Water change reuse?

You were implying that it can't be done because you have not seen any
pictures from non-water changers.
Nope, I wasn't implying anything. But your word doesn't mean anything to
me

You were implying it. If my word doesn't mean anything to you than why are
you responding to me?

Well if you had corals flourishing and anemones frolicking, it would be a
better picture than say dead things floating in the water.

I can assure you that I do not keep an aquarium with dead animals floating
around. Why would anyone do that?

Now you agree that having a healthy aquarium with no water changes is
possible.?.

I agree that anything is possible, but many many more people than you and
your friend say that water changes are necessary with the current
technology.

This is called FOLLOWING the HERD. Follow away!

Nor do you wish you to? You agree that you know nothing about chemistry
and you are content not knowing any chemistry? And yet, you are
convinced you need to do water changes?

I'm not convinced I do, but I'm further from convinced that I don't....you
telling me is not good enough. Seeing some kind of setup, anything might
prove your point, but you have nothing, at all, just your word.

I have a lot more than my word. I have a healthy aquarium. YOU have
nothing more than my word.

All of the books I have read also stated to do water changes. Hmmmm.
Why is my aquarium doing so well? Oh, wait I know, they are WRONG.
Do you believe everything you read?

I don't believe everything I read, for instance I believe very little of
what you type.

Good. I'm glad the irony wasn't wasted.

But when marine biologists highly touted as the best in a particular field
write books.

Really? Everyone that writes a book on marine aquariums is the best in
their field? Do you REALLY believe this?

Or when zoos and aquariums do water changes, I figure it best to believe
them instead of a person whom I know nothing more than being a troll on a
newsgroup.

I'm a troll because I don't do water changes?

Why do you do water changes?

It makes a difference in the lives of my creatures

In what way? Do they smile more?

Do I know that if I didn't I would be killing my inverts? no...


Than why do it?

Cuz it's the thing to do. All the kids are doing it...you should try.

No thanks. I don't believe in just blindly following the herd.


but water changes are more than nitrate export, they also replace
important elements that get used by corals(from my understanding).


Like what?

I hear iodine, strontium other crap, again, not a chemist, don't want to
be. And you say, then add it back in. And I say, I don't know what to
add, so I'll buy a bucket of salt for $50 every year, instead of spending
$1000's in suppliments.

You can add trace elements. It is much cheaper and easier than doing a
water change. Doing water changes also puts more stress on your
inhabitants.

$1000's in supplements? Where do you shop? Waynes?

bo0ger1 wrote:
You were implying that it can't be done because you have not seen any
pictures from non-water changers.

Nope, I wasn't implying anything. But your word doesn't mean anything to
me


You were implying it. If my word doesn't mean anything to you than why are
you responding to me?

Because I have nothing better to do. And no I wasn't implying it. It
would just help if we could all see your particular setup. I mean you
can't honestly believe that every person in every situation needs no
water changes. Someone with an under-gravel filter for instance has no
possible way to get rid of nitrates other than water changes. But you
blindly say, no water changes.



Well if you had corals flourishing and anemones frolicking, it would be a
better picture than say dead things floating in the water.


I can assure you that I do not keep an aquarium with dead animals floating
around. Why would anyone do that?

I don't know why people do what they do. My point is, do you have
sensitive invertibrates, such as coral and anemones, or just fish and
rock? It's been tauted time and time again that fish are far hardier
than other reef creatures, and do not need water changes. Nobody at all
disputes this. Some dude came on here and said that for 2 years his
wife did nothing with the tank apart from top-offs, and he didn't lose
any fish. No surprise.



Now you agree that having a healthy aquarium with no water changes is
possible.?.


I agree that anything is possible, but many many more people than you and
your friend say that water changes are necessary with the current
technology.


This is called FOLLOWING the HERD. Follow away!

Ya, I follow the herd on lots of things. Like I eat 3 meals a day. I
also sleep every night. Turns out I also obey most of the laws set
forth in the books. You're such a rebel for not changing your water, I
might compare you to Fonzie.



Nor do you wish you to? You agree that you know nothing about chemistry
and you are content not knowing any chemistry? And yet, you are
convinced you need to do water changes?


I'm not convinced I do, but I'm further from convinced that I don't....you
telling me is not good enough. Seeing some kind of setup, anything might
prove your point, but you have nothing, at all, just your word.


I have a lot more than my word. I have a healthy aquarium. YOU have
nothing more than my word.

You're right, you have everything. I have no more than your word.
Turns out I only care about myself so that's what's important to me.



All of the books I have read also stated to do water changes. Hmmmm.
Why is my aquarium doing so well? Oh, wait I know, they are WRONG.
Do you believe everything you read?


I don't believe everything I read, for instance I believe very little of
what you type.


Good. I'm glad the irony wasn't wasted.


But when marine biologists highly touted as the best in a particular field
write books.


Really? Everyone that writes a book on marine aquariums is the best in
their field? Do you REALLY believe this?

You're right that's what I said, oh sh*t, no it's not. I said that they
have written books and are highly touted. Many, many people have read
and followed their advice and had successful aquariums. If you can
point me to one book(actually published and sold somewhere, not the
internet, where any goofball can write a page) anywhere that says it's
cool not to change your water ever, I'd greatly appreciate it.



Or when zoos and aquariums do water changes, I figure it best to believe
them instead of a person whom I know nothing more than being a troll on a
newsgroup.

Note you didn't respond to this. An aquarium with huge volumes of water
at a zoo or what have you. I'm sure it's incredibly expensive to change
the water that they do. Why do they do it, if it's unnecessary.
Seriously, if you have more knowledge on the subject than every marine
biologist at every zoo, than I'm truly impressed. Oh, they're probably
just blindly following the herd.



I'm a troll because I don't do water changes?

No, you're a troll because you're a jerk, as illustrated in your many
other posts.


Why do you do water changes?

It makes a difference in the lives of my creatures


In what way? Do they smile more?

Yep, they do, actually they seem more active and cheerful.



Do I know that if I didn't I would be killing my inverts? no...


Than why do it?

Cuz it's the thing to do. All the kids are doing it...you should try.


No thanks. I don't believe in just blindly following the herd.

Sure you do, just not on this issue.



but water changes are more than nitrate export, they also replace
important elements that get used by corals(from my understanding).


Like what?

I hear iodine, strontium other crap, again, not a chemist, don't want to
be. And you say, then add it back in. And I say, I don't know what to
add, so I'll buy a bucket of salt for $50 every year, instead of spending
$1000's in suppliments.


You can add trace elements. It is much cheaper and easier than doing a
water change. Doing water changes also puts more stress on your
inhabitants.

$1000's in supplements? Where do you shop? Waynes?

What elements? How much of each? What do you put in for your corals?
And how the hell much do you pay for salt and water. I know that a
bucket of salt costs me between $35 and $50 and lasts plenty long I
haven't calculated how much the water costs, but I'm guessing it's less
than one shower or bath costs. Taking water out is not difficult and
putting it back in is easier, so expensive and difficult do not compute.

You were implying it. If my word doesn't mean anything to you than why
are you responding to me?

Because I have nothing better to do. And no I wasn't implying it. It
would just help if we could all see your particular setup. I mean you
can't honestly believe that every person in every situation needs no water
changes. Someone with an under-gravel filter for instance has no possible
way to get rid of nitrates other than water changes. But you blindly say,
no water changes.

Ok, let me clarify. With adequate skimming there is no need to do a water
change.

I can assure you that I do not keep an aquarium with dead animals
floating around. Why would anyone do that?

I don't know why people do what they do. My point is, do you have
sensitive invertibrates, such as coral and anemones, or just fish and
rock?

I have fish an anenome (doing fine) and live rock.

It's been tauted time and time again that fish are far hardier than other
reef creatures, and do not need water changes. Nobody at all disputes
this. Some dude came on here and said that for 2 years his wife did
nothing with the tank apart from top-offs, and he didn't lose any fish.
No surprise.

I have read marine books that state that water changes are necessary even
for FOWLR tanks. They are wrong.

This is called FOLLOWING the HERD. Follow away!

Ya, I follow the herd on lots of things. Like I eat 3 meals a day. I
also sleep every night. Turns out I also obey most of the laws set forth
in the books.
You are too funny! Laws set forth in books? If I write a book (hey I even
have a Ph.D.) on marine aquariums, does that make what I state laws?

You're such a rebel for not changing your water, I might compare you to
Fonzie.

I might compare you to a few bovine I have seen.

I have a lot more than my word. I have a healthy aquarium. YOU have
nothing more than my word.

You're right, you have everything. I have no more than your word. Turns
out I only care about myself so that's what's important to me.

Great! You want to perform water changes because that makes you happy.
Why do you feel the need to put down those that have realized it isn't
necessary?

Really? Everyone that writes a book on marine aquariums is the best in
their field? Do you REALLY believe this?

You're right that's what I said, oh sh*t, no it's not. I said that they
have written books and are highly touted. Many, many people have read and
followed their advice and had successful aquariums.

Nope you said "But when marine biologists highly touted as the best in a
particular field write books. "
Are all marine biologists that write books highly touted? How do you know
the difference?

Many people have NOT followed their advice and ALSO have had successful
marine aquariums so what's your point?

If you can point me to one book(actually published and sold somewhere,
not the internet, where any goofball can write a page) anywhere that says
it's cool not to change your water ever, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I said it's cool not to change your water? Oh wait, no I didn't. I am
saying its is NOT necessary.

AND again DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ.

Or when zoos and aquariums do water changes, I figure it best to believe
them instead of a person whom I know nothing more than being a troll on a
newsgroup.

Note you didn't respond to this. An aquarium with huge volumes of water
at a zoo or what have you. I'm sure it's incredibly expensive to change
the water that they do. Why do they do it, if it's unnecessary.

Probably for the same reason you do it.

Seriously, if you have more knowledge on the subject than every marine
biologist at every zoo, than I'm truly impressed. Oh, they're probably
just blindly following the herd.

I know nothing about maintaining aquariums at a zoo and never claimed I did.
We are talking about home scale marine aquariums.

I'm a troll because I don't do water changes?

No, you're a troll because you're a jerk, as illustrated in your many
other posts.

I'm a troll because I'm a jerk? Why don't you just call me Hitler and get
it over with.

Am I wrong because I'm a jerk?

In what way? Do they smile more?

Yep, they do, actually they seem more active and cheerful.

Are you an LSD user?

No thanks. I don't believe in just blindly following the herd.

Sure you do, just not on this issue.

On what issue do I hollow the herd? Because I sleep at night? or eat food?
This is not following the herd Pat.

$1000's in supplements? Where do you shop? Waynes?

What elements? How much of each?

Read the label on the trace elements bottle you purchase.


What do you put in for your corals?

I don't have coral. Never claimed to.


And how the hell much do you pay for salt and water. I know that a bucket
of salt costs me between $35 and $50 and lasts plenty long I haven't
calculated how much the water costs, but I'm guessing it's less than one
shower or bath costs. Taking water out is not difficult and putting it
back in is easier, so expensive and difficult do not compute.

I NEVER said water changes are difficult. Read this VERY slowly : My
point is water changes are NOT NECESSARY.

bo0ger1 wrote:
You were implying it. If my word doesn't mean anything to you than why
are you responding to me?

Because I have nothing better to do. And no I wasn't implying it. It
would just help if we could all see your particular setup. I mean you
can't honestly believe that every person in every situation needs no water
changes. Someone with an under-gravel filter for instance has no possible
way to get rid of nitrates other than water changes. But you blindly say,
no water changes.


Ok, let me clarify. With adequate skimming there is no need to do a water
change.

What is adequate skimming? Just a protein skimmer is all you need...no
live rock...a skimmer takes out all nitrates?



I can assure you that I do not keep an aquarium with dead animals
floating around. Why would anyone do that?

I don't know why people do what they do. My point is, do you have
sensitive invertibrates, such as coral and anemones, or just fish and
rock?


I have fish an anenome (doing fine) and live rock.

How do you know it's fine....did it tell you? Are you an LSD user?



It's been tauted time and time again that fish are far hardier than other
reef creatures, and do not need water changes. Nobody at all disputes
this. Some dude came on here and said that for 2 years his wife did
nothing with the tank apart from top-offs, and he didn't lose any fish.
No surprise.


I have read marine books that state that water changes are necessary even
for FOWLR tanks. They are wrong.


Necessary, no, but some form of nitrate export is needed.


This is called FOLLOWING the HERD. Follow away!

Ya, I follow the herd on lots of things. Like I eat 3 meals a day. I
also sleep every night. Turns out I also obey most of the laws set forth
in the books.

You are too funny! Laws set forth in books? If I write a book (hey I even
have a Ph.D.) on marine aquariums, does that make what I state laws?


I was speaking of laws, like don't kill people etc. Not referring to
aquarium laws. Wow they give out Ph.D.'s like candy on Halloween huh?


You're such a rebel for not changing your water, I might compare you to
Fonzie.


I might compare you to a few bovine I have seen.

I would too, but mainly because I'm obese though.



I have a lot more than my word. I have a healthy aquarium. YOU have
nothing more than my word.

You're right, you have everything. I have no more than your word. Turns
out I only care about myself so that's what's important to me.


Great! You want to perform water changes because that makes you happy.
Why do you feel the need to put down those that have realized it isn't
necessary?


Not putting you down because of your not changing water, putting you
down because you blindly state, don't change your water. Which to some
may mean put salt water in a box and put fish in, no need for anything
other than a skimmer, make sure it's an adequate one. Sure throw a
coral in there. Anemone. Sure...now let them stew in their own excrement.


Really? Everyone that writes a book on marine aquariums is the best in
their field? Do you REALLY believe this?

You're right that's what I said, oh sh*t, no it's not. I said that they
have written books and are highly touted. Many, many people have read and
followed their advice and had successful aquariums.


Nope you said "But when marine biologists highly touted as the best in a
particular field write books. "
Are all marine biologists that write books highly touted? How do you know
the difference?

I know the difference because they sell many books, are reviewed highly
and people follow their advice with great success. You, Dr. are spewing
things as fact that you have no concept of. Have you done a study of
life expectancy of fish who live without water changes vs. those that
get changed? Or do you just assume because your fish are alive that
they are healthy.


Many people have NOT followed their advice and ALSO have had successful
marine aquariums so what's your point?

Reef aquariums? None of you fools have stated to have coral. You claim
to have a healthy anemone. But for whatever reason, you won't share
pictures, or show your setup, you blindly say don't change your water.
Well Dr. that makes you an irresponsible jerk.



If you can point me to one book(actually published and sold somewhere,
not the internet, where any goofball can write a page) anywhere that says
it's cool not to change your water ever, I'd greatly appreciate it.


I said it's cool not to change your water? Oh wait, no I didn't. I am
saying its is NOT necessary.

Meaning it's ok...which is the way I was using cool. Point me to 1
single publication that says "It's not necessary to change your water".


AND again DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ.

So how do I determine whether to believe you. The books I read had
pictures. You don't.



Or when zoos and aquariums do water changes, I figure it best to believe
them instead of a person whom I know nothing more than being a troll on a
newsgroup.

Note you didn't respond to this. An aquarium with huge volumes of water
at a zoo or what have you. I'm sure it's incredibly expensive to change
the water that they do. Why do they do it, if it's unnecessary.


Probably for the same reason you do it.

Which is, to follow the herd. That makes a lot of sense for an
organization that has nowhere near the amount of money they need any
damned way.



Seriously, if you have more knowledge on the subject than every marine
biologist at every zoo, than I'm truly impressed. Oh, they're probably
just blindly following the herd.


I know nothing about maintaining aquariums at a zoo and never claimed I did.
We are talking about home scale marine aquariums.

Why is that different than a zoo, you'd think there'd be less need to
change the water there, more volume, more stable...etc. Where did you
get your knowledge on home aquariums. Personal research, you just got
lazy and stopped doing water changes so you now decided for the world
that it's not necessary.



I'm a troll because I don't do water changes?

No, you're a troll because you're a jerk, as illustrated in your many
other posts.


I'm a troll because I'm a jerk? Why don't you just call me Hitler and get
it over with.

Ok, Hitler, hail.


Am I wrong because I'm a jerk?

You're wrong because, apart from your word, you provide no evidence that
your theory holds water(notice the cute pun, damn I'm witty).
Additionally you take your theory and extend it to animals that you have
no experience keeping. So what if you are wrong, what if corals need
water changes. Is it possible? Please prove to me that they don't. If
your reply is, I never mentioned corals. Then you should get out of the
REEFs newsgroup and post in the fish only one.



In what way? Do they smile more?

Yep, they do, actually they seem more active and cheerful.


Are you an LSD user?

Not currently. Why, got some?



No thanks. I don't believe in just blindly following the herd.

Sure you do, just not on this issue.


On what issue do I hollow the herd? Because I sleep at night? or eat food?
This is not following the herd Pat.

Sure it is. Or you ever take a quick peek at a TV show because it's
pretty popular. Ever read a movie review to see what people are saying
about them. Ever read a customer review before buying something online.
Ever not stolen stuff from a store because the herd decided you shouldn't.



$1000's in supplements? Where do you shop? Waynes?

What elements? How much of each?


Read the label on the trace elements bottle you purchase.

Which of the millions of available bottles do I purchase




What do you put in for your corals?


I don't have coral. Never claimed to.

What do you put in for your anemone?




And how the hell much do you pay for salt and water. I know that a bucket
of salt costs me between $35 and $50 and lasts plenty long I haven't
calculated how much the water costs, but I'm guessing it's less than one
shower or bath costs. Taking water out is not difficult and putting it
back in is easier, so expensive and difficult do not compute.


I NEVER said water changes are difficult. Read this VERY slowly : My
point is water changes are NOT NECESSARY.

You said adding supplements is easier, I don't think it is. Too
complicated to figure out what needs what...etc. You did however say
that it's expensive to change water. And you say not necessary as long
as you have an adequate skimmer. Nothing else.

Ok, let me clarify. With adequate skimming there is no need to do a
water change.

What is adequate skimming? Just a protein skimmer is all you need...no
live rock

Using a skimmer that produces a consistently good foam. And of course live
rock. Should I also state you need water?

...a skimmer takes out all nitrates?

A skimmer takes out NO nitrates. I am not sure you are ready for where this
would take us in the discussion.

I have fish an anenome (doing fine) and live rock.

How do you know it's fine....did it tell you? Are you an LSD user?

He is growing and 'looks' healthy. And eats when I feed him.

I have read marine books that state that water changes are necessary even
for FOWLR tanks. They are wrong.


Necessary, no, but some form of nitrate export is needed.

Yes it's called denitrification. It doesn't require water changes nor does
it require a skimmer. (You don't want to go there, you're not ready)

You are too funny! Laws set forth in books? If I write a book (hey I
even have a Ph.D.) on marine aquariums, does that make what I state laws?


I was speaking of laws, like don't kill people etc. Not referring to
aquarium laws. Wow they give out Ph.D.'s like candy on Halloween huh?

This is called an ad hominem attack. You're getting good at these!

Great! You want to perform water changes because that makes you happy.
Why do you feel the need to put down those that have realized it isn't
necessary?


Not putting you down because of your not changing water, putting you down
because you blindly state, don't change your water. Which to some may
mean put salt water in a box and put fish in, no need for anything other
than a skimmer, make sure it's an adequate one. Sure throw a coral in
there. Anemone. Sure...now let them stew in their own excrement.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never stated "put salt water in a box
and put fish in, no need for anything other than a skimmer"

You must claim that all you need to do is put salt water in a box and put
fish in, no need for anything other than performing water changes.

I stated with adequate skimming and live rock no need to do water changes.

Nope you said "But when marine biologists highly touted as the best in a
particular field write books. "
Are all marine biologists that write books highly touted? How do you
know the difference?

I know the difference because they sell many books, are reviewed highly
and people follow their advice with great success.

You are missing my point. People also DO NOT follow their advice and have
great success. What is your point?

You, Dr. are spewing things as fact that you have no concept of. Have you
done a study of life expectancy of fish who live without water changes vs.
those that get changed?

Have you? If you haven't than you can not claim they require it. My fish
and anenome are doing fine (close to two years with no water change).

Or do you just assume because your fish are alive that they are healthy.

No. I assume they are healthy because they are alive AND look healthy AND
are disease free. They also eat when I feed them (one indication of heath
for an animal).

Many people have NOT followed their advice and ALSO have had successful
marine aquariums so what's your point?

Reef aquariums? None of you fools have stated to have coral.

Why the need to call me a fool? This is another ad hominem attack. You are
an expert at this.

You claim to have a healthy anemone. But for whatever reason, you won't
share pictures, or show your setup, you blindly say don't change your
water.

I don't blindly say it, I just say it.

Again, what is a picture going to tell you? You seem to have a real blind
spot here.

Well Dr. that makes you an irresponsible jerk.

Ad hominem attack.

I said it's cool not to change your water? Oh wait, no I didn't. I am
saying its is NOT necessary.

Meaning it's ok...which is the way I was using cool. Point me to 1 single
publication that says "It's not necessary to change your water".

Haven't seen one. I'm not saying they don't exist. I am speaking from
experience. I already told you that the books I have read recommend water
changes.

AND again DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ.

So how do I determine whether to believe you. The books I read had
pictures. You don't.

You don't have to believe me Pat. And I don't care if you do.

Probably for the same reason you do it.

Which is, to follow the herd. That makes a lot of sense for an
organization that has nowhere near the amount of money they need any
damned way.

Yep.

I know nothing about maintaining aquariums at a zoo and never claimed I
did. We are talking about home scale marine aquariums.

Why is that different than a zoo, you'd think there'd be less need to
change the water there, more volume, more stable...etc.

They have MORE water volume, therefore they have MORE water volume to skim.
They might also be over stocking their aquariums. More fish/aquarium = more
interest from visitors = more money. Not sure people would enjoy a poorly
stocked aquarium at a zoo.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges by bringing up zoo aquariums.

Where did you get your knowledge on home aquariums. Personal research,
you just got lazy and stopped doing water changes so you now decided for
the world that it's not necessary.

Yeah, that's it. I'm lazy. I'm also smart enough to know that water
changes are NOT necessary.

I'm a troll because I'm a jerk? Why don't you just call me Hitler and
get it over with.

Ok, Hitler, hail.


Am I wrong because I'm a jerk?

You're wrong because, apart from your word, you provide no evidence that
your theory holds water(notice the cute pun, damn I'm witty).

You're correct here.

Additionally you take your theory and extend it to animals that you have
no experience keeping. So what if you are wrong, what if corals need
water changes. Is it possible? Please prove to me that they don't.

Prove to me that they do.

If your reply is, I never mentioned corals. Then you should get out of
the REEFs newsgroup and post in the fish only one

Are you an LSD user?

Not currently. Why, got some?

No, because you sound like you are hallucinating.

On what issue do I hollow the herd? Because I sleep at night? or eat
food? This is not following the herd Pat.

Sure it is. Or you ever take a quick peek at a TV show because it's
pretty popular. Ever read a movie review to see what people are saying
about them. Ever read a customer review before buying something online.
Ever not stolen stuff from a store because the herd decided you shouldn't.

Hey, if you want to do water changes because "everyone else" is doing them.
Have at it.

Read the label on the trace elements bottle you purchase.

Which of the millions of available bottles do I purchase

Follow the herd. See what they use. You are good at this.

I don't have coral. Never claimed to.

What do you put in for your anemone?

??

I NEVER said water changes are difficult. Read this VERY slowly : My
point is water changes are NOT NECESSARY.

You said adding supplements is easier, I don't think it is. Too
complicated to figure out what needs what.

Ok, so you are saying you're stupid. Than don't do it. Leave the
supplement adding for the smart people who don't do water changes.

You did however say that it's expensive to change water. And you say not
necessary as long as you have an adequate skimmer. Nothing else.

And live rock.

bo0ger1 wrote:
Ok, let me clarify. With adequate skimming there is no need to do a
water change.

What is adequate skimming? Just a protein skimmer is all you need...no
live rock


Using a skimmer that produces a consistently good foam. And of course live
rock. Should I also state you need water?


...a skimmer takes out all nitrates?


A skimmer takes out NO nitrates. I am not sure you are ready for where this
would take us in the discussion.

But then what does a skimmer take out? Why so necessary?



I have fish an anenome (doing fine) and live rock.

How do you know it's fine....did it tell you? Are you an LSD user?


He is growing and 'looks' healthy. And eats when I feed him.

Is he going to live as long as anemone's with water changes?



I have read marine books that state that water changes are necessary even
for FOWLR tanks. They are wrong.


Necessary, no, but some form of nitrate export is needed.


Yes it's called denitrification. It doesn't require water changes nor does
it require a skimmer. (You don't want to go there, you're not ready)

You're right, I don't want to go there. It's turning nitrates into
Nitrogen with bacteria, done in live rock and deep sand beds. Whatever
fine.



You are too funny! Laws set forth in books? If I write a book (hey I
even have a Ph.D.) on marine aquariums, does that make what I state laws?


I was speaking of laws, like don't kill people etc. Not referring to
aquarium laws. Wow they give out Ph.D.'s like candy on Halloween huh?


This is called an ad hominem attack. You're getting good at these!


Ya, I am good at them. Must be that I have 0 respect for people that
get Ph.D.'s in anything other than medicine. I find it breeds snooty
people that think they're smart because they were able to spend 10's of
thousands of their parents money while avoiding growing the hell up.


Great! You want to perform water changes because that makes you happy.
Why do you feel the need to put down those that have realized it isn't
necessary?


How, because for 2 years you've been able to keep things alive that are
supposed to live for 10-20 years. Impressive.


Not putting you down because of your not changing water, putting you down
because you blindly state, don't change your water. Which to some may
mean put salt water in a box and put fish in, no need for anything other
than a skimmer, make sure it's an adequate one. Sure throw a coral in
there. Anemone. Sure...now let them stew in their own excrement.


You are putting words in my mouth. I never stated "put salt water in a box
and put fish in, no need for anything other than a skimmer"

Your previous post said all you needed was a skimmer. You mentioned
nothing about live rock. Live rock is not necessary to keep fish
alive...water is.

You must claim that all you need to do is put salt water in a box and put
fish in, no need for anything other than performing water changes.

I stated with adequate skimming and live rock no need to do water changes.

no you never mentioned live rock before now.


Nope you said "But when marine biologists highly touted as the best in a
particular field write books. "
Are all marine biologists that write books highly touted? How do you
know the difference?

I know the difference because they sell many books, are reviewed highly
and people follow their advice with great success.


You are missing my point. People also DO NOT follow their advice and have
great success. What is your point?

Just you and the other guy, who apparently are either too poor or too
afraid to try coral raising. You should be making pretty good scratch
though Doctor.



You, Dr. are spewing things as fact that you have no concept of. Have you
done a study of life expectancy of fish who live without water changes vs.
those that get changed?


Have you? If you haven't than you can not claim they require it. My fish
and anenome are doing fine (close to two years with no water change).


The books I've read indicate experiments where folks didn't change water
and things went worse. So no, I haven't but authors of books have.

Or do you just assume because your fish are alive that they are healthy.


No. I assume they are healthy because they are alive AND look healthy AND
are disease free. They also eat when I feed them (one indication of heath
for an animal).


You've drawn blood and tested for disease?


Many people have NOT followed their advice and ALSO have had successful
marine aquariums so what's your point?

Reef aquariums? None of you fools have stated to have coral.


Why the need to call me a fool? This is another ad hominem attack. You are
an expert at this.

I'm an expert at a lot of stuff. But I don't claim to be an expert at
things I have no formal education or experience in.


You claim to have a healthy anemone. But for whatever reason, you won't
share pictures, or show your setup, you blindly say don't change your
water.


I don't blindly say it, I just say it.'

Why should you be believed then


Again, what is a picture going to tell you? You seem to have a real blind
spot here.

A picture will indicate that you aren't lying to prove a point, for one.
It would also indicate that contrary to popular belief that water
changes make no difference in water color or clarity. It would show how
much live rock you have. It would show the bucket sitting by your
aquarium that you secretly use to actually change your water.


Well Dr. that makes you an irresponsible jerk.


Ad hominem attack.
Nope, just a regular attack that time. I did attack you, but after
answering your argument.




I said it's cool not to change your water? Oh wait, no I didn't. I am
saying its is NOT necessary.

Meaning it's ok...which is the way I was using cool. Point me to 1 single
publication that says "It's not necessary to change your water".


Haven't seen one. I'm not saying they don't exist. I am speaking from
experience. I already told you that the books I have read recommend water
changes.

So you, admittedly, not having any education in marine biology, nor any
real theory to support your claim should probably go write a book and
make trillions....then maybe you could afford a camera.



AND again DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ.

So how do I determine whether to believe you. The books I read had
pictures. You don't.


You don't have to believe me Pat. And I don't care if you do.

But I so desperately want to. I just am not a man of faith, and your
story is fishier than the one about Jesus and pals.



Probably for the same reason you do it.

Which is, to follow the herd. That makes a lot of sense for an
organization that has nowhere near the amount of money they need any
damned way.


Yep.

Well dammit, I'm going to stop giving them money, wasteful *******s.



I know nothing about maintaining aquariums at a zoo and never claimed I
did. We are talking about home scale marine aquariums.

Why is that different than a zoo, you'd think there'd be less need to
change the water there, more volume, more stable...etc.


They have MORE water volume, therefore they have MORE water volume to skim.
They might also be over stocking their aquariums. More fish/aquarium = more
interest from visitors = more money. Not sure people would enjoy a poorly
stocked aquarium at a zoo.

So there is another variable, you have to stock to a certain
limit....what is that limit.


You are trying to compare apples and oranges by bringing up zoo aquariums.

No, granny smith and braeburn's maybe.


Where did you get your knowledge on home aquariums. Personal research,
you just got lazy and stopped doing water changes so you now decided for
the world that it's not necessary.


Yeah, that's it. I'm lazy. I'm also smart enough to know that water
changes are NOT necessary.

Smarts has nothing to do with it. Knowledge is not a measure of
intelligence. But seriously, where did you get your knowledge?


I'm a troll because I'm a jerk? Why don't you just call me Hitler and
get it over with.

Ok, Hitler, hail.


Am I wrong because I'm a jerk?

You're wrong because, apart from your word, you provide no evidence that
your theory holds water(notice the cute pun, damn I'm witty).


You're correct here.

So the people opposing your viewpoint provide evidence...and you think
people should just believe you based on the fact that what? you're
cute? You're a Dr.? If you don't want to give any basis for your
claim, then do not make your claim. It's an unpopular viewpoint and you
should be prepared to defend it with something other than I'm smart and
it works.



Additionally you take your theory and extend it to animals that you have
no experience keeping. So what if you are wrong, what if corals need
water changes. Is it possible? Please prove to me that they don't.


Prove to me that they do.

K, do me a favor, go to the LFS and buy an Agopora coral. Put it in
your tank, draw a good picture of it, I know you don't have a camera.
Then wait 1 year, draw a picture of it again, email me the pictures.



If your reply is, I never mentioned corals. Then you should get out of
the REEFs newsgroup and post in the fish only one


Are you an LSD user?

Not currently. Why, got some?


No, because you sound like you are hallucinating.
ad hominem attack...tsk tsk Dr.



On what issue do I hollow the herd? Because I sleep at night? or eat
food? This is not following the herd Pat.

Sure it is. Or you ever take a quick peek at a TV show because it's
pretty popular. Ever read a movie review to see what people are saying
about them. Ever read a customer review before buying something online.
Ever not stolen stuff from a store because the herd decided you shouldn't.


Hey, if you want to do water changes because "everyone else" is doing them.
Have at it.

That's not why I do them. I do them to replenish nutrients and remove
waste.



Read the label on the trace elements bottle you purchase.

Which of the millions of available bottles do I purchase


Follow the herd. See what they use. You are good at this.

Which do you use? The herd does water changes to avoid these.


I don't have coral. Never claimed to.

What do you put in for your anemone?



Your anemone doesn't require trace elements? I thought they needed
iodine and such to thrive. Maybe that's another breakthrough for you.
??


I NEVER said water changes are difficult. Read this VERY slowly : My
point is water changes are NOT NECESSARY.

You said adding supplements is easier, I don't think it is. Too
complicated to figure out what needs what.


Ok, so you are saying you're stupid. Than don't do it. Leave the
supplement adding for the smart people who don't do water changes.
What suppliments do you use? I could ask the LFS, but they're in it for
the blood money, Wayne could tell me, but apparently he's on LSD too.
Who do I believe.



You did however say that it's expensive to change water. And you say not
necessary as long as you have an adequate skimmer. Nothing else.


And live rock.
Live rock is expensive. And not necessary to keep fish. I could buy
many years worth of salt for what I spent on liverock. Therefore making
nitrate export by hand rather than thru live rock. Changing water is
not expensive.

A skimmer takes out NO nitrates. I am not sure you are ready for where
this
would take us in the discussion.

But then what does a skimmer take out? Why so necessary?

Skimmers remove proteins. In particular proteins and other molecules that
have a hydrophilic and hydrophobic portion (surfactants).

He is growing and 'looks' healthy. And eats when I feed him.

Is he going to live as long as anemone's with water changes?

So far so good. I will keep you posted. How long do yours live?

Yes it's called denitrification. It doesn't require water changes nor
does it require a skimmer. (You don't want to go there, you're not
ready)

You're right, I don't want to go there. It's turning nitrates into
Nitrogen with bacteria, done in live rock and deep sand beds. Whatever
fine.

This is called an ad hominem attack. You're getting good at these!


Ya, I am good at them. Must be that I have 0 respect for people that get
Ph.D.'s in anything other than medicine.

Are you claiming to know what my Ph.D. is in?


I find it breeds snooty people that think they're smart because they were
able to spend 10's of thousands of their parents money while avoiding
growing the hell up.

Dude you are wrong on so many levels it's funny. Ph.D.'s (including mine)
are free! All you have to do is get accepted into the program (good luck to
you!) and work as a TA. They provide you with a stipend and pay your
tuition.

Great! You want to perform water changes because that makes you happy.
Why do you feel the need to put down those that have realized it isn't
necessary?


How, because for 2 years you've been able to keep things alive that are
supposed to live for 10-20 years. Impressive.

I will keep you posted.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never stated "put salt water in a
box and put fish in, no need for anything other than a skimmer"

Your previous post said all you needed was a skimmer. You mentioned
nothing about live rock. Live rock is not necessary to keep fish
alive...water is.

My live rock is necessary. It is helps with denitrification.

I stated with adequate skimming and live rock no need to do water
changes.

no you never mentioned live rock before now.

Ok. Lets clear it up now. I left it out because I thought it was
understood that people with marine aquariums usually have live rock. My
mistake.


You are missing my point. People also DO NOT follow their advice and
have great success. What is your point?

Just you and the other guy, who apparently are either too poor or too
afraid to try coral raising.
Are you sure it is just us two?

You should be making pretty good scratch though Doctor.

How is this relevant?

Have you? If you haven't than you can not claim they require it. My
fish and anenome are doing fine (close to two years with no water
change).


The books I've read indicate experiments where folks didn't change water
and things went worse. So no, I haven't but authors of books have.

References?

I guess you could say for the past two years I have been doing an experiment
in my tank then. So far no problems! Many others also have success with
no water changes. Not just me.


No. I assume they are healthy because they are alive AND look healthy
AND are disease free. They also eat when I feed them (one indication of
heath for an animal).


You've drawn blood and tested for disease?

Have you on yours? I am referring to visible signs of disease.

Why the need to call me a fool? This is another ad hominem attack. You
are an expert at this.

I'm an expert at a lot of stuff. But I don't claim to be an expert at
things I have no formal education or experience in.

Nor do I. I never said I was an expert. This is a red herring.

I don't blindly say it, I just say it.'

Why should you be believed then

??


Again, what is a picture going to tell you? You seem to have a real
blind spot here.

A picture will indicate that you aren't lying to prove a point, for one.
It would also indicate that contrary to popular belief that water changes
make no difference in water color or clarity. It would show how much live
rock you have. It would show the bucket sitting by your aquarium that you
secretly use to actually change your water.

You are too funny.


Haven't seen one. I'm not saying they don't exist. I am speaking from
experience. I already told you that the books I have read recommend
water changes.

So you, admittedly, not having any education in marine biology, nor any
real theory to support your claim should probably go write a book and make
trillions....then maybe you could afford a camera.

Ok.

They have MORE water volume, therefore they have MORE water volume to
skim. They might also be over stocking their aquariums. More
fish/aquarium = more interest from visitors = more money. Not sure
people would enjoy a poorly stocked aquarium at a zoo.

So there is another variable, you have to stock to a certain limit....what
is that limit.

You have to watch your nitrate levels. If too high than you are over
stocked OR you have inadequate live rock/live sand for denitrification.


You are trying to compare apples and oranges by bringing up zoo
aquariums.

No, granny smith and braeburn's maybe.

??

Yeah, that's it. I'm lazy. I'm also smart enough to know that water
changes are NOT necessary.

Smarts has nothing to do with it. Knowledge is not a measure of
intelligence. But seriously, where did you get your knowledge?

Experience.

You're correct here.

So the people opposing your viewpoint provide evidence...and you think
people should just believe you based on the fact that what?

I never said people have to believe me.

you're cute? You're a Dr.? If you don't want to give any basis for your
claim, then do not make your claim. It's an unpopular viewpoint and you
should be prepared to defend it with something other than I'm smart and it
works.

Why do I have to defend it? Why are you so defensive?

Prove to me that they do.

K, do me a favor, go to the LFS and buy an Agopora coral. Put it in your
tank, draw a good picture of it, I know you don't have a camera. Then wait
1 year, draw a picture of it again, email me the pictures.

??

Hey, if you want to do water changes because "everyone else" is doing
them. Have at it.

That's not why I do them. I do them to replenish nutrients and remove
waste.

Skimmers remove waste, the rest is removed via the denitrification process.
What waste are you having problems removing if you don't do water changes?

Follow the herd. See what they use. You are good at this.

Which do you use? The herd does water changes to avoid these.

Kent marine.

Your anemone doesn't require trace elements? I thought they needed iodine
and such to thrive. Maybe that's another breakthrough for you.

I use Kent marine essential elements.


Ok, so you are saying you're stupid. Than don't do it. Leave the
supplement adding for the smart people who don't do water changes.
What suppliments do you use? I could ask the LFS, but they're in it for
the blood money, Wayne could tell me, but apparently he's on LSD too. Who
do I believe.

You must believe the Herd. They can't possible be wrong.

And live rock.
Live rock is expensive. And not necessary to keep fish. I could buy many
years worth of salt for what I spent on liverock. Therefore making
nitrate export by hand rather than thru live rock. Changing water is not
expensive.

You don't have live rock?

* Pat wrote, On 11/12/2006 11:53 AM:


bo0ger1 wrote:

No thanks. I don't believe in just blindly following the herd.

Sure you do, just not on this issue.


You've heard of troll herds, right? Very dangerous around bridges.

I knew it, they are jumping on you as they did with me for opposing
senseless water changes.
Apparently they are concern of not being in the bandwagon and to be
considered different because they don't do what everyone else do.
Water changes may become necessary but as A LAST RESORT if you find your
water has accumulated too many toxins that your filters aren't able to
catch, then. But as you well put it out, it disrupts the entire water
chemistry.
About trace elements, well they are included in many food sources and as
they imply, THE SHOULD REMAIN AS TRACE ELEMENTS. Plus, they are recycled by
your fish and the unused elements deposited in your water column. A fish
don't need to retain trace elements more that the needed ones, this amount
is constant and cycled.
iy

"bo0ger1" .@. wrote in message
...
You were implying that it can't be done because you have not seen any
pictures from non-water changers.
Nope, I wasn't implying anything. But your word doesn't mean anything to
me

You were implying it. If my word doesn't mean anything to you than why
are you responding to me?

Well if you had corals flourishing and anemones frolicking, it would be a
better picture than say dead things floating in the water.

I can assure you that I do not keep an aquarium with dead animals floating
around. Why would anyone do that?

Now you agree that having a healthy aquarium with no water changes is
possible.?.

I agree that anything is possible, but many many more people than you and
your friend say that water changes are necessary with the current
technology.

This is called FOLLOWING the HERD. Follow away!

Nor do you wish you to? You agree that you know nothing about chemistry
and you are content not knowing any chemistry? And yet, you are
convinced you need to do water changes?

I'm not convinced I do, but I'm further from convinced that I
don't....you telling me is not good enough. Seeing some kind of setup,
anything might prove your point, but you have nothing, at all, just your
word.

I have a lot more than my word. I have a healthy aquarium. YOU have
nothing more than my word.

All of the books I have read also stated to do water changes. Hmmmm.
Why is my aquarium doing so well? Oh, wait I know, they are WRONG.
Do you believe everything you read?

I don't believe everything I read, for instance I believe very little of
what you type.

Good. I'm glad the irony wasn't wasted.

But when marine biologists highly touted as the best in a particular field
write books.

Really? Everyone that writes a book on marine aquariums is the best in
their field? Do you REALLY believe this?

Or when zoos and aquariums do water changes, I figure it best to believe
them instead of a person whom I know nothing more than being a troll on a
newsgroup.

I'm a troll because I don't do water changes?

Why do you do water changes?

It makes a difference in the lives of my creatures

In what way? Do they smile more?

Do I know that if I didn't I would be killing my inverts? no...


Than why do it?

Cuz it's the thing to do. All the kids are doing it...you should try.

No thanks. I don't believe in just blindly following the herd.


but water changes are more than nitrate export, they also replace
important elements that get used by corals(from my understanding).


Like what?

I hear iodine, strontium other crap, again, not a chemist, don't want to
be. And you say, then add it back in. And I say, I don't know what to
add, so I'll buy a bucket of salt for $50 every year, instead of spending
$1000's in suppliments.

You can add trace elements. It is much cheaper and easier than doing a
water change. Doing water changes also puts more stress on your
inhabitants.

$1000's in supplements? Where do you shop? Waynes?