Denitrators

I will write this again for the umpteen time. This process is called
DENITRIFICATION. It is an enzymatic process that converts NO3- into H2O
and N2 (O2 is NOT produced).

And, once more, H2O is NOT produced. It is merely a carrier.

If water is not produced than water is a carrier for what?

What do you think happens to the oxygen that is "removed" by the
bacteria?

That's its food.


This is a good one. You think oxygen is food for the ANAEROBIC bacteria.
Hmmm...





George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Very good! When did I write water molecules were broken up?

You stated that hydrogen combines with oxygen from the NO3 to produce H2O.
When asked where the hydrogen comes from, you stated that the "enzymes"
produce it from water.

No, what I wrote was that the H+ come from general acids located within the
enzymes active site. Do you know what a general acid is in this context?
If not I will explain it to you.

The only way they could do that is to strip oxygten atoms off the water
molecules.

Wrong. The H+ source comes from protonated amino acid residues (general
acids) located in the enzymes active site.

This might help: H+ doesn't really exist in an aqueous environment, it
exists as H3O+. This is the protonated form of water.
There are other things (molecules) in nature that can be protonated, not
just water.

For example some amino acids have basic amine side chains that will be
protonated at any given time. They can and do serve as the source of H+ in
the active site of an enzyme.

I don't expect everyone to understand this stuff, but ...


Still wrong. Water is produced here.

Not possible.

Uggg.




George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

If Patterson believes that oxygen is removed by the enzyme and only N2 is
produced. What happens to the oxygen? Where do you/he think it goes?
Do you think it stays in the enzyme?

Not enzyme. Bacteria. Yes, that's exactly what happens. The oxygen is
consumed by the bacteria.

This might help your confusion:
When you state that oxygen is consumed by the bacteria in the
denitrification process where does it end up? where does it go? what form
does it take?

If your answer is not H2O you need to do more reading.

And I guess you would laugh if we told you that fish drink
water.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Stoutman wrote on 9/16/2006 8:24 PM:
What do you think happens to the oxygen that is "removed" by the
bacteria?
That's its food.


This is a good one. You think oxygen is food for the ANAEROBIC bacteria.
Hmmm...





George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

If you had a system with aerobic bacteria in a filter
medium, with good water movement growing well with lot's
of oxygen, and lot's of nitrates, and then you were to
seal it off from fresh oxygen and there was plenty of food
there for the bacteria to continue growing, how long do
you think it would take for the nitrates to reach 0 nitrates?

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Stoutman wrote on 9/16/2006 8:19 PM:
If Patterson believes that oxygen is removed by the enzyme and only N2 is
produced. What happens to the oxygen? Where do you/he think it goes?
Do you think it stays in the enzyme?
Not enzyme. Bacteria. Yes, that's exactly what happens. The oxygen is
consumed by the bacteria.

First:
These denitrifying bacteria are anaerobic. They thrive in LOW oxygen
conditions. Anoxic conditions are required for their survival. This means
they do not need nor do they consume oxygen to survive. Why do you insist
that anaerobic bacteria involved in denitrification consume oxygen? Oxygen
is a TOXIN for most anaerobic bacteria. They do not produce nor consume
oxygen. Anaerobic bacteria can not even grow in the presence of oxygen.

Second:
Oxygen is NOT produced. The end result biproducts of nitrate metabolism by
denitrifying bacteria are N2 and H2O.

I am not guessing here.

nitrogen cycle:
http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/a...ogencycle.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denitrification

Though I would not call it food, any more than I would
call oxygen food for us, but the oxygen has to be taken in
since it's not after the nitrogen except for growth.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Wayne Sallee wrote on 9/16/2006 11:38 PM:
And I guess you would laugh if we told you that fish drink water.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Stoutman wrote on 9/16/2006 8:24 PM:
What do you think happens to the oxygen that is "removed" by the
bacteria?
That's its food.


This is a good one. You think oxygen is food for the ANAEROBIC
bacteria. Hmmm...





George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights
belong to
your slightly older self.

Though I would not call it food, any more than I would
call oxygen food for us, but the oxygen has to be taken in since it's not
after the nitrogen except for growth.

What do you mean by "taken in"? What happens to the oxygen?

What part of : 2NO3 +12H+ ---enzymatic---- N2 + 6H2O do you not
understand? I gave provided two web site literature sources for you to
read that support MY claims. Do you need more?

I see 6 oxygens on the left and 6 oxygens expelled on the right. How are
they "taken in"? I can't wait for your answer to this.









Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Wayne Sallee wrote on 9/16/2006 11:38 PM:
And I guess you would laugh if we told you that fish drink water.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Stoutman wrote on 9/16/2006 8:24 PM:
What do you think happens to the oxygen that is "removed" by the
bacteria?
That's its food.


This is a good one. You think oxygen is food for the ANAEROBIC
bacteria. Hmmm...





George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong
to
your slightly older self.

Though I would not call it food, any more than I would call oxygen food
for us, but the oxygen has to be taken in since it's not after the
nitrogen except for growth.

One more thing since you bring up human cellular respiration. We breath in
oxygen, do we "take it in"? Or do we use it for cellular repiration and
expell the oxygen in the form of CO2?

us (aerobic respiration)
C6H12O6 + 6O2 ---- 6CO2 + 6H2O (+ ENERGY (ATP)) -----NO
OXYGEN "taken in"

anaerobic denitrifying bacteria:

2NO3- + 12H+ ------- N2 + 6H2O + (ENERGY) -------NO
OXYGEN "taken in"





Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Wayne Sallee wrote on 9/16/2006 11:38 PM:
And I guess you would laugh if we told you that fish drink water.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Stoutman wrote on 9/16/2006 8:24 PM:
What do you think happens to the oxygen that is "removed" by the
bacteria?
That's its food.


This is a good one. You think oxygen is food for the ANAEROBIC
bacteria. Hmmm...





George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong
to
your slightly older self.

"Stoutman" [email protected] wrote in message m...
You were questioning the reason to change water
based on nitrates...

I am not questioning anything, I am answering Adam's (the OP) question.
See above in the thread.

You clearly point to relation between high nitrates and need for water change:

"Contrary to popular marine aquarium lore, you DO NOT NEED to do partial
water changes. My nitrites and nitrates are UNDETECTABLE using store
bought LFS test kits."

and he

"If something causes your nitrites and nitrates to be very low than
why would you NEED to do a water change? Just for fun?"

Nitrates is not the reason for a water change.

You know, there are much more different ions there
beside NO3-...

Yes, I am aware.

Then you are probably aware also, that 80% of their
levels you cannot measure at home acuratelly.

80% of what levels? Can you be more specific? Doesn't how
accurate you need to be depend on the ion you are referring to?

Out of the all ionic compounds in the sea waters only
small parts can be measured with aquarium test kits.
You can test carbonate hardness/alkalinity, calcium,
magnesium, nitrates, phosphates, couple of others with
questionable reliablity and that is it.
The rest of ions are just one big question mark.
You do not know how much are taken out and built into
corals and other invertebrate bodies, you do not know
how much is left there available in the water.

With partial water change you replenish
ions used up by growing animals/plants in your tank.

I add trace elements (Kent Marine Essential Elements) on a monthly basis.

Each element is used up in a different speed, but you dump
all of them on a monthly basis regardless if you need it or not.

How do you replenish your trace elements? Partial water change? When you
do your partial water change you are removing some percentage of water
(15-20%?) and adding artificial sea salt (usually contains trace elements).
How do you know your tank needs it (trace elements)?

When I am replacing partial water in my tank I am removing
some water with bad ionic proportion and replace is with
known to be good ionic composition water. Overall effect
is that the resulting mixture has ionic combination more
similar to natural sea water than an old tank water had...

That will lead over time to chemical imbalance and your tank
water will be far, far away from the content of natural sea water
compared to the water mixed from the fresh salt mix.

You are FAR MORE likely to cause a chemical imbalance by replacing a
percentage (15-20%?) of your aquarium water with home made sea water
than you are by doing no water change.

Can you present some reasoning behind this odd statement ?

You also remove organic byproducts your skimmer left behind.

Such as?

All these which make your water smell and look yellow.
Corals, other invertebrates, fish and plants constantly
release many substances to the water which accumulate
in the closed system like an aquarium.

My skimmer runs 24hrs a day. The organic compounds it doesn't remove on the
first pass will more than likely be removed on the second, third, fourth or
fifth, etc. pass.

How about these which do not stick to the foam at all ?
No matter how many times water will pass through the
skimmer...

You are not able to measure them or detect them in home situation...

Agreed. Therefore, I have NO reason to question my skimmers effectiveness.
I can only go by the health/appearance of my tank mates. They are doing
fine. All is well. My water is not yellow and it does not smell.

I would like to know more about your tank.
Its volume, quantinty and size of fish, other living
critters and plants/algae, amount of live rock, lights etc.
Would you be so nice and tell us more about your tank ?

And how can you tell your water is not yellow?
Have you poured it to a white plastic bucket and
compared its color to R/O water in a similar bucket?
I do not know a skimmer which removes all organics in 100%.

Changing water refreshes the water and brings it back
to its original ionic combination...

The only way YOU would "bring it back to its original" condition is if you
changed 100% of your water. Is this what you are doing? If this is what
you are doing you are doing more harm than good.

No, I am not replacing 100% of water in my reef tank,
I do it in my grow up tanks for my baby maroon clowns.
And of course it is true - it would be 100% in original
condition only if replaced in 100%, but if you replace
only 20-30% than the water is more similar to the original
ionic composition than the old water before the change.
Do you agree ?

Would you be fine if your house was perfectly sealed
from the outside air and you just reduce amount of
CO2 and add oxygen on regular basis but would not
exchange air for years?

Another straw man.

How do you think your house would smell ? :-))

I do not have microorganisms that eat and decompose
my excrements, my aquarium inhabitants do.

I would like to duplicate this perfect bilogical balance
you have in your tank. It sounds almost magical...
Can't wait to learn more about your tank and see how
you managed to get is so perfectly ballanced it does
not require water change.
In my opinion it would require very high biodiversity
with right amount of fish, invertebrates, plants/algae
working in perfect balance without algae taking over
the tank or fish pooping too much plants can process...
Such a balanced micro-ecosystem would be a dream of
all aquarists. So please do not delay and tell us
about your amazing tank.