re.Koi Food

This is from one of the KHA's on the KHA board. Unfortunately it came to me
in Adobe, so if anyone would like the whole thing, let me know
and I'll E it to you, as there are a whole bunch of
threaded messages. This was on the NI board in 2004 so hopefully a formal
report will be coming out soon.

Even though it isn't about catfish & trout chow, it does bring up some
interesting points regarding feeding/overfeeding/improper feeding.
~ jan

Fatty Liver /Metabolic Syndrome Disease in Koi -- Research
Posted by thom blischok on 11/26/2004, 6:41 am

Fellow NI'ers,
We have just completed a one year study effort regarding the feeding of koi
and have some rather interesting results.
The hypothesis we were trying to validate is one I've personally felt was
unanswered in all for the literature I've read to date -- and that
hypothesis centered on the idea of "growing koi" at faster metabolically
normal rates -- that is "bulking up" to grow them fast and big. We will be
publishing the study in a couple of months and I thought that I'd provide
some insights that might be interesting for us all to reflect on as we
determine the rate of growth that we create as a result of our feeding
regimen.

First, lets talk about the groups of koi we used in the study. Each group
had twenty five koi randomly selected -- these koi were pulled form my mud
ponds (three year olds) and placed into large 100,000 gallon flow through
cement ponds. Group A was fed amounts based on normal body weights
calculated at the time of placing the koi into the ponds and recalculated
each month. Group B was fed five times normal rates with the idea of
"bulking them up" as fast as possible (they were fed five times per day
versus two times per day for Group A).

Group A was forced to forage for much of their food and Group B seemed to
be satisfied from an appetite perspective almost always.
Water temps were in the 75 degree range and water quality was optimal
throughout the entire test period.

To summarize a couple of results, Group B grew at least 50% more than Group
A -- typically exhibited by a huge underbelly (this if course was supported
by fish deemed to have the proper genetics to grow to large sizes). Group A
was quite active throughout the day foraging for food while group B was
quite sedentary waiting to be fed.

We did quarterly blood tests on all glucose, cholesterol, triglycerides,
amylase, and lipase. We fed a food base that was 45% protein (basically a
high growth diet) with 10% fat, 15% carbohydrates, 10% fiber, 9% ash, 1%
vitamins, and 10% moisture. We calculated the total energy for this diet at
approximately 350 kcal/100 grams of food.

As we began to come to the end of the study we wanted to understand the
effect of "Bulking up" and we learned a lot (of which I'll share some
initial findings that will be published later). First, upon doing
necropsies on several koi from both groups we clearly saw very distinct
differences in blood chemistry (the blood samples were taken before we
euthanized the koi).

The Group B fish had serum glucose levels above 160mg/dl (norms of 30 -
120mg/dl) -- in some cases approaching 180 mg/dl; cholesterol was in Group
B over 490 mg/dl (norms 200mg - 400mg/dl); and Triglycerides -- some over
600 (approaching 700) mg/dl,(norms 100mg - 500mg/dl).

As we got into the body cavity we saw significant and numerous adipose
deposits in the gut areas -- several quite hard -- almost calcified. As we
began to look at the organs we saw fat deposits in the liver as well as
some nephrotoxcicity in the kidneys (also in the liver). We saw a
build up of fat around the heart and a general observation that the
internal organs were not getting quite the same blood supply as the Group A
fish -- the coloration of the Group B fish was slightly more of a dullish
red/brown versus a shiny more red appearance. From my perspective the
coloration differences directly reflects organ optimal health.

As part of the research effort we basically diagnosed the koi in Group B as
having a human disease -- we call it metabolic syndrome -- that is -- the
blood sugars were quite high from overfeeding, cholesterol was elevated,
triglycerides were abnormal, lots of fat deposits especially in the gut
areas, and finally organ function was clearly deteriorated.
The reason we embarked upon this effort was primarily driven by the old age
debate of "should we grow koi as fast as we can (like the food fish farmers
do) or should we be more conservative in our approach.
As many of you know in our ponds we have worked hard to follow the more
conservative approach and have been satisfied with the results to date.
So without releasing all of our findings yet (we still have lots of data to
validate) I thought I'd give some "food for thought" to this board on
feeding habits and the actual result of overfeeding (in THIS STUDY).
Thoughts from a simple koi keeper.....
thom....
----
Posted by Brett on 11/26/2004, 11:57 pm, in reply to " Fatty Liver
/Metabolic Syndrome Disease in Koi -- Research "

Was either group more mature and the females more gravid?
Which group might offer better spawning success? I find these results
interesting. Something seen by local alligator breeders is that "well fed"
and lazy gators tend to have poor reproductive success in semi-captivity
compared to better exercised and less regularly fed gators.
The goals of bringing a koi into show form, that of health and longevity,
and preparing them for reproductive success (not just spawning but also
gamete quality) might require differing approaches, especially with respect
to diet.

In this study, what is the ultimate goal with respect to desired outcome?
Enlightening study.
Brett

effect of two protocols on gonad development?
Posted by thom blischok on 11/27/2004, 1:13 am, in reply to "effect of two
protocols on gonad development?"

Brett,
We had a combination of males and females and did not even consider the
spawning effect.

We simply pulled out of the pond some of our spawn from previous years that
were now three year olds.

Can't answer the question which group might have better spawning success
although from what I saw during necropsy, my guess would be the Group which
was fed a more conservative diet. My guess is that the "fat group" would
not spawned as well. Lots and lots of fat buildup in the stomach cavity.
Interesting on the alligators.

The desired outcome was quite simple. I wanted to know the actual
scientific effect of feeding a long term high growth diet. In my own mind
I've always questioned the rationale of "fattening them up" for the show --
that is growing them big -- fast.

In the case of the koi in my ponds, my feeding regimen has centered on slow
consistent growth with approximately 60% of the daily food content coming
from foraging the walls and bottom of the pond.

From the NI perspective, I thought the study might spark a thought or two
about the massive feeding of food (any type) and its potential long term
effect on koi health.

As I have continued to explore koi shows, one of the awards I'd sure like
to see is an award based on longevity and health. From my perspective far
too much emphasis is on the "beauty queen" part of the show and not enough
on koi that have been grown with great husbandry techniques.
Might be an interesting kind of recognition for a koi keeper -- in my
humble opinion -- probably one of the most important recognitions that a
koi keeper can get is to be recognized as a keeper of the bloodline over
time -- not just the owner of a koi for the moment.

What I personally continue to find ever challenging is keeping great koi
looking great in "CEMENT CLOSED LOOP PONDS". I now know that this goal is
and will continue to be something to strive for on a regular basis.
thom......

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
This is from one of the KHA's on the KHA board. Unfortunately it came to
me
in Adobe, so if anyone would like the whole thing, let me know
and I'll E it to you, as there are a whole bunch of
threaded messages. This was on the NI board in 2004 so hopefully a formal
report will be coming out soon.

Even though it isn't about catfish & trout chow, it does bring up some
interesting points regarding feeding/overfeeding/improper feeding.
~ jan

Interesting study and thanks for posting it. It's a shame that such
studies are still needed, as common wisdom should prevail that over-eating,
eating crap food, and excessively processed or dubious ingredients is bad,
no matter the species.
But, we are still an insane culture that accepts feedlot beef fattened on
its own diseased kind and chicken excrement, and thinks there is an
acceptable level of Bisphenol A leaching in plastic baby bottles.

Fatty Liver /Metabolic Syndrome Disease in Koi -- Research
Posted by thom blischok on 11/26/2004, 6:41 am

Fellow NI'ers,
We have just completed a one year study effort regarding the feeding of
koi
and have some rather interesting results.
The hypothesis we were trying to validate is one I've personally felt was
unanswered in all for the literature I've read to date -- and that
hypothesis centered on the idea of "growing koi" at faster metabolically
normal rates -- that is "bulking up" to grow them fast and big. We will be
publishing the study in a couple of months and I thought that I'd provide
some insights that might be interesting for us all to reflect on as we
determine the rate of growth that we create as a result of our feeding
regimen.


snip

"~ jan" wrote in message
...

Brevity snip

What I personally continue to find ever challenging is keeping great koi
looking great in "CEMENT CLOSED LOOP PONDS". I now know that this goal is
and will continue to be something to strive for on a regular basis.
thom......
=========================
Excellent article on why *overfeeding* is so dangerous. Also, the fish in
the study, aside from being so overfed they were lethargic, didn't have a 4
or 5 month winter fast. Not that that would have done them much good after
being stuffed to the gills (no pun intended) for months.

I don't think many of us have these "Cement closed loop ponds" or the
"cement flow-through ponds" either.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"~ jan" wrote in message
...

Brevity snip

What I personally continue to find ever challenging is keeping great koi
looking great in "CEMENT CLOSED LOOP PONDS". I now know that this goal
is
and will continue to be something to strive for on a regular basis.
thom......
=========================
Excellent article on why *overfeeding* is so dangerous.

Or by extrapolation, feeding inapropriate foods meant to fatten fish for
the platter to sell to unsuspecting Tennesee rubes. It's unhealthy.

Also, the fish in
the study, aside from being so overfed they were lethargic, didn't have a
4
or 5 month winter fast. Not that that would have done them much good
after
being stuffed to the gills (no pun intended) for months.

I don't think many of us have these "Cement closed loop ponds" or the
"cement flow-through ponds" either.

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"~ jan" wrote in message
...

Brevity snip

What I personally continue to find ever challenging is keeping great
koi
looking great in "CEMENT CLOSED LOOP PONDS". I now know that this goal
is
and will continue to be something to strive for on a regular basis.
thom......
=========================
Excellent article on why *overfeeding* is so dangerous.

Or by extrapolation, feeding inapropriate foods meant to fatten fish for
the platter to sell to unsuspecting Tennesee rubes. It's unhealthy.
========================
It's not inappropriate to horribly overfeed fish if it's meant to grow them
fast for food.

BTW, I'm not a Tennessee so the idiotic childish insult means nothing to me.
I'm sure any Tennesseans here will appreciate your rude and inappropriate
remark. ;-)
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"~ jan" wrote in message
...

Brevity snip

What I personally continue to find ever challenging is keeping great
koi
looking great in "CEMENT CLOSED LOOP PONDS". I now know that this
goal
is
and will continue to be something to strive for on a regular basis.
thom......
=========================
Excellent article on why *overfeeding* is so dangerous.

Or by extrapolation, feeding inapropriate foods meant to fatten fish
for
the platter to sell to unsuspecting Tennesee rubes. It's unhealthy.
========================
It's not inappropriate to horribly overfeed fish if it's meant to grow
them
fast for food.

But, you're not growing koi for food. Neither was the study. Your comment
is irrelevant. See the articles below for the relevant issues of your
feeding the wrong diet and your selling diseased fish.

http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...p?article_id=8
from Dr. Erik Johnson's Koi Health and Disease
"Catfish chows are for short term use, even in Catfish! And they
eventually cause fatty liver syndrome in Koi."

http://www.avianandexotic.com/csfishes/csf001.pdf.
Practical Koi and Goldfish Medicine
Avian and Exotic Animal Care, PA
Raleigh, North Carolina 919-844-9166
Nutritional Diseases
Fatty liver: Koi raised on a diet that is high in fat, or contains corn and
other low quality, plant-based proteins (e.g. catfish chow) may develop
hepatic lipidosis.

BTW, I'm not a Tennessee so the idiotic childish insult means nothing to
me.
I'm sure any Tennesseans here will appreciate your rude and inappropriate
remark. ;-)

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...
It's not inappropriate to horribly overfeed fish if it's meant to grow
them
fast for food.

But, you're not growing koi for food.

Nor an I overfeeding to the point they're inactive and lethargic as the
pictures of my fish make quite clear.

Neither was the study. Your comment
is irrelevant.

So are your endless insults, not to mention they're a waste of time to read.

See the articles below for the relevant issues of your
feeding the wrong diet and your selling diseased fish.

If I were selling DISEASED fish I would have been put out of business by
now. Feed don't cause disease unless it's rancid or stale.

http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...p?article_id=8
from Dr. Erik Johnson's Koi Health and Disease
"Catfish chows are for short term use, even in Catfish! And they
eventually cause fatty liver syndrome in Koi."

"Which" Catfish chows? My koi are all healthy and for some reason that
upsets a few of you on this group. Maybe you tried the "wrong" catfish/trout
chow if it diseased and killed your fish. Johnson keeps his koi under very
different conditions than we keep ours and I have no idea what brands he
used that sickened his fish.

http://www.avianandexotic.com/csfishes/csf001.pdf.
Practical Koi and Goldfish Medicine
Avian and Exotic Animal Care, PA
Raleigh, North Carolina 919-844-9166
Nutritional Diseases
Fatty liver: Koi raised on a diet that is high in fat, or contains corn
and
other low quality, plant-based proteins (e.g. catfish chow) may develop
hepatic lipidosis.

I'm not using a diet high in fats nor is the protein plant based. I've
posted that before. In fact everyone on this group knows what I've been
feeding for years now - why all of a sudden is it a big deal?

The protein in the feed I'm using is porcine and fish meals. The fat
content is 5.00%. It contains stabilized Vitamin C and I don't overfeed
them.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...
It's not inappropriate to horribly overfeed fish if it's meant to grow
them
fast for food.

But, you're not growing koi for food.

Nor an I overfeeding to the point they're inactive and lethargic as the
pictures of my fish make quite clear.

Without a necropsy on your fish, you really don't know if you're damaging
their livers.

Neither was the study. Your comment
is irrelevant.

So are your endless insults, not to mention they're a waste of time to
read.

See the articles below for the relevant issues of your
feeding the wrong diet and your selling diseased fish.

If I were selling DISEASED fish I would have been put out of business by
now. Feed don't cause disease unless it's rancid or stale.

I see. You have no ability to understand the literature.

http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...p?article_id=8
from Dr. Erik Johnson's Koi Health and Disease
"Catfish chows are for short term use, even in Catfish! And they
eventually cause fatty liver syndrome in Koi."

"Which" Catfish chows? My koi are all healthy and for some reason that
upsets a few of you on this group. Maybe you tried the "wrong"
catfish/trout
chow if it diseased and killed your fish. Johnson keeps his koi under
very
different conditions than we keep ours and I have no idea what brands he
used that sickened his fish.

All of them, Gulley. You already stated yours is high fat at 5%, contains
pork, and curiously haven't identified the brand you use for analysis. You
continuously question all research by DVMs, yet supply nothing but photos as
proof of your own assertions.

http://www.avianandexotic.com/csfishes/csf001.pdf.
Practical Koi and Goldfish Medicine
Avian and Exotic Animal Care, PA
Raleigh, North Carolina 919-844-9166
Nutritional Diseases
Fatty liver: Koi raised on a diet that is high in fat, or contains corn
and
other low quality, plant-based proteins (e.g. catfish chow) may develop
hepatic lipidosis.

I'm not using a diet high in fats nor is the protein plant based. I've
posted that before. In fact everyone on this group knows what I've been
feeding for years now - why all of a sudden is it a big deal?

I don't know the brand you are feeding, so "everyone" does not know. And,
your unsubstantiated claims have been cause for debate for quite some time.
Hardly, "all of a sudden."

The protein in the feed I'm using is porcine and fish meals. The fat
content is 5.00%. It contains stabilized Vitamin C and I don't overfeed
them.

A sampling of koi food shows fat content at 3%, so yours is indeed high
fat. Do koi naturally eat pork? What brand are you feeding?

STFU Stupid

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:36:56 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:


Excellent article on why *overfeeding* is so dangerous. Also, the fish in
the study, aside from being so overfed they were lethargic, didn't have a 4
or 5 month winter fast. Not that that would have done them much good after
being stuffed to the gills (no pun intended) for months.

I don't think many of us have these "Cement closed loop ponds" or the
"cement flow-through ponds" either.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

More info, apparently it isn't just the label, but are the ingredients
digestible by koi. Pasted by permission: ~ jan

Message from: KHA Tech Chris Neaves
Subject: necropsies - fatty livers
Response: Hi Jan,

I will look around for you for pictures - but off the top of my head:
Catfish food - high in carbohydrates : you will not need a picture for this
as koi (carp) loose their body shape with high carbohydrates.

Trout chow : although I am a great believer in feeding koi a high protein
diet the trout food is very high in protein (to high for koi) at around
45%. Too high in oils - around 12- 14%. This will manifest its self in poor
skin quality. Although studies have demonstrated that carp can utilise this
amount of oil. The source of oil is important. Should be marine oil. This
is rich in omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids. Trout food is mostly sinking.

Dog food : low in protein and high in carbohydrates. Protein sources in dog
food are things like meat and bone meal, blood meal, etc These raw material
may be high in protein but they do not contain the correct balance and
quantities of amino acids that koi must have.

Cat Food : slightly higher than dog food in the protein but cat food use
chicken meal as a protein source. The oils in chicken meal are not easily
digested by koi. Also carbohydrate levels too high for koi.

It is critical to get a koi food with the right amino acid levels and
balance not only a certain percentage of protein. It is also imperative to
get foods which have high levels of vitamin C, E and A. Higher than found
in cat and dog food. Vitamin C is excellent for healing and the immune
system it is also a very good natural anit-oxidant. High levels of vitamin
C is an essential component of collagen and thus vital to the connective
tissues as well as the bone matrix and scar tissue healing. Remember the
bone structure of our koi is vital to body shape. Deficiency in vitamin C
leads to a marked reduction in wound healing capacity, skeleton
malformations etc and a tendency to haemorrhage and secondary infections.

Vitamin E is a very good natural anti-oxidant inside the body. Deficiency
in vitamin E results in a wide range of problems. These are mostly
associated with muscle and fat tissue and include muscular dropsy. Again
bear in mind that not only the skeleton but the muscles are an important
factor in body shape of our koi.

Vitamin A shortages produce reduced growth. Vitamin A is essential in
maintaining epithelial cells. The skin of our koi is important for lustre,
it houses the colour patterns etc.

The carbohydrate sources in cat and dog food as well as cat fish food use
cheap raw materials such as yellow maize meal - I believe you called it
corn. The yellow maize meal has pigments that will affect the whites on our
koi. More expensive white, finely ground maize meal is far better.

These are some of the things I can think of regarding the differences
between different food sources.

There is one overall consideration. Placing two koi ponds back to back and
feeding a good koi food to one pond and a dog food to another will result
in very different results. This will occur over time. By the time you have
realised that the koi in the first pond are out growing the second pond and
by the time you realise there is a massive difference in colour, skin
lustre and body shape it is almost too late. The damage has been done.

There was a case in this country some years ago where a manufacture of
trout pellets accidently produce a batch with out adding a vitamin /
mineral pre mix. By the end of the growing season the trout farmers who
used this food noticed significantly less growth than in previous seasons.
Tests were done and the cause found. There were legal repercussions but *
the damage had been done.