Bye bye tetras

Well they're dying right on time as I feared. The advice I got here that
they adapt to hard alkaline water isn't true, as least not for us here in
middle TN. I should have known better not to buy them, as it was their
death sentence and a waste of money. I'm down to 7 neons from a dozen, and
3 of the 5 black neons died. Two of the lemon tetras also died and 1
Sherpae.

So far the rest look fine.

Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 20
Nitrite - 0
Hardness - 150 ppm
Alk - 180
PH - 8.4

I was told by the owner of one place that all the shops in this area keep
the PH at 7 as it's best for most fish. But it's presenting problems when
people get their fish home. The PH from our taps here is way higher, and
the fish are not always adapting. I mean, from a PH of 7 to PHs as high as
7.8 to 8.4? Now, get this, before they'll make good on the fish you have to
bring in water samples. Is this for real? Anyone can adulterate the water
before bringing it in for them to check. These fish kept at 7 at the
wholesalers and pet stores are going to have a adapt to water many many
times more alkaline then they've been kept in for who knows how
long......... it's bad news.
--

RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

top-posting repaired.

"Jeffrey St. Clair, Ph.D." wrote in
:
"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

I was told by the owner of one place that all the shops in this area
keep the PH at 7 as it's best for most fish. But it's presenting
problems when people get their fish home. The PH from our taps here
is way higher, and the fish are not always adapting. I mean, from a
PH of 7 to PHs as high as 7.8 to 8.4? Now, get this, before they'll
make good on the fish you have to bring in water samples. Is this for
real? Anyone can adulterate the water before bringing it in for them
to check. These fish kept at 7 at the wholesalers and pet stores are
going to have a adapt to water many many times more alkaline then
they've been kept in for who knows how long......... it's bad news.
--

Why not buy a neutralizer, such as this one?

http://www.petsolutions.com/Neutral-...03060+C48.aspx


With his hardness and alkalinity, the water is fairly well buffered against
pH changes. It'd be hard/expensive to treat with chemicals to get it down
to the pH 7 that the store is at. pH 8.0 is 10x more alkaline than pH 7.0.

If you _really_ want to keep pH neutral, or fish that like soft, acidic
water, you'll probably need to get an RO/DI unit, and make up water to your
deisred pH by mixing RO with tap water. (Of course, that purchase puts
your feet firmly on the road to keeping either discus, or a reef tank...
but there are worse fates in life ;-)

If it were me, I'd go with the flow, and set up an African rift lake tank,
instead...

DaveZ

"Jeffrey St. Clair, Ph.D." wrote in
message ...
Why not buy a neutralizer, such as this one?

http://www.petsolutions.com/Neutral-...03060+C48.aspx
==============================
Because they've been around for a long time, most people have tried them and
they're a waste of time and money. You get PH instability. It goes up and
down, then up again. That's worse for the fish. None of these products
work as advertised for obvious reasons. Then, if you can keep the PH jump
within reason, you have more serious instability when you do water changes.
It's a lot easier to raise PH than lower it. Been there, done that,... they
wont get my $$$ agian.
--

RM....
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"atomweaver" wrote in message
...

With his hardness and alkalinity, the water is fairly well buffered
against
pH changes. It'd be hard/expensive to treat with chemicals to get it down
to the pH 7 that the store is at. pH 8.0 is 10x more alkaline than pH
7.0.

There you go my friend. Those I know here have given up trying to lower our
PH.

If you _really_ want to keep pH neutral, or fish that like soft, acidic
water, you'll probably need to get an RO/DI unit, and make up water to
your
deisred pH by mixing RO with tap water. (Of course, that purchase puts
your feet firmly on the road to keeping either discus, or a reef tank...
but there are worse fates in life ;-)

If you have the income for such things. :-)) Us retired folk have to watch
our pennies. The people in one shop are recommending using those jugs of
water from the grocery store to dilute the water in their tanks to soften it
and lower the PH. But those bottles are $1 each. Ok for a small tank
maybe, but when you have 20s and over you're looking at a serious cost here.


If it were me, I'd go with the flow, and set up an African rift lake tank,
instead...

DaveZ

I had them already and yes, they THRIVED and reproduced to the point the
local market was flooded with fry I sold or traded them. My only complaints
with them was the constant fighting and they size they reach - some were
over 6" long when I sold them. Evan an all male tank can become WWIII.
There are smaller varieties of Africans but none are peaceful that I know
of. I'm going to see how the groumies do. I may have to just give up on
the pretty schools of tetras I had my heart set on. :*(
--

RM....
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"Jeffrey St. Clair, Ph.D." wrote in
message ...
Yea, I've never had to make that huge a jump from 8.4 to 7.0, usually only
7.4 to 7.0 using a phosphate buffer which is stable but not a good idea if
you have live plants like you do.

What size tank did you to the africans in?

They were in both 55s and a 30g long. Fry were raised in 10s.

They need at least a 4 foot long
tank to swim. Anything shorter and even overstocking them won't ease
aggression.

You got that right. It wasn't very relaxing watching them.

If you have a 55 gallon and slightly overstock with lots of
caves, like with holey rock, agression usualy doesn't exist as they're
used to crowds in the lake.

All three tanks were full of limestone and shale caves. They'd fight like
hell over the caves even though there were more caves than fish. Crowding
doesn't always help I found and they do get large. Now I'm looking for
communities of smaller fish that get along. I'm going to so some boning up
on fish that like hard alkaline water.
;-)


--

RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:56:59 -0500, Reel McKoi wrote:

I had them already and yes, they THRIVED and reproduced to the point the
local market was flooded with fry I sold or traded them. My only complaints
with them was the constant fighting and they size they reach - some were
over 6" long when I sold them. Evan an all male tank can become WWIII.
There are smaller varieties of Africans but none are peaceful that I know
of. I'm going to see how the groumies do. I may have to just give up on
the pretty schools of tetras I had my heart set on. :*(

Try rainbowfish instead. Most of them like the hard alkaline water (I
have it too) and there's a lot of beautiful varieties. Do a Google on
"Home of the Rainbowfish" Males flashing the stripe that runs from the
nose to the dorsal fin are a sight to behold.

"Steve Wolstenholme" wrote in message
...
On the other hand, some of us keep fishes that prefer high pH. pH 8.0
is ideal for the fishes that I keep.

==========================
What fish are you keeping? I already have a small group of colorful platys.
They love hard alkaline water. I don't want guppies because they breed like
there's no tomorrow. Swords jump and the males harass the platys.
--
RM....
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:56:59 -0500, Reel McKoi wrote:

I had them already and yes, they THRIVED and reproduced to the point the
local market was flooded with fry I sold or traded them. My only
complaints
with them was the constant fighting and they size they reach - some were
over 6" long when I sold them. Evan an all male tank can become WWIII.
There are smaller varieties of Africans but none are peaceful that I know
of. I'm going to see how the groumies do. I may have to just give up on
the pretty schools of tetras I had my heart set on. :*(

Try rainbowfish instead.

Gil already mentioned them but I can't find them anywhere here and wont
mail-order fish.

Most of them like the hard alkaline water (I
have it too) and there's a lot of beautiful varieties. Do a Google on
"Home of the Rainbowfish" Males flashing the stripe that runs from the
nose to the dorsal fin are a sight to behold.

What chain carries them were you live?
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:14:22 -0500, Reel McKoi wrote:

Try rainbowfish instead.

Gil already mentioned them but I can't find them anywhere here and wont
mail-order fish.

Most of them like the hard alkaline water (I
have it too) and there's a lot of beautiful varieties. Do a Google on
"Home of the Rainbowfish" Males flashing the stripe that runs from the
nose to the dorsal fin are a sight to behold.

What chain carries them were you live?

You may find Dwarf neon rainbows at Petsmart from time to time. I've even
seen McCullochi rainbows there once, but the manager bought them for his
tanks :-).

I've found Boesmani and Batanta Island rainbows at a LFS and I don't live
in a large city.

For others, yes, I have ordered some forktailed blue-eyes via the mail.
You just have to be careful who you order from. I got mine from a small
vendor who even threw in a few extras, but he's out of business now.

There's a vendor on Aquabid ("rarefishatlax") who carries only rainbows,
but I've heard conflicting reports about him. And he's expensive. But he
does have the biggest selection of rainbows I've seen anywhere.

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 01:25:59 -0500, Jeffrey St. Clair, Ph.D. wrote:


"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...
I'm going to so some boning up on fish that like hard alkaline water.
;-)

The Lamprichthys species of Killifish love hard alkaline water, very
peaceful and colorful too.

Another thought would be the Brichardi group of cichlids. They are
schooling fish and pretty non-agressive. I considered those before I
decided on rainbows.