Water change reuse?

Yep, you're right, I said it can't be done. Oh wait, I didn't. That's
right, I just said, in the 1000's of posts I've read on this topic and the
back and forth arguments that have been done, not one person has posted a
pic of their non-water changed reef tank.

You were implying that it can't be done because you have not seen any
pictures from non-water changers.

I'm no expert but I think the grand total cost of getting a disposable
camera and taking it to WalMart to have them put it on a CD is like $20.
Far less than those whom can afford this hobby should worry about. So I
think there is something else preventing this.

What would a picture tell you anyway? How can you gage the quality of my
water from a picture?

I'm not saying it can't be done.

Now you agree that having a healthy aquarium with no water changes is
possible.?.

I know nothing about chemistry, nor do I wish to.

Nor do you wish you to? You agree that you know nothing about chemistry and
you are content not knowing any chemistry? And yet, you are convinced you
need to do water changes?

I know that when I got into this hobby I read several books and web pages,
not all of whom own fish stores. And everything I read recommended water
changes.

All of the books I have read also stated to do water changes. Hmmmm. Why
is my aquarium doing so well? Oh, wait I know, they are WRONG.
Do you believe everything you read?

I don't do them as religiously as I should,
and yes my critters still live. But I don't have a lot of very expensive
coral, I have just a small bit. But I do change my water, and when I do
it's about 50%.

Why do you do water changes?

Do I know that if I didn't I would be killing my inverts? no...

Than why do it?

but water changes are more than nitrate export, they also replace important
elements that get used by corals(from my understanding).

Like what?

* Inabón Yunes wrote, On 11/10/2006 9:12 PM:
maybe the need is caused by her LFS...

Maybe it's because I enjoy doing it.
If I depended on the LFS, I would definitely have more problems...
I stare at the tank all the time. Sometimes I like to DO some
housekeeping in there. And new water so clearly makes the critters happy. They
zip around, shake their booty and check things out.

"bo0ger1" .@. wrote in message
m...

At what point do you "see the need"? What are your requirements?

I look at the tank every day. I know what it should look like. If it
doesn't look right and I can't fix it by cleaning the glass, I change some water.

If you
are taking water measurements for nitrate, ammonia, or nitrite and these
specs are qualifiers for your "need" to do a water change, than you have
other problems.

I'm not.
I have a test kit, but I very seldom use it because I don't need to. I
look at the tank every day, and if it looks less than tip-top I change some
water. I've been keeping fish for years and after awhile you can tell by
looking. knock on wood
Granted, I have a couple small tanks, deep sand, lots of rocks, low
bio-load, no sumps, no skimmers. If I were running a large system, I'd have a
lot more equipment and I'd test at least once a month. Heck, maybe even twice.
I just got a job, maybe I'll even add a refugium so my mangroves don't
have to grow in the tanks. What fun!

Your "need" to do a water change is masking a problem.
I have a feeling that your "need" to do a water change is purely
ritualistic.

Could be. Maybe it's that nesting urge. Meanwhile it maakes me AND my
fish happy and prevents any major water quality problems from appearing, so I
don't consider it a waste of time.
I would definitely never recommend against regular water changes in a
forum frequented by newbies looking for help who might take it as gospel and
don't have the experience to take good care of their own tanks withOUT said
changes. If you can afford this hobby at all, aquarium salt is not going to
break the bank.

Cindy

At what point do you "see the need"? What are your requirements?

I look at the tank every day. I know what it should look like. If
it doesn't look right and I can't fix it by cleaning the glass, I change
some water.

You are masking a problem by doing the water change.

Granted, I have a couple small tanks, deep sand, lots of rocks, low
bio-load, no sumps, no skimmers.

Ah, there is your problem! No skimmer. You have been keeping fish for
years and you dont have a skimmer? You definitely would benefit from a
skimmer. It will reduce your bio load.

To use one of your lines:
If you can afford this hobby at all, buying a SKIMMER is not going to break
the bank.

If I were running a large system, I'd have a lot more equipment and I'd
test at least once a month. Heck, maybe even twice.
I just got a job, maybe I'll even add a refugium so my mangroves
don't have to grow in the tanks. What fun!

Your "need" to do a water change is masking a problem.
I have a feeling that your "need" to do a water change is purely
ritualistic.

Could be. Maybe it's that nesting urge. Meanwhile it maakes me AND
my fish happy and prevents any major water quality problems from
appearing, so I don't consider it a waste of time.

If you can look at your tank and tell your water is not "tip top" than your
problems have ALREADY appeared.
Fix the root of the problem and no need to do water changes.

I would definitely never recommend against regular water changes in a
forum frequented by newbies looking for help who might take it as gospel
and don't have the experience to take good care of their own tanks withOUT
said changes.

I wouldn't keep pushing this water changing folklore on newbies looking for
help.

If you can afford this hobby at all, aquarium salt is not going to break
the bank.

It is not an issue of money, it is an issue of neccessity.


Cindy

bo0ger1 wrote:
Yep, you're right, I said it can't be done. Oh wait, I didn't. That's
right, I just said, in the 1000's of posts I've read on this topic and the
back and forth arguments that have been done, not one person has posted a
pic of their non-water changed reef tank.


You were implying that it can't be done because you have not seen any
pictures from non-water changers.
Nope, I wasn't implying anything. But your word doesn't mean anything to me



I'm no expert but I think the grand total cost of getting a disposable
camera and taking it to WalMart to have them put it on a CD is like $20.
Far less than those whom can afford this hobby should worry about. So I
think there is something else preventing this.


What would a picture tell you anyway? How can you gage the quality of my
water from a picture?

Well if you had corals flourishing and anemones frolicking, it would be
a better picture than say dead things floating in the water.

I'm not saying it can't be done.


Now you agree that having a healthy aquarium with no water changes is
possible.?.

I agree that anything is possible, but many many more people than you
and your friend say that water changes are necessary with the current
technology.

I know nothing about chemistry, nor do I wish to.


Nor do you wish you to? You agree that you know nothing about chemistry and
you are content not knowing any chemistry? And yet, you are convinced you
need to do water changes?

I'm not convinced I do, but I'm further from convinced that I
don't....you telling me is not good enough. Seeing some kind of setup,
anything might prove your point, but you have nothing, at all, just your
word.


I know that when I got into this hobby I read several books and web pages,
not all of whom own fish stores. And everything I read recommended water
changes.


All of the books I have read also stated to do water changes. Hmmmm. Why
is my aquarium doing so well? Oh, wait I know, they are WRONG.
Do you believe everything you read?

I don't believe everything I read, for instance I believe very little of
what you type. But when marine biologists highly touted as the best in
a particular field write books. Or when zoos and aquariums do water
changes, I figure it best to believe them instead of a person whom I
know nothing more than being a troll on a newsgroup.

I don't do them as religiously as I should,

and yes my critters still live. But I don't have a lot of very expensive
coral, I have just a small bit. But I do change my water, and when I do
it's about 50%.


Why do you do water changes?

It makes a difference in the lives of my creatures



Do I know that if I didn't I would be killing my inverts? no...


Than why do it?

Cuz it's the thing to do. All the kids are doing it...you should try.



but water changes are more than nitrate export, they also replace important
elements that get used by corals(from my understanding).


Like what?

I hear iodine, strontium other crap, again, not a chemist, don't want to
be. And you say, then add it back in. And I say, I don't know what to
add, so I'll buy a bucket of salt for $50 every year, instead of
spending $1000's in suppliments.

Inabón Yunes wrote:
Great tank!
Can you share the lighting system you use?
Thanks, I thought I was alone against the water changes.
BTW, I see is an edu site, is that tank in your house or on campus?
As soon as I build my new hood, I will be posting my pictures here too...
This is getting interesting, I bet the LFSs here are going to hit you hard
now.
iy

It's only 2 x 96 plus 4 little moonlights.
I change water often!
The tank is in my house. There's a dramatic one on campus.
You're not going to believe this, but the LFS here is
extremely helpful.

rtk

Steven M wrote:

"rtk" wrote in message
...

You say you want pics?

http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/...l****erID.html

rtk



Nice tank.
pic of mine
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...diyrock064.jpg


Very dramatic! I wish I could have a Yellow Tang, but my
tank is too small.

rtk

The arguments below ignore an important aspect of tank care.
We love our tanks. We love to play with them, make little or
big changes in the coral landscape, get a new fish, remove
green fuzz, siphon up brown, feed the little sweethearts,
wipe their little asses - I mean clean their septic systems
- take photos of our precious hobby and just generally spend
some of our spare time and not so spare money on our live
interest. If I didn't enjoy all that, I not only wouldn't
clean the tank, I wouldn't have one at all.

rtk

bo0ger1 wrote:

Yep, you're right, I said it can't be done. Oh wait, I didn't. That's
right, I just said, in the 1000's of posts I've read on this topic and the
back and forth arguments that have been done, not one person has posted a
pic of their non-water changed reef tank.


You were implying that it can't be done because you have not seen any
pictures from non-water changers.


I'm no expert but I think the grand total cost of getting a disposable
camera and taking it to WalMart to have them put it on a CD is like $20.
Far less than those whom can afford this hobby should worry about. So I
think there is something else preventing this.


What would a picture tell you anyway? How can you gage the quality of my
water from a picture?


I'm not saying it can't be done.


Now you agree that having a healthy aquarium with no water changes is
possible.?.


I know nothing about chemistry, nor do I wish to.


Nor do you wish you to? You agree that you know nothing about chemistry and
you are content not knowing any chemistry? And yet, you are convinced you
need to do water changes?


I know that when I got into this hobby I read several books and web pages,
not all of whom own fish stores. And everything I read recommended water
changes.


All of the books I have read also stated to do water changes. Hmmmm. Why
is my aquarium doing so well? Oh, wait I know, they are WRONG.
Do you believe everything you read?

I don't do them as religiously as I should,

and yes my critters still live. But I don't have a lot of very expensive
coral, I have just a small bit. But I do change my water, and when I do
it's about 50%.


Why do you do water changes?


Do I know that if I didn't I would be killing my inverts? no...


Than why do it?


but water changes are more than nitrate export, they also replace important
elements that get used by corals(from my understanding).


Like what?

You were implying that it can't be done because you have not seen any
pictures from non-water changers.
Nope, I wasn't implying anything. But your word doesn't mean anything to
me

You were implying it. If my word doesn't mean anything to you than why are
you responding to me?

Well if you had corals flourishing and anemones frolicking, it would be a
better picture than say dead things floating in the water.

I can assure you that I do not keep an aquarium with dead animals floating
around. Why would anyone do that?

Now you agree that having a healthy aquarium with no water changes is
possible.?.

I agree that anything is possible, but many many more people than you and
your friend say that water changes are necessary with the current
technology.

This is called FOLLOWING the HERD. Follow away!

Nor do you wish you to? You agree that you know nothing about chemistry
and you are content not knowing any chemistry? And yet, you are
convinced you need to do water changes?

I'm not convinced I do, but I'm further from convinced that I don't....you
telling me is not good enough. Seeing some kind of setup, anything might
prove your point, but you have nothing, at all, just your word.

I have a lot more than my word. I have a healthy aquarium. YOU have
nothing more than my word.

All of the books I have read also stated to do water changes. Hmmmm.
Why is my aquarium doing so well? Oh, wait I know, they are WRONG.
Do you believe everything you read?

I don't believe everything I read, for instance I believe very little of
what you type.

Good. I'm glad the irony wasn't wasted.

But when marine biologists highly touted as the best in a particular field
write books.

Really? Everyone that writes a book on marine aquariums is the best in
their field? Do you REALLY believe this?

Or when zoos and aquariums do water changes, I figure it best to believe
them instead of a person whom I know nothing more than being a troll on a
newsgroup.

I'm a troll because I don't do water changes?

Why do you do water changes?

It makes a difference in the lives of my creatures

In what way? Do they smile more?

Do I know that if I didn't I would be killing my inverts? no...


Than why do it?

Cuz it's the thing to do. All the kids are doing it...you should try.

No thanks. I don't believe in just blindly following the herd.


but water changes are more than nitrate export, they also replace
important elements that get used by corals(from my understanding).


Like what?

I hear iodine, strontium other crap, again, not a chemist, don't want to
be. And you say, then add it back in. And I say, I don't know what to
add, so I'll buy a bucket of salt for $50 every year, instead of spending
$1000's in suppliments.

You can add trace elements. It is much cheaper and easier than doing a
water change. Doing water changes also puts more stress on your
inhabitants.

$1000's in supplements? Where do you shop? Waynes?

bo0ger1 wrote:
You were implying that it can't be done because you have not seen any
pictures from non-water changers.

Nope, I wasn't implying anything. But your word doesn't mean anything to
me


You were implying it. If my word doesn't mean anything to you than why are
you responding to me?

Because I have nothing better to do. And no I wasn't implying it. It
would just help if we could all see your particular setup. I mean you
can't honestly believe that every person in every situation needs no
water changes. Someone with an under-gravel filter for instance has no
possible way to get rid of nitrates other than water changes. But you
blindly say, no water changes.



Well if you had corals flourishing and anemones frolicking, it would be a
better picture than say dead things floating in the water.


I can assure you that I do not keep an aquarium with dead animals floating
around. Why would anyone do that?

I don't know why people do what they do. My point is, do you have
sensitive invertibrates, such as coral and anemones, or just fish and
rock? It's been tauted time and time again that fish are far hardier
than other reef creatures, and do not need water changes. Nobody at all
disputes this. Some dude came on here and said that for 2 years his
wife did nothing with the tank apart from top-offs, and he didn't lose
any fish. No surprise.



Now you agree that having a healthy aquarium with no water changes is
possible.?.


I agree that anything is possible, but many many more people than you and
your friend say that water changes are necessary with the current
technology.


This is called FOLLOWING the HERD. Follow away!

Ya, I follow the herd on lots of things. Like I eat 3 meals a day. I
also sleep every night. Turns out I also obey most of the laws set
forth in the books. You're such a rebel for not changing your water, I
might compare you to Fonzie.



Nor do you wish you to? You agree that you know nothing about chemistry
and you are content not knowing any chemistry? And yet, you are
convinced you need to do water changes?


I'm not convinced I do, but I'm further from convinced that I don't....you
telling me is not good enough. Seeing some kind of setup, anything might
prove your point, but you have nothing, at all, just your word.


I have a lot more than my word. I have a healthy aquarium. YOU have
nothing more than my word.

You're right, you have everything. I have no more than your word.
Turns out I only care about myself so that's what's important to me.



All of the books I have read also stated to do water changes. Hmmmm.
Why is my aquarium doing so well? Oh, wait I know, they are WRONG.
Do you believe everything you read?


I don't believe everything I read, for instance I believe very little of
what you type.


Good. I'm glad the irony wasn't wasted.


But when marine biologists highly touted as the best in a particular field
write books.


Really? Everyone that writes a book on marine aquariums is the best in
their field? Do you REALLY believe this?

You're right that's what I said, oh sh*t, no it's not. I said that they
have written books and are highly touted. Many, many people have read
and followed their advice and had successful aquariums. If you can
point me to one book(actually published and sold somewhere, not the
internet, where any goofball can write a page) anywhere that says it's
cool not to change your water ever, I'd greatly appreciate it.



Or when zoos and aquariums do water changes, I figure it best to believe
them instead of a person whom I know nothing more than being a troll on a
newsgroup.

Note you didn't respond to this. An aquarium with huge volumes of water
at a zoo or what have you. I'm sure it's incredibly expensive to change
the water that they do. Why do they do it, if it's unnecessary.
Seriously, if you have more knowledge on the subject than every marine
biologist at every zoo, than I'm truly impressed. Oh, they're probably
just blindly following the herd.



I'm a troll because I don't do water changes?

No, you're a troll because you're a jerk, as illustrated in your many
other posts.


Why do you do water changes?

It makes a difference in the lives of my creatures


In what way? Do they smile more?

Yep, they do, actually they seem more active and cheerful.



Do I know that if I didn't I would be killing my inverts? no...


Than why do it?

Cuz it's the thing to do. All the kids are doing it...you should try.


No thanks. I don't believe in just blindly following the herd.

Sure you do, just not on this issue.



but water changes are more than nitrate export, they also replace
important elements that get used by corals(from my understanding).


Like what?

I hear iodine, strontium other crap, again, not a chemist, don't want to
be. And you say, then add it back in. And I say, I don't know what to
add, so I'll buy a bucket of salt for $50 every year, instead of spending
$1000's in suppliments.


You can add trace elements. It is much cheaper and easier than doing a
water change. Doing water changes also puts more stress on your
inhabitants.

$1000's in supplements? Where do you shop? Waynes?

What elements? How much of each? What do you put in for your corals?
And how the hell much do you pay for salt and water. I know that a
bucket of salt costs me between $35 and $50 and lasts plenty long I
haven't calculated how much the water costs, but I'm guessing it's less
than one shower or bath costs. Taking water out is not difficult and
putting it back in is easier, so expensive and difficult do not compute.

You were implying it. If my word doesn't mean anything to you than why
are you responding to me?

Because I have nothing better to do. And no I wasn't implying it. It
would just help if we could all see your particular setup. I mean you
can't honestly believe that every person in every situation needs no water
changes. Someone with an under-gravel filter for instance has no possible
way to get rid of nitrates other than water changes. But you blindly say,
no water changes.

Ok, let me clarify. With adequate skimming there is no need to do a water
change.

I can assure you that I do not keep an aquarium with dead animals
floating around. Why would anyone do that?

I don't know why people do what they do. My point is, do you have
sensitive invertibrates, such as coral and anemones, or just fish and
rock?

I have fish an anenome (doing fine) and live rock.

It's been tauted time and time again that fish are far hardier than other
reef creatures, and do not need water changes. Nobody at all disputes
this. Some dude came on here and said that for 2 years his wife did
nothing with the tank apart from top-offs, and he didn't lose any fish.
No surprise.

I have read marine books that state that water changes are necessary even
for FOWLR tanks. They are wrong.

This is called FOLLOWING the HERD. Follow away!

Ya, I follow the herd on lots of things. Like I eat 3 meals a day. I
also sleep every night. Turns out I also obey most of the laws set forth
in the books.
You are too funny! Laws set forth in books? If I write a book (hey I even
have a Ph.D.) on marine aquariums, does that make what I state laws?

You're such a rebel for not changing your water, I might compare you to
Fonzie.

I might compare you to a few bovine I have seen.

I have a lot more than my word. I have a healthy aquarium. YOU have
nothing more than my word.

You're right, you have everything. I have no more than your word. Turns
out I only care about myself so that's what's important to me.

Great! You want to perform water changes because that makes you happy.
Why do you feel the need to put down those that have realized it isn't
necessary?

Really? Everyone that writes a book on marine aquariums is the best in
their field? Do you REALLY believe this?

You're right that's what I said, oh sh*t, no it's not. I said that they
have written books and are highly touted. Many, many people have read and
followed their advice and had successful aquariums.

Nope you said "But when marine biologists highly touted as the best in a
particular field write books. "
Are all marine biologists that write books highly touted? How do you know
the difference?

Many people have NOT followed their advice and ALSO have had successful
marine aquariums so what's your point?

If you can point me to one book(actually published and sold somewhere,
not the internet, where any goofball can write a page) anywhere that says
it's cool not to change your water ever, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I said it's cool not to change your water? Oh wait, no I didn't. I am
saying its is NOT necessary.

AND again DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ.

Or when zoos and aquariums do water changes, I figure it best to believe
them instead of a person whom I know nothing more than being a troll on a
newsgroup.

Note you didn't respond to this. An aquarium with huge volumes of water
at a zoo or what have you. I'm sure it's incredibly expensive to change
the water that they do. Why do they do it, if it's unnecessary.

Probably for the same reason you do it.

Seriously, if you have more knowledge on the subject than every marine
biologist at every zoo, than I'm truly impressed. Oh, they're probably
just blindly following the herd.

I know nothing about maintaining aquariums at a zoo and never claimed I did.
We are talking about home scale marine aquariums.

I'm a troll because I don't do water changes?

No, you're a troll because you're a jerk, as illustrated in your many
other posts.

I'm a troll because I'm a jerk? Why don't you just call me Hitler and get
it over with.

Am I wrong because I'm a jerk?

In what way? Do they smile more?

Yep, they do, actually they seem more active and cheerful.

Are you an LSD user?

No thanks. I don't believe in just blindly following the herd.

Sure you do, just not on this issue.

On what issue do I hollow the herd? Because I sleep at night? or eat food?
This is not following the herd Pat.

$1000's in supplements? Where do you shop? Waynes?

What elements? How much of each?

Read the label on the trace elements bottle you purchase.


What do you put in for your corals?

I don't have coral. Never claimed to.


And how the hell much do you pay for salt and water. I know that a bucket
of salt costs me between $35 and $50 and lasts plenty long I haven't
calculated how much the water costs, but I'm guessing it's less than one
shower or bath costs. Taking water out is not difficult and putting it
back in is easier, so expensive and difficult do not compute.

I NEVER said water changes are difficult. Read this VERY slowly : My
point is water changes are NOT NECESSARY.