Kicking atheist ass

"There are no atheists in foxholes"



U.S. backs churches in atheist fight
July 19, 2007

BY DAVID ASHENFELTER

FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

The U.S. Department of Justice has waded into a legal brawl between a
national atheist group and the Detroit Downtown Development Authority,
which pledged $734,570 in grants to three historic churches in a major
downtown face-lift in time for the 2006 Super Bowl.

A federal judge in Detroit is expected to rule soon in the case, which
could have national implications as to what role the government has in
helping to preserve historic churches.

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American Atheists Inc. sued Detroit's DDA in U.S. District Court last
year, saying the grants violated the constitutional separation between
church and state. The DDA pledged the money to the churches as partial
reimbursement for improvements the churches made to their properties.

"The churches should be paying for those projects, not taxpayers,"
American Atheists President Ellen Johnson told the Free Press last
week. She said the projects amount to public support of religion.

But the development authority, the churches and their recent ally, the
Justice Department's Civil Division, say the funds, which the churches
haven't received, don't involve Bibles, prayer books or religious
indoctrination -- only grants that enabled the churches to participate
in a program that helped downtown property owners spruce up their
property. They compared the grants to communities providing police and
fire protection for churches.

"It's been nightmarish," said the Rev. Kevin Turman, pastor of Second
Baptist Church in Greektown. He and other pastors said that without
the grants, which were due more than a year ago, the churches have
been forced to renegotiate loans, pay more interest and divert funds
from church projects.

The decision is expected to come soon from U.S. District Judge Avern
Cohn. The Justice Department said an adverse ruling could jeopardize
future national preservation grants to historic churches.

Justice Department lawyer Kathryn Wyer told Cohn that the federal
government has long recognized the importance of preserving national
historic church sites. In 2003, she said, the National Parks Service
awarded the Old North Church in Boston a $317,000 grant to restore its
windows.

The church, occupied by an Episcopal congregation, was made famous in
April 1775 when its sexton displayed two lanterns from the steeple to
warn American Revolutionary War patriot Paul Revere that the British
were advancing on Lexington, Mass.

"Federal bricks-and-mortar programs serve important secular interests
in preserving our national heritage and in providing tangible
assistance after major catastrophes," Wyer told Cohn in court papers
in April. She declined to be interviewed.

"Detroit's program, while on a smaller scale than these federal
programs, similarly serves the important purpose of bringing a
downtown area back to life," Wyer added.

American Atheists Inc., a New Jersey nonprofit founded in the 1960s by
the legendary late atheist Madalyn Murray O'Hair, sued the authority
in April 2006, after learning of the grants to Central United
Methodist Church and St. John's Episcopal Church on Woodward near the
Fox Theatre, and Second Baptist Church on Monroe.

The churches used the grant pledges to obtain $1.7 million in loans to
repair their building facades and parking lots and make other
improvements. Property owners were offered 50% reimbursement -- up to
$150,000 for building facades and $30,000 for parking lots -- to
improve their property. The grants, totaling $11.5 million, were
designed to generate $23 million in improvements.

"We agreed to provide assistance to the churches, not as churches but
as property owners," said Art Papapanos, vice president of the Detroit
Economic Growth Corp., which is affiliated with the DDA. "We didn't
differentiate between whether it was religious, political, private or
government entity."

Authority lawyers argued that the church projects complied with U.S.
Supreme Court decisions allowing governments to award grants to
religious organizations if the grants don't advance or inhibit
religion or result in religious indoctrination.

The atheist group was joined in its suit by Steve Walker, a political
science professor at Wayne County Community College, and Dennis
Vatsis, a Detroit lawyer who lives in West Bloomfield.

"I have nothing against these churches, but why would I want to
subsidize them with my tax money?" asked Walker.

Added Vatsis: "I'm just tired of working 60 hours a week to fund these
government schemes to dole out my tax money, particularly when we have
a constitutional prohibition against it."

"bobandcarole" wrote in message
oups.com...
"There are no atheists in foxholes"

There are no atheists.

Atheists believe in God, but just believe in what he is, rather than what
people say about him.

Some people call themselves atheists, but they don't even know what the word
atheist means.

People use words that they don't understand to try to sound impressive.

On Jul 28, 7:55 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"bobandcarole" wrote in message

oups.com...

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

There are no atheists.

Atheists believe in God, but just believe in what he is, rather than what
people say about him.

Some people call themselves atheists, but they don't even know what the word
atheist means.

People use words that they don't understand to try to sound impressive.


In your case, that would be any words.

Atheist - without a deity.

I don't believe in a deity, therefore I am atheist. Simple as that.

--

Lucifer the Unsubtle, EAC Librarian of Dark Tomes of Excessive Evil
and General Purpose Igor

The Anti-Theist, BAAWA Lowly Evilmeister and tamer of the Demon Duck
of Doom

Convicted by Earthquack

"Don't worry, I won't bite.......hard"

"Lucifer" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 28, 7:55 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"bobandcarole" wrote in message

oups.com...

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

There are no atheists.

Atheists believe in God, but just believe in what he is, rather than
what
people say about him.

Some people call themselves atheists, but they don't even know what the
word
atheist means.

People use words that they don't understand to try to sound impressive.


In your case, that would be any words.

Atheist - without a deity.

I don't believe in a deity, therefore I am atheist. Simple as that.

Yes you do, you just don't know what you are saying when you use that word,
deity.

It encompasses more than you now realize.

On Jul 28, 3:22 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"Lucifer" wrote in message

oups.com...



On Jul 28, 7:55 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"bobandcarole" wrote in message

roups.com...

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

There are no atheists.

Atheists believe in God, but just believe in what he is, rather than
what
people say about him.

Some people call themselves atheists, but they don't even know what the
word
atheist means.

People use words that they don't understand to try to sound impressive.

In your case, that would be any words.

Atheist - without a deity.

I don't believe in a deity, therefore I am atheist. Simple as that.

Yes you do, you just don't know what you are saying when you use that word,
deity.

It encompasses more than you now realize.

You are an idiot. Don't you DARE tell us what we do or don't believe.

I do not believe in any kind of god. I have never seen evidence of a
god. If you have evidence, present it.

If you want to redefine the word 'god' so that it no longer means
anything, then go right ahead. We are not obligated to pay any
attention to you.

"Conspiracy of Doves" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 28, 3:22 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"Lucifer" wrote in message

oups.com...



On Jul 28, 7:55 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"bobandcarole" wrote in message

roups.com...

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

There are no atheists.

Atheists believe in God, but just believe in what he is, rather than
what
people say about him.

Some people call themselves atheists, but they don't even know what
the
word
atheist means.

People use words that they don't understand to try to sound
impressive.

In your case, that would be any words.

Atheist - without a deity.

I don't believe in a deity, therefore I am atheist. Simple as that.

Yes you do, you just don't know what you are saying when you use that
word,
deity.

It encompasses more than you now realize.

You are an idiot. Don't you DARE tell us what we do or don't believe.

No need to get your feathers all ruffled. I am only expanding your
horizons, and taking away your fear of what you know may happen if God does
turn out to in fact be real.



I do not believe in any kind of god. I have never seen evidence of a
god. If you have evidence, present it.

If you want to redefine the word 'god' so that it no longer means
anything, then go right ahead. We are not obligated to pay any
attention to you.

God is not redefined. He has always been things atheist believe in, like
light,
intelligence, compassion, and perfection.

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:22:22 -0500, "Mark Earnest"
wrote:


"Lucifer" wrote in message
roups.com...
On Jul 28, 7:55 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"bobandcarole" wrote in message

oups.com...

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

There are no atheists.

Atheists believe in God, but just believe in what he is, rather than
what
people say about him.

Some people call themselves atheists, but they don't even know what the
word
atheist means.

People use words that they don't understand to try to sound impressive.


In your case, that would be any words.

Atheist - without a deity.

I don't believe in a deity, therefore I am atheist. Simple as that.

Yes you do, you just don't know what you are saying when you use that word,
deity.

Well, enlighten us.

It encompasses more than you now realize.

See above.

"Daniel Kolle" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:22:22 -0500, "Mark Earnest"
wrote:


"Lucifer" wrote in message
roups.com...
On Jul 28, 7:55 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"bobandcarole" wrote in message

oups.com...

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

There are no atheists.

Atheists believe in God, but just believe in what he is, rather than
what
people say about him.

Some people call themselves atheists, but they don't even know what
the
word
atheist means.

People use words that they don't understand to try to sound
impressive.


In your case, that would be any words.

Atheist - without a deity.

I don't believe in a deity, therefore I am atheist. Simple as that.

Yes you do, you just don't know what you are saying when you use that
word,
deity.

Well, enlighten us.

A deity, any deity, is a being that transcends the normal. We interact with
them
every time we dwell upon the unusual, the mysterious, or the perfect.


It encompasses more than you now realize.

See above.

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:22:22 -0500, Mark Earnest wrote:

"Lucifer" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 28, 7:55 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"bobandcarole" wrote in message

oups.com...

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

There are no atheists.

Atheists believe in God, but just believe in what he is, rather than
what
people say about him.

Some people call themselves atheists, but they don't even know what
the
word
atheist means.

People use words that they don't understand to try to sound
impressive.


In your case, that would be any words.

Atheist - without a deity.

I don't believe in a deity, therefore I am atheist. Simple as that.

Yes you do, you just don't know what you are saying when you use that
word, deity.

It encompasses more than you now realize.

I'm curious.

Do you understand that every single person in alt.atheism thinks you have
serious mental problems?

Do you get understand that at all?

--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Just because it's inexplicted doesn't mean it's inexplicable."

- Dr. House

Mark Earnest wrote:

"Lucifer" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 28, 7:55 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"bobandcarole" wrote in message

oups.com...

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

There are no atheists.

Atheists believe in God, but just believe in what he is, rather than
what
people say about him.

Some people call themselves atheists, but they don't even know what the
word
atheist means.

People use words that they don't understand to try to sound impressive.


In your case, that would be any words.

Atheist - without a deity.

I don't believe in a deity, therefore I am atheist. Simple as that.

Yes you do, you just don't know what you are saying when you use that word,
deity.

It encompasses more than you now realize.

...............so speaks the typical 'Brainwashed one'