4 foot high tank

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"swarvegorilla" wrote in message
...
Yes, yes I do.
contact time is very important.
water blasting thru media too fast will not allow
bacteria sufficent time to eat nutrients in the water.
[...]
but biological filtration occurs best slowly
delicate colonys building on top of each other
forming matts of brown crap
charming I know
should visit a sewrage farm some time
will be quite the bacteria eduaction for you!

Sewage farm and aquarium filter have big difference:
Sewage is pass through, water passes one time only.
Aquarium filter works in closed circuit loop...

And this single difference is very important!

When you have single pass filter - then yes, you
want long contact time for the bacteria to use up
all the nutrients from water and leave water pure.
When you have closed circuit loop, like in the aquarium,
it does not matter really if you put 10 gph through
the filter or 100 gph the if not all nutrients
will be removed in the first pass, than you have
10 more chances - the same water passes through the
filter several times per hour!

I would rather say contact time is NOT important.
What is important is that bacteria will have enough
oxygen in the whole volume of the filter media...
When you restrict flow in quest to get long contact
time you can make the last part of the filter
lack oxygen and bacteria will not work since
nitrification requires a lot of oxygen to consume.
On the outlet of the filter with low flow bacteria
will starve. We do not want this to happen.
We would rather give the filter maximum flow it
can handle to make sure bacteria in its whole volume
of its filtration media is well fed and oxygenated.

each filter is matched to flowrate
and no, every sewrage farm is not an open system!
infact most are closed too!
you have missed the point friend and it's too late and my chicky is too hot
too explain now.
later tho

Yes well your speech proves you to be a rude w@nker!
get over the experience thing. I have mates who have had reef setups for
decades. I have fellow specialist shops I can go chat with.
You are probably good at selling certain setups
sounds great
I keep fish alive and healthy and I do it with whatever I can.
experience is not always as important as research and asking questions
Who cares how I speak anyway
We are fish geeks hey
not royalty
get over yourself and educate me if you wanna try be all high and mighty!!!


"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
link.net...
Your speech proves your lack of experience with reef tanks.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



swarvegorilla wrote on 10/15/2006 1:09 AM:
?
dude have you ever heard of a 90 degree elbow?
I think a lot of the industry would be shocked to hear that air powered
sponge filters are no good for marine.
For fish only they are cheap, easy and last for yonks. For reef where
water movement is more important and maybe you'd like less filter
bacteria and more live rock life to try drop nitrates.
But that only works with low stocking levels.
With a tall tank despite usual wisdom saying that it should be a very
light stocking due to surface area, I would prob overstock it a bit.
Tall tanks need more fish to look good. It means more water changes and
more feeding though.
A good airpump can run a few filters and the skimmer.
Salt creep is pretty easy to take care of, good lids and a wipe or 2
the point I was trying to make is that
A marine tank can be set up on any budget.
With a powerhead or 2 to give the water movement needed there is no
reason sponge air filters cannot be used.
Yes maybe you may have to consider filter placement to cut down on salt
creep but it's the same nitrate cycle mate.
A powerhead pumping water thru a pipe into a bucket of small coral chunks
and draining out the bottem into the tank makes an ok filter.
Keep in mind that with good liverock and powerhead placement, plus the
advantage of strong lights the tank will have other natural forms of
bio-filtration occuring.
Bio accumulation of nutrients into algae,bacteria mulm or in O2 zeron
environs into N2 gas.
What is more important than having the latest gear is having good
husbandry practises with the tools at hand.
Never believe the hype I say, good food, nice clean warm water and
regular water changes.
If you are going to shoot for the moon, buy your liverock and coral foods
and use them. Have a local fish geek design your filter and lights setup.
And get on good terms with a good local lfs so you can cherry pick the
best liverock out of a big new shipment for your initial stocking of the
tank with rock.





"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
link.net...
Sponge filtering is not a possibility that you want to use with a salt
water aquarium, much less a reef tank. They do however have a lot of
benefits for breeder tanks in fresh water, and some with salt water fry
tanks, but such a salt water tank would have lots of salt creep, and any
electrical cords or anything else electrical would be wet with salt
water.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Cindy wrote on 10/13/2006 7:18 PM:
* Pszemol wrote, On 10/13/2006 9:36 AM:
"swarvegorilla" wrote in message
...
no not show tanks, selling tanks
I am sure the original poster was thinking about a show tank,
not quarantine, not grow-up tank, not wholeseller tank...
Show tanks are run with different equipment, so let's not mix this.
The original poster isn't the only one reading, and I for one like to
learn ALL the possibilities.

Cindy

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"swarvegorilla" wrote in message
...
Even the barrier reef is mainly algae species, coral is a distant second.

It is very hard to compare real ocean to our fish tanks...

The only point I wanted to make is that with the proper dedication and
research there is no reason a coupla cycled air sponge filters could not
support a nice tank of damsels, pair clowns, dottyback, maybe a bicolour
angel and lawn mower blenny.

I would always like such statements backed up with a nice pictures
showing beautiful tanks with no problematic algae running this way :-)
How are you progressing in making such photos of your tanks ?

What are the levels of nitrates and phosphates in your tanks ?
What is your maintenance schedule ? How often do you play with
the tanks ? How big is the tank from the above mentioned example ?

If it's going to be a full reef then you need to get serious on your
equipment level.
chillers and lights need to be bought
suppliments to promote coral growth over algae
all sorts crap.

What supplements would you add ?
How do they work in supporting corals to outcompete algae in our tanks?

'Display' is a sense of mind. Yes maybe a tank in a hotel is going to
have to be 'a slice of the ocean' with no visable filters and exotic
corals.
but a tank in the living room, stocked with conscienscously chosen fish
that do well in captivity, and a bit of maintenence is also what I call a
display.

What I say by "display" is the tank which has PRIMARY concern: aesthetics.
It simply has to LOOK nice.
The different story is for example in breeding tanks or grow up tanks...
In such tanks you do not care much about how do they look - what you
care for is that you can cram a lot of fish in smalles possible tank
without sacrificing their health and well being... So if you have to
add big and ugly filter in the center of the tank - do it... Again, you
do not care about aesthetics in a grow-up tanks. It can be ugly but
it has to work. Opposite to your show tank in living room - it cannot be
an eyesore with visible plumbing or a lot of hair algae covering rocks.

That said bring on the requirements as you see them for a 'display' tank
Don't forget the UVC and kalk dosers.


UVC is a no-no for a reef tank.
You want to encourage the plankton growth in the water
instead of killing it with UVC lamp...
You filter feeding animals like clams, scallops, feather dusters,
sponges will feed on unicellular algae in the water preventing the
green water problems you might want to fight withUVC lamp in FO tanks.


Ok lemme get back to this sorry
but one other little advantage is bubble filtration is little critter
friendly
much less damaging than impellors and the like.
I'd also like to just say that as a combo filter they work well
but ya sleep n stuff

"swarvegorilla" wrote in message u...
"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"swarvegorilla" wrote in message
...
Even the barrier reef is mainly algae species, coral is a distant second.

It is very hard to compare real ocean to our fish tanks...

The only point I wanted to make is that with the proper dedication and
research there is no reason a coupla cycled air sponge filters could not
support a nice tank of damsels, pair clowns, dottyback, maybe a bicolour
angel and lawn mower blenny.

I would always like such statements backed up with a nice pictures
showing beautiful tanks with no problematic algae running this way :-)
How are you progressing in making such photos of your tanks ?

What are the levels of nitrates and phosphates in your tanks ?
What is your maintenance schedule ? How often do you play with
the tanks ? How big is the tank from the above mentioned example ?

If it's going to be a full reef then you need to get serious on your
equipment level.
chillers and lights need to be bought
suppliments to promote coral growth over algae
all sorts crap.

What supplements would you add ?
How do they work in supporting corals to outcompete algae in our tanks?

'Display' is a sense of mind. Yes maybe a tank in a hotel is going to
have to be 'a slice of the ocean' with no visable filters and exotic
corals.
but a tank in the living room, stocked with conscienscously chosen fish
that do well in captivity, and a bit of maintenence is also what I call a
display.

What I say by "display" is the tank which has PRIMARY concern: aesthetics.
It simply has to LOOK nice.
The different story is for example in breeding tanks or grow up tanks...
In such tanks you do not care much about how do they look - what you
care for is that you can cram a lot of fish in smalles possible tank
without sacrificing their health and well being... So if you have to
add big and ugly filter in the center of the tank - do it... Again, you
do not care about aesthetics in a grow-up tanks. It can be ugly but
it has to work. Opposite to your show tank in living room - it cannot be
an eyesore with visible plumbing or a lot of hair algae covering rocks.

That said bring on the requirements as you see them for a 'display' tank
Don't forget the UVC and kalk dosers.


UVC is a no-no for a reef tank.
You want to encourage the plankton growth in the water
instead of killing it with UVC lamp...
You filter feeding animals like clams, scallops, feather dusters,
sponges will feed on unicellular algae in the water preventing the
green water problems you might want to fight withUVC lamp in FO tanks.


Ok lemme get back to this sorry
but one other little advantage is bubble filtration is little critter
friendly
much less damaging than impellors and the like.
I'd also like to just say that as a combo filter they work well
but ya sleep n stuff

Are you going to answer my specific questions included in the previous posting?

"swarvegorilla" wrote in message u...
each filter is matched to flowrate

How do you measure flowrate for an air driven filter ?
How do you check if you reached the "matching" flow ?
Where do you get the optimum flowrate for a given
air-driven sponge filter ?
Is it something written on the box the sponge comes in ?

and no, every sewrage farm is not an open system!
infact most are closed too!

Closed in what sense ?
Do you dump raw sewage into the same tank
cleaned water is taken out from the system ?
Interesting...

you have missed the point friend
and it's too late and my chicky is too hot
too explain now.
later tho


There is always another day - sleep well
and please explain this when you find some time.

That would be a killer tank to look and marvel at, but an even bigger killer
to set up and maintain.

I set one up for a client end of last year, which was 6'L X 2.5'W X 4'H
using 19mm tempered glass for safety reasons. The aquascaping required me to
be in the tank ... ok so I'm only 5'6" but it was a lot quicker with me
inside and my mate handing me the LR from the outside. Lighting is 3 pieces
of 400W XM 15K and
16 pieces of 96W PC actinics and yet its not as bright as I'd like it to be
way at the bottom.

So the livestock had to be carefully placed on the rock structure, with
mostly shrooms at the bottom. Strictly no SPS corals, the rest were mostly
softies and LPS, lots of shrimps, and other inverts like cukes and snails.

Maintenance is a big PITA on this tank, especially with algae on the tank
walls - you can use magnets to scrape off some of it, but the persistent
ones need a blade. And finding a blade with a 3-4' long handle strong enuff
not to bend was tough.

Sure it looks good, but personally, I'd never get this kinda tank for myself

wrote in message
ps.com...
Hi there

I'm looking to get back into a marine tank. It's been a while since I
have had one. the last was a bio ball setup which i believe has gone
out of fashion to be replaced by live rocks etc. anyway my question
is.. I'm looking at this tank

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Unique-Custom...arium-full-set
up_W0QQitemZ150044026743QQihZ005QQcategoryZ20755QQ rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and just wondering if higher rather than wider tanks are still harder
to maintain with the new techniques of fish and invertebrates keeping.

Cheers thanks for taking the tinme to repspond

swarvegorilla wrote on 10/17/2006 9:45 AM:


Ok lemme get back to this sorry
but one other little advantage is bubble filtration is little critter
friendly
much less damaging than impellors and the like.
I'd also like to just say that as a combo filter they work well
but ya sleep n stuff



That's one of the many reasons that I like to use one big
pump to do all the water movement, instead of power heads.

But what ever water movement method you use, with good
water movement around the rock and corals, that stuff gets
filtered out quite well.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"swarvegorilla" wrote in message
...
Even the barrier reef is mainly algae species, coral is a distant second.

It is very hard to compare real ocean to our fish tanks...
mate I work with simulations not replications.
I know how the rules are different.
i.e. size = dilution


The only point I wanted to make is that with the proper dedication and
research there is no reason a coupla cycled air sponge filters could not
support a nice tank of damsels, pair clowns, dottyback, maybe a bicolour
angel and lawn mower blenny.

I would always like such statements backed up with a nice pictures
showing beautiful tanks with no problematic algae running this way :-)
How are you progressing in making such photos of your tanks ?


Not at all
My sponge filtered tanks are chockers with fish.
I'm hardly about to go riding around taking photo's of peoples tanks to
satify one crazy usenet freek with a million questions and demands.
no disrespect intended as I'm one as well but I'm a busy man eh.


What are the levels of nitrates and phosphates in your tanks ?
WTF would you care?
Come on dude


What is your maintenance schedule ?

I water change 25% EVERY sunday
I live beside the unspoilt pacific yea and pump it into big plastic drums on
a truck at a boat ramp


How often do you play with
the tanks ?

every day or once a month
depends on the tank and it's need for sparkle fresh appearance



How big is the tank from the above mentioned example ?

get a life mate
if you really need to know so much about the tanks come read the bloody
journals for them yourself hey



If it's going to be a full reef then you need to get serious on your
equipment level.
chillers and lights need to be bought
suppliments to promote coral growth over algae
all sorts crap.

What supplements would you add ?
How do they work in supporting corals to outcompete algae in our tanks?

They come in bottles and are called things like 'live rock food', I also mix
my own kalk and culture greenwater for me filter feeders when I can be
bothered.
Remember I work in the industry mate, little widdle fings in your tank like
coraline algae and stuff suck minerals outta the water to build body
structures yea? Once they are gone the algae that doesn't need them surges
ahead.
Do your own bloody research. I do not at all see why ya need the details
when you supposedly know them dude?
If I need a suppliment I ask 4 different reps their opinion, then I ask me
fellow lfs brotherhood, then I check my books, then the net and if all else
fails or I feel no$taljik usenet
but usually a handful of epsomsalt or calc carb powder can do any job a
fancy bottle can do
yes I can do the science to a .ppm but when you face a problem the 2nd time,
you already have an idea of the solution.



'Display' is a sense of mind. Yes maybe a tank in a hotel is going to
have to be 'a slice of the ocean' with no visable filters and exotic
corals.
but a tank in the living room, stocked with conscienscously chosen fish
that do well in captivity, and a bit of maintenence is also what I call a
display.

What I say by "display" is the tank which has PRIMARY concern: aesthetics.
It simply has to LOOK nice.

All my tanks look nice
even my feeder fish tanks are decorated
my goldfish have castles and stuff
live plants and stacked rocks
getting nicer everyday but looking good hey, sponge filter or no!


The different story is for example in breeding tanks or grow up tanks...
In such tanks you do not care much about how do they look - what you
care for is that you can cram a lot of fish in smalles possible tank
without sacrificing their health and well being... So if you have to
add big and ugly filter in the center of the tank - do it... Again, you
do not care about aesthetics in a grow-up tanks. It can be ugly but
it has to work. Opposite to your show tank in living room - it cannot be
an eyesore with visible plumbing or a lot of hair algae covering rocks.

That said bring on the requirements as you see them for a 'display' tank
Don't forget the UVC and kalk dosers.


UVC is a no-no for a reef tank.
You want to encourage the plankton growth in the water
instead of killing it with UVC lamp...
You filter feeding animals like clams, scallops, feather dusters,
sponges will feed on unicellular algae in the water preventing the
green water problems you might want to fight withUVC lamp in FO tanks.


Was kiddin mate
look fair enuf you are curious
and thats cool but really I ain't about to go to huge trouble to 'prove'
myself to you
tomorrow I drain a cichlid tank and begin to setup another 6x2x2 foot marine
display.
It will take me a while as kinda moved it ahead a few weeks.
still start as early as ya can!
I will take a lot of pictures, but be patient mate.
Things move slow with these things.
If you are curious I will be adding some very boring liverock, substrate,
water,and filter media from an established marine tank.
My lights won't be ready for a bit but planning on hanging a coupla MH from
the roof.
The tank is in a new position so going to be interesting to see the chiller
power I am going to need to keep this girl happy.
Aussie summers hey, already getting record highs for Oct.
For filtration I am going with an Otto 450G cannister filter and a few
powerheads for water movement.
I will upgrade as needed.
Yep no sponge air filter!
But this tank will be surrounded by others with them!

With water changes anyone can keep stuff alive.... although big lights are
certainly going to help.


So sponge filters- ugly, cheap, basic and give ya the additional challenge
of solving alt creep problems, frequent cleanings in aquarium water and
hiding them behind something :-)
so what I say, they work if you can get past that
Now if you still feel the need to educate me, go ahead.
It's what I'm here for, but realise I am not your average n00b.
and I have dickheads feeling me out all day at work trying to figure out if
I know my ****
so it may be hard for me to be polite when it happens from a stranger on the
net.
brown rice 'n all eh

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"swarvegorilla" wrote in message
u...
each filter is matched to flowrate

How do you measure flowrate for an air driven filter ?

Most are dynamic environs which change as cells clog and flow diverts.
I imagine it would be quite the equation.
Perhaps contact a filter company pr dude?


How do you check if you reached the "matching" flow ?

By dosing with ammonia and measuring time taken to convert it all to nitrate

Where do you get the optimum flowrate for a given
air-driven sponge filter ?

a veteren can adjust air taps by eye alone to what is working elsewhere


Is it something written on the box the sponge comes in ?
yes often it is, however I'm sure a rep can assist you with this as the
answer is going to be difficult on paper.
you are better practising with them and working out your own optimums.
Slighty easier with a few hundred tanks to stuff around with


and no, every sewrage farm is not an open system!
infact most are closed too!

Closed in what sense ?
Do you dump raw sewage into the same tank
cleaned water is taken out from the system ?
Interesting...

No friend, you process batches and then dilute.
Serious go on a tour, you will get some good ideas.
Almost every filter in the hobby was developed from the sewrage industry.
Wheels and ugf and all sorts of stuff
I can see your interested and I can only say READ READ READ man!!



you have missed the point friend
and it's too late and my chicky is too hot too explain now.
later tho


There is always another day - sleep well
and please explain this when you find some time.

no prob mate, but perhaps a few less broad demands and maybe I will bother
explaining anything more than half arsed