Starting a reef tank

Hey gang, just wanted to get some opinions...here's the setup my shop
recommended to me...
I've been dealing with them for awhile, and have run several tanks,
just never gone with reef (and not sal****er in ages):
72 galloon oceaning reef ready bow tank with stand, top etc
plumbing kit
oceaning sump
pum
protein skimmer
esu power compact light
versatop
heater/thermometer
Salt/hydrometer/testkit

Anything I'm forgetting?

Mitch

"Big Habeeb" wrote in message oups.com...
Hey gang, just wanted to get some opinions...here's the setup my shop
recommended to me...
I've been dealing with them for awhile, and have run several tanks,
just never gone with reef (and not sal****er in ages):
72 galloon oceaning reef ready bow tank with stand, top etc
plumbing kit
oceaning sump
pum
protein skimmer
esu power compact light
versatop
heater/thermometer
Salt/hydrometer/testkit

Anything I'm forgetting?

What are your plans to this tank?
Will you have soft corals? SPS? LPS?

How do you plan to deal with nutrient export?
Have you familiarized yourself with the most often used systems?

HAve you got in your hands any book on the subject?

Yes, purchase some books on reefkeeping before you
buy any aquarium stuff. Many people don't take this
advice, but it's advice that is much worth taking.

Wayne Sallee


Pszemol wrote on 9/24/2007 7:26 PM:
"Big Habeeb" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hey gang, just wanted to get some opinions...here's the setup my shop
recommended to me...
I've been dealing with them for awhile, and have run several tanks,
just never gone with reef (and not sal****er in ages):
72 galloon oceaning reef ready bow tank with stand, top etc
plumbing kit
oceaning sump
pum
protein skimmer
esu power compact light
versatop
heater/thermometer
Salt/hydrometer/testkit

Anything I'm forgetting?

What are your plans to this tank?
Will you have soft corals? SPS? LPS?

How do you plan to deal with nutrient export?
Have you familiarized yourself with the most often used systems?

HAve you got in your hands any book on the subject?

I'm not a big fan of bow fronts. They distort the
view, and make cleaning with an algae magnet quite
difficult.

You need to add up the total watts of lighting that
you will be going with. You want 3 to 6 watts of
light per gallon. 3 being only good for low light
stuff like soft corals and mushrooms, 5 being good,
and 6 being great.

I assume this has a built in overflow, and not a
hang-on-the-back overflow???

"ocening sump"? Probably "Oceanic sump", and
probably an Oceanic tank. Oceanic reef ready tanks
have the built in overflow. Yes you want the built
in overflow, but you might want to opt for the flat
front instead of the bow front. Also lighting is
easier to work with over standard shaped tanks.

Go with a fine calcium sand, not calcium gravel.

I'm to lazy to look it up, but I think that the
oceanic sump comes with a wet dry filter. You would
be better off with a plain style sump/aquarium, and
make a refugium style filtration with protein skimmer.

Also, some more advice is to window shop, window
shop, window shop. Not for the point of getting the
cheapest price, but so that you will be familiar
with what's out there and you will have a better
aptitude to make the right purchasing decision.

Wayne Sallee


Big Habeeb wrote on 9/24/2007 6:07 PM:
Hey gang, just wanted to get some opinions...here's the setup my shop
recommended to me...
I've been dealing with them for awhile, and have run several tanks,
just never gone with reef (and not sal****er in ages):
72 galloon oceaning reef ready bow tank with stand, top etc
plumbing kit
oceaning sump
pum
protein skimmer
esu power compact light
versatop
heater/thermometer
Salt/hydrometer/testkit

Anything I'm forgetting?

Mitch

Big Habeeb wrote:

Anything I'm forgetting?

Sounds good for a start. Need live rock, salt water, and eventually various test
kits, but the hardware you have lined up is ok. You might need better lighting
if you want to keep hard corals.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

On Sep 24, 11:10 pm, George Patterson wrote:
Big Habeeb wrote:
Anything I'm forgetting?

Sounds good for a start. Need live rock, salt water, and eventually various test
kits, but the hardware you have lined up is ok. You might need better lighting
if you want to keep hard corals.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

Allow me to rephrase slightly: I've done a ton of reading on it, and
in concept understand how to go about setting it up. I guess at this
point its more the order of operations I'm confused by...lets fast
forward to tomorrow: my tank is built, filter setup, no water in it,
no substrate, no rock, but it's ready to get started.
What is first? Can live rock survive out of water for awhile? Can it
survive in fresh water for awhile? By awhile I mean, while I add the
water, then add the salt mix...or do I need to mix the salt water and
add it in smaller quantities (i.e. from a bucket)? How does one
attach the live rock to each other? Do I just stack it or can it be
glued, as I've read of doing with other corals to attach TO the live
rock...also, I'm assuming that I need a sand substrate first and I've
heard this referred to as "live sand"...same questions apply there,
meaning can it survive out of water, in fresh water etc

Any help that can be provided would be appreciated. I'm sure the guy
at the shop will be happy to answer all of this for me when I go to
pick up my setup...but I'd like to go in educated.
Mitch

On Sep 25, 10:12 am, Big Habeeb wrote:
On Sep 24, 11:10 pm, George Patterson wrote:

Big Habeeb wrote:
Anything I'm forgetting?

Sounds good for a start. Need live rock, salt water, and eventually various test
kits, but the hardware you have lined up is ok. You might need better lighting
if you want to keep hard corals.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

Allow me to rephrase slightly: I've done a ton of reading on it, and
in concept understand how to go about setting it up. I guess at this
point its more the order of operations I'm confused by...lets fast
forward to tomorrow: my tank is built, filter setup, no water in it,
no substrate, no rock, but it's ready to get started.
What is first? Can live rock survive out of water for awhile? Can it
survive in fresh water for awhile? By awhile I mean, while I add the
water, then add the salt mix...or do I need to mix the salt water and
add it in smaller quantities (i.e. from a bucket)? How does one
attach the live rock to each other? Do I just stack it or can it be
glued, as I've read of doing with other corals to attach TO the live
rock...also, I'm assuming that I need a sand substrate first and I've
heard this referred to as "live sand"...same questions apply there,
meaning can it survive out of water, in fresh water etc

Any help that can be provided would be appreciated. I'm sure the guy
at the shop will be happy to answer all of this for me when I go to
pick up my setup...but I'd like to go in educated.
Mitch

I think I was able to find my answers on the live rock - gotta get the
thing up and running with sal****er first. So can the sand handle
having freshwater put onto it and then salt added, or is that the same
kind of scenario?
Also, can the live rock be glued/drilled as the dead corals I used in
cichlid keeping were?
Thanks again all,
Mitch

Sounds like you have LOTS more reading to do.

The questions you have posed are very basic and you need to have a
better understanding of what you are doing before you proceed further!


On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:32:48 -0700, Big Habeeb
wrote:

On Sep 25, 10:12 am, Big Habeeb wrote:
On Sep 24, 11:10 pm, George Patterson wrote:

Big Habeeb wrote:
Anything I'm forgetting?

Sounds good for a start. Need live rock, salt water, and eventually various test
kits, but the hardware you have lined up is ok. You might need better lighting
if you want to keep hard corals.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

Allow me to rephrase slightly: I've done a ton of reading on it, and
in concept understand how to go about setting it up. I guess at this
point its more the order of operations I'm confused by...lets fast
forward to tomorrow: my tank is built, filter setup, no water in it,
no substrate, no rock, but it's ready to get started.
What is first? Can live rock survive out of water for awhile? Can it
survive in fresh water for awhile? By awhile I mean, while I add the
water, then add the salt mix...or do I need to mix the salt water and
add it in smaller quantities (i.e. from a bucket)? How does one
attach the live rock to each other? Do I just stack it or can it be
glued, as I've read of doing with other corals to attach TO the live
rock...also, I'm assuming that I need a sand substrate first and I've
heard this referred to as "live sand"...same questions apply there,
meaning can it survive out of water, in fresh water etc

Any help that can be provided would be appreciated. I'm sure the guy
at the shop will be happy to answer all of this for me when I go to
pick up my setup...but I'd like to go in educated.
Mitch

I think I was able to find my answers on the live rock - gotta get the
thing up and running with sal****er first. So can the sand handle
having freshwater put onto it and then salt added, or is that the same
kind of scenario?
Also, can the live rock be glued/drilled as the dead corals I used in
cichlid keeping were?
Thanks again all,
Mitch

"Big Habeeb" wrote in message ps.com...
I think I was able to find my answers on the live rock - gotta get the
thing up and running with sal****er first. So can the sand handle
having freshwater put onto it and then salt added, or is that the same
kind of scenario?

All living critters in a reef tank will die in freshwater pretty quickly.
They will also die without water pretty quickly, but some of them
can survive in moist environment in some rock crevices, so
live rock is shipped without water, and what dies, it dies...
What survives the trip starts growing in your tank.

The sand bottom of the tank is done in couple different ways.
Also, what people call "live sand" could be quite different
depending who do you talk...
Some LFS sell "live sand" in plastic bag in moist state...
This is not what I would call live sand - this is rather wet sand.
It will have some bacteria left on the sand, but no living
creatures which could be beneficial in the reef tank: mini stars,
crustaceans, micro snails, etc.. For such animals to be present
in the live sand you need to fly it from the reef on the airplane.
Exactly like live rock is shipped. Day or two out of the ocean.
Not longer...

How is the "live sand" in the plastic bag made?
It is dead sand, sterilized to not stink, then a bacteria starter
is added and the bag is sealed. You pay big bugs for a wet
sand which you can make yourself at home buing some dry
playsand in Home Depot and a small bottle of bacteria starter.

So the order would be this way:
You make up sal****er in a clean, plastic bucket or two.
Let it stand until everything is mixed well and not cloudy (overnight).
You make enough water to cover the sand... lets say 10 gallons.
You put a layer of dry sand on the bottom of the tank...
Using known technique from freshwater tanks you place
a dinner plate or a foil bag on the surface of the sand and
pour water in the tank to not disturb sand too much...

If you are going with REAL live sand layer on top of the
dry sand as a seeding method, now you would put a layer
of live sand. Also try to disturb the sand as little as possible.

Then you prepare more water and add untill the tank is
maybe 70% full... You need room for the live rock volume.

Before you add live rock you keep the tank with just sand
and water for couple of days to make sand settle a bit.

If your dry sand was not clean and have a lots of organic
debris you will observe quite a big ammonia spike now...
Wait for adding rock until ammonia be not detectable.

Then you can add live rock, do landscaping and top off
the rest of the sal****er to make the tank full.

At this moment you should have no fish, no invertebrates,
espiecially corals in the tank... You are expecting huge
ammonia spikes before the tank will complete nitrogen cycle.

Depending of the quality of the rock, the tank will cycle
sooner or later. If you have rock shipped to your home
dirrectly you will expect more dead animals on the rocks,
so you will have to wait longer for the tank to cycle.
If you buy already cured rock in the local store, bring
it quickly to your tank the die-off will be minimal and
in most cases you will not see ammonia spike at all...

Tank at this level, with bare-bone live rock, no fish, should
be your first goal. This will keep you busy for weeks...

In the meantime, buy a good book and read it cover to
cover before you buy your tank, lights and equipment...
What you buy STRONGLY depends on what you want to
keep in your tank... what type of corals, what types of fish.

On Sep 25, 3:02 pm, "Pszemol" wrote:
"Big Habeeb" wrote in glegroups.com...
I think I was able to find my answers on the live rock - gotta get the
thing up and running with sal****er first. So can the sand handle
having freshwater put onto it and then salt added, or is that the same
kind of scenario?

All living critters in a reef tank will die in freshwater pretty quickly.
They will also die without water pretty quickly, but some of them
can survive in moist environment in some rock crevices, so
live rock is shipped without water, and what dies, it dies...
What survives the trip starts growing in your tank.

The sand bottom of the tank is done in couple different ways.
Also, what people call "live sand" could be quite different
depending who do you talk...
Some LFS sell "live sand" in plastic bag in moist state...
This is not what I would call live sand - this is rather wet sand.
It will have some bacteria left on the sand, but no living
creatures which could be beneficial in the reef tank: mini stars,
crustaceans, micro snails, etc.. For such animals to be present
in the live sand you need to fly it from the reef on the airplane.
Exactly like live rock is shipped. Day or two out of the ocean.
Not longer...

How is the "live sand" in the plastic bag made?
It is dead sand, sterilized to not stink, then a bacteria starter
is added and the bag is sealed. You pay big bugs for a wet
sand which you can make yourself at home buing some dry
playsand in Home Depot and a small bottle of bacteria starter.

So the order would be this way:
You make up sal****er in a clean, plastic bucket or two.
Let it stand until everything is mixed well and not cloudy (overnight).
You make enough water to cover the sand... lets say 10 gallons.
You put a layer of dry sand on the bottom of the tank...
Using known technique from freshwater tanks you place
a dinner plate or a foil bag on the surface of the sand and
pour water in the tank to not disturb sand too much...

If you are going with REAL live sand layer on top of the
dry sand as a seeding method, now you would put a layer
of live sand. Also try to disturb the sand as little as possible.

Then you prepare more water and add untill the tank is
maybe 70% full... You need room for the live rock volume.

Before you add live rock you keep the tank with just sand
and water for couple of days to make sand settle a bit.

If your dry sand was not clean and have a lots of organic
debris you will observe quite a big ammonia spike now...
Wait for adding rock until ammonia be not detectable.

Then you can add live rock, do landscaping and top off
the rest of the sal****er to make the tank full.

At this moment you should have no fish, no invertebrates,
espiecially corals in the tank... You are expecting huge
ammonia spikes before the tank will complete nitrogen cycle.

Depending of the quality of the rock, the tank will cycle
sooner or later. If you have rock shipped to your home
dirrectly you will expect more dead animals on the rocks,
so you will have to wait longer for the tank to cycle.
If you buy already cured rock in the local store, bring
it quickly to your tank the die-off will be minimal and
in most cases you will not see ammonia spike at all...

Tank at this level, with bare-bone live rock, no fish, should
be your first goal. This will keep you busy for weeks...

In the meantime, buy a good book and read it cover to
cover before you buy your tank, lights and equipment...
What you buy STRONGLY depends on what you want to
keep in your tank... what type of corals, what types of fish.

Thank you SO much for the response here. I have, in fact, read a
couple of books but they seem to mostly focus on the chemistry of the
tank...which is important, no doubt, but doesn't really help me figure
out how to START, which you have just helped me out here with. I know
it takes time and the first goal you set is exactly what I
anticipated. As someone who has mostly done freshwater with very few
jumps into salt I guess I just didnt know how to go about getting
rolling in terms of the salt water itself. I know I can mix it
myself, I was just hoping there was an easier way to go about filling
a tank...i.e. in a 72 gallon tank, pump in 50 gallons of water from a
hose and then adjust salt content as needed...but I'm guessing that
would cause a major problem in terms of getting the sand substrate to
settle down to the bottom.

And yes, I know the "bowl in the bottom" method very well. the first,
and still probably the best, trick I ever learned from my time doing
freshwater stuffs.

About the only question you DIDNT answer was in terms of being able to
stack live rock - can you actually epoxy the stuff together, or will
that murder everything in there? I've read a lot about people gluing
organisms TO the rock, but not actually connecting the rock at
all...any thoughts?

Mitch