using ?

Peter

On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:13:39 +0100, "2pods" wrote:

Snipped and saved for reference :-)

I came across what appeared to be a very cheap pH controller from
http://www.monitors-direct.co.uk/
I had my doubts about a controller and probe for under £70,but I've
had it for a month now and so far I have been impressed.
The displayed value correlates with the results from my Hagen pH test,
and when I check the calibration weekly, it's only drifted by about
0.01pH
I don't know how long the gel probe will last - I'd guess at a year or
so, but replacements are widely availabe and monitors-direct sell
probes for about £13
To get the controller for under £70, you have to register at
http://www.reefcove.co.uk/forums/
Go to the Monitors-Direct forum there - the post is at the top.

Hope this helps,
Good luck
Pete


Thanks a lot Pete :-)
P.S.
What lighting are you using ?

Peter

I done a diy job on my existing wood hood ( I have a sea-bray tank)
I cut 2 square holes and got some 2nd hand wall washers into which I
fitted 150W metal halide lamps 6,500k.
With 3 x 36W triton flouros it's probably a bit ott, but it looks
great and the plants are doing very well.

Pete

Snippage
What lighting are you using ?

Peter

I done a diy job on my existing wood hood ( I have a sea-bray tank)
I cut 2 square holes and got some 2nd hand wall washers into which I
fitted 150W metal halide lamps 6,500k.
With 3 x 36W triton flouros it's probably a bit ott, but it looks
great and the plants are doing very well.

Pete

Wow !
I'm well underpowered with just the stock Juwel Rio 400 2x36w T8's with
reflectors :-(

Peter

On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 13:09:49 +0100, "2pods" wrote:

Snippage
What lighting are you using ?

Peter

I done a diy job on my existing wood hood ( I have a sea-bray tank)
I cut 2 square holes and got some 2nd hand wall washers into which I
fitted 150W metal halide lamps 6,500k.
With 3 x 36W triton flouros it's probably a bit ott, but it looks
great and the plants are doing very well.

Pete

Wow !
I'm well underpowered with just the stock Juwel Rio 400 2x36w T8's with
reflectors :-(

Peter

Not necessarily, depends on what you want to grow.
Take a look at http://www.barrreport.com/forums/index.php
there's pleanty of articles about hi-light, low-light and lots in
between.

Pete

"2pods" wrote in message
...
Snippage
What lighting are you using ?

Peter

I done a diy job on my existing wood hood ( I have a sea-bray tank)
I cut 2 square holes and got some 2nd hand wall washers into which I
fitted 150W metal halide lamps 6,500k.
With 3 x 36W triton flouros it's probably a bit ott, but it looks
great and the plants are doing very well.

Pete

Wow !
I'm well underpowered with just the stock Juwel Rio 400 2x36w T8's with
reflectors :-(

Peter
Hi Peter - I have the same setup as you - I purchased another set of
lights - now have 2x2x36w T8's - it makes a tremendous difference.

Regards - Dave