Starting a reef tank

"Pszemol" wrote on Sat, 29 Sep 2007:
http://reefnest.com/diy/slicinganemone/index.html
http://blogs.frags.org/showblog.php?bid=92

Interesting. I'll admit, I didn't know about this forced propagation.

Still, there's a huge difference between carefully cutting a large, mature,
healthy, well-fed specimen in half; vs. randomly chopping it into ten pieces,
or grinding one through a powerhead pump.

If you take an Aiptasia, smash it into paste, and pour it into your tank, I'm
going to bet that a month later you have an Aiptasia infestation all over
tank.

You do the same to a bubble tip anemone, and you'll never see it again in
your tank.

I have read about people toss away a perfectly good and healthy anemone
just because they noticed they expell all water from their bodies, their
normal life function, but they look dead to an uneducated owner.

So tell me, how do you tell when an anemone actually is dead?

Does it prove they are "difficult"? No, they are just different. If
treated right they are pretty hardy animals and we know very well how to
take care about most of the species. It is enough data out there that after
reading something about the animal you will not kill it.

Of course it's possible to take care of them and even raise them.

But that doesn't make it easy, especially compared to some other aquatic
species.

p.s. how many sea anemones have you killed yourself?

I suppose the answer is one, but maybe it depends how you count.

I've had up to five anemones over a few years. Had a sabae and long-tentacle
green for awhile, then they started killing nearby corals, and I returned
them to the LFS.

Had a rose anemone for a long time. It grew big, and split:
http://reef.geddis.org/55g/life.html#rose
Then one of the daughters split again. So I had three for many months.

I got a "reef safe" black spiny sea urchin at one point. Only to discover
that within half an hour it basically found and devoured one of the rose
clones. I pulled the urchin off, but the anemone was hard and bleached white
over 3/4 of its body. I'll admit, I threw that one out (and returned the
urchin).

The other two clones, at different times much later, seemed to grow "sick".
When it happened, the anemone would stay deflated 24 hours a day. Its foot
would release from the rock, and it would just float all over the tank
drifting by the currents. It would refuse to eat. I'd force some meaty food
into its mouth, and it wouldn't react, and the food would eventually fall
out. The tentacles weren't sticky. Anemones are capable of devouring
themselves when in a low-nutrition situation, so the the anemone would slowly
get smaller and smaller over weeks.

It didn't seem to be water conditions. When it happened to the first clone,
the other clone spent the whole time perfectly happy. Full expansion each
day, eating happily, etc. Water changes seemed to have no effect. I don't
know what went wrong. Much later, my last remaining rose clone had the same
kind of failure.

I generally left them alone for a few weeks. Aside from trying to reseat
them in a rock (which never stuck), and force-feed, I didn't know what to do.
Eventually I worried that the animal would decompose and release toxins in
the water, potentially endangering my other fish and corals. So I'll admit
that, in the end, I did remove each animal before it was completely dead.

Note also that during all this, I had only been a reefkeeper for about six
months. I think I'm much better at it now, can maintain much more stable
water conditions, etc. I don't keep anemones any more, but I've got plenty
of sensitive species, such as stony corals and seahorses. And a group of
clownfish, which seem perfectly happy adopting a hammer corals (and before
that, frogspawn corals) as hosts instead of their natural anemones.

OK, your turn. How many anemones have you kept? How many have you killed?
How much propagation have you done?

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
Be on the lookout for a leopard which escaped from the zoo early this morning.
It was spotted near the corner of 12th and Cherry at around 8am, and in all
likelihood still is.

"Don Geddis" wrote in message ...
"Pszemol" wrote on Sat, 29 Sep 2007:
http://reefnest.com/diy/slicinganemone/index.html
http://blogs.frags.org/showblog.php?bid=92

Interesting. I'll admit, I didn't know about this forced propagation.

Still, there's a huge difference between carefully cutting a large, mature,
healthy, well-fed specimen in half; vs. randomly chopping it into ten pieces,
or grinding one through a powerhead pump.

What difference are you talking about?

If you take an Aiptasia, smash it into paste, and pour it into your tank, I'm
going to bet that a month later you have an Aiptasia infestation all over
tank.

No, it would not work.
And if you are ready to bet, than we could arrange an experiment
in controlled environment (like a aiptasia free tank "inoculated"
with smashed aiptasia paste).

I have read about people toss away a perfectly good and healthy anemone
just because they noticed they expell all water from their bodies, their
normal life function, but they look dead to an uneducated owner.

So tell me, how do you tell when an anemone actually is dead?

Only when you really see/smell it roting.
Your nose is your best tool to recognise invertebrate death in reef tank.

Does it prove they are "difficult"? No, they are just different. If
treated right they are pretty hardy animals and we know very well how to
take care about most of the species. It is enough data out there that after
reading something about the animal you will not kill it.

Of course it's possible to take care of them and even raise them.

But that doesn't make it easy, especially compared to some other aquatic
species.

You are drifting again into a BAD understanding of word "easy" :-)

There is nothing difficult in carying for an anemone, I asure you.
No special skills are required. Only some minimal knowledge.
With this minimum knowledge you can be sure of success.

What I understand about "difficult" animal is for example when
you need to feed some slug a special kind of sea sponge...
It is difficult to buy such sponge, or to keep it in a tank with
slugs, so inherently it will be difficult to take care about slug
which only diet is such sponge.

Another example, mandarin fish - it is difficult because it
will only eat live plankton. Because it is usually hard to have
plenty of live plankton in the reef tank carying for a mandarin
is difficult, but only in certain situations (small tank, new tank etc).
After a while, when reef is mature and tank is big enough
to support a mandarin, carying for that fish is EASIER than
carying for other fish: mandarin will feed itself from the rocks!

p.s. how many sea anemones have you killed yourself?

I suppose the answer is one, but maybe it depends how you count.

I've had up to five anemones over a few years. Had a sabae and long-tentacle
green for awhile, then they started killing nearby corals, and I returned
them to the LFS.

Had a rose anemone for a long time. It grew big, and split:
http://reef.geddis.org/55g/life.html#rose
Then one of the daughters split again. So I had three for many months.

Very nice pictures...

I got a "reef safe" black spiny sea urchin at one point. Only to discover
that within half an hour it basically found and devoured one of the rose
clones. I pulled the urchin off, but the anemone was hard and bleached white
over 3/4 of its body. I'll admit, I threw that one out (and returned the
urchin).

Well... Urchin damage is only mechanical damage if I am correct,
so it would likely survive the injury if given a chance...
Different story is with predatory sea stars, they engulf prey with
their stomach outside of their body and start digesting the prey
even before consuming it. This kind of chemical poisoning would be
in my opinion much harder to heal for an anemone than urchin bite.
But I would ask some marine zoologist to be sure...

The other two clones, at different times much later, seemed to grow "sick".
When it happened, the anemone would stay deflated 24 hours a day. Its foot
would release from the rock, and it would just float all over the tank
drifting by the currents. It would refuse to eat. I'd force some meaty food
into its mouth, and it wouldn't react, and the food would eventually fall
out. The tentacles weren't sticky. Anemones are capable of devouring
themselves when in a low-nutrition situation, so the the anemone would slowly
get smaller and smaller over weeks.

It didn't seem to be water conditions. When it happened to the first clone,
the other clone spent the whole time perfectly happy. Full expansion each
day, eating happily, etc. Water changes seemed to have no effect. I don't
know what went wrong. Much later, my last remaining rose clone had the same
kind of failure.

Maybe they did not like the spot they were in and decided to move out ;-)

I generally left them alone for a few weeks. Aside from trying to reseat
them in a rock (which never stuck), and force-feed, I didn't know what to do.
Eventually I worried that the animal would decompose and release toxins in
the water, potentially endangering my other fish and corals. So I'll admit
that, in the end, I did remove each animal before it was completely dead.

Sad story.... They are beautiful animals.

Note also that during all this, I had only been a reefkeeper for about six
months. I think I'm much better at it now, can maintain much more stable
water conditions, etc. I don't keep anemones any more, but I've got plenty
of sensitive species, such as stony corals and seahorses. And a group of
clownfish, which seem perfectly happy adopting a hammer corals (and before
that, frogspawn corals) as hosts instead of their natural anemones.

OK, your turn. How many anemones have you kept? How many have you killed?
How much propagation have you done?

I have kept two bubble-tips, one green-brown variety, which is now huge
in my 58 gallon reef and a small rose bubble-tip which healed quickly after
a power filter intake accident in a small 10 gallons pico reef. This accident
was really looking horrible. Whole anemone was sucked into the tube
of the power filter. Only base/stump with hanging out guts was left on
the rock. It was total surprise for me, because anemone was sittin in
one spot for months already. suddenly it moved for a suicidal mission.
As I have already described before, it healed quickly.

I had major water quality issues in my reef tank about two/three years ago.
I lost two tuxedo urchins, 2 sea cukes and my anemone was very sick,
similar to what you described: lack of inflation, non-sticky tentacles...
Basically I have neglected the tank, let the maroon cyanobacteria
overgrown the rocks and probably poison a lot of animals. After
taking care of phosphates issues and correcting water quality my
anemone recovered fully and sports beautiful bubble tips under the
power compacts.

Luckily, both are now growing fast and are perfectly healthy.

"Pszemol" wrote on Mon, 1 Oct 2007 :
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ...
Another example, mandarin fish - it is difficult because it will only eat
live plankton. Because it is usually hard to have plenty of live plankton
in the reef tank carying for a mandarin is difficult, but only in certain
situations (small tank, new tank etc). After a while, when reef is mature
and tank is big enough to support a mandarin, carying for that fish is
EASIER than carying for other fish: mandarin will feed itself from the
rocks!

Yeah, I've got a couple of those too. Even easier than the regular fish: I
don't even have to feed them! I have no concern that I can take off on
vacation for a week or two, and the mandarins might starve. Maybe the other
fish, but not the mandarins.

I got a "reef safe" black spiny sea urchin at one point. Only to discover
that within half an hour it basically found and devoured one of the rose
clones. I pulled the urchin off, but the anemone was hard and bleached
white over 3/4 of its body. I'll admit, I threw that one out (and
returned the urchin).

Well... Urchin damage is only mechanical damage if I am correct

Actually, this didn't seem to be.

so it would likely survive the injury if given a chance... Different story
is with predatory sea stars, they engulf prey with their stomach outside of
their body and start digesting the prey even before consuming it. This kind
of chemical poisoning would be in my opinion much harder to heal for an
anemone than urchin bite.

The urchin sure looked like it did exactly what you are talking about with
the sea stars. I don't think I saw the stomach come out, but maybe it did.
But this was no mechanical ripping. There was no question that 3/4 of the
anemone, the part touched by the urchin, was chemically destroyed and already
rotting, within an hour. The color went from the usual translucent pink, to
solid white. Just horrible.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
Winner, "Papers I wish I hadn't written" contest:
Montagnino, Lucian A., "Test and Evaluation of the Hubble Space
Telescope 2.4 Meter Primary Mirror" Proc. SPIE, Large Optics
Technology, Vol. 571, August 1985

Long spined urchins have venum in the spines.

Wayne Sallee



Don Geddis wrote on 10/2/2007 8:06 PM:

The urchin sure looked like it did exactly what you are talking about with
the sea stars. I don't think I saw the stomach come out, but maybe it did.
But this was no mechanical ripping. There was no question that 3/4 of the
anemone, the part touched by the urchin, was chemically destroyed and already
rotting, within an hour. The color went from the usual translucent pink, to
solid white. Just horrible.

-- Don