RM...........here are some links to some good sites that have the proper bulbs

"g_i_n_k_o" wrote in message
...
In rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants Reel McKoi
wrote:
: OK, now were getting somewhere. Regular old shop lights with a with
: reflector. That is most likely the main problem. First off, the
: reflectors on those lights are made to reflect light from a height so
: yuo get decent light dispersion.

The typical shop light reflector isn't that good, but it's not
really much worse than the polished box reflector found in the
vast majority of commercial aquarium fixtures.

Ideally, something of a parabolic reflector for each tube works
best at sending light straight down into the tank where one gets
maximum penetration in deeper tanks. A commercial (and very
expensive) fixture that does an excellent job at this is the
T5 HO TekLight.

The typical polished rectangular box doesn't send light down into
the tank, but tends to bounce it around until it hits one of the
fluorescent tubes. (The exercise of comparing a pseudo-parabolic
reflector against a rectangular box via a geometry diagram is left
to the reader.) Manufacturers compensate for the bad reflector
by adding more tubes to the unit. These fixtures do work OK and
the extra tubes aren't really much of an issue unless you have
more than a few tanks which makes one much more interested in
conserving electricity to reduce a very high electricity bill.

I grow plants with highly efficient Tek Lights, and less effective
polished box reflector fixtures. Both do OK. Medium light tanks
are more forgiving, so those tanks get my old less efficient
reflector light fixtures.

As for algae and light, it gets tricker the more light you add
to the aquarium. So for beginners, I recommend starting out with
medium light level plants with a medium light level fixture.
A cheap shop light with a simple reflector will do the job for
this. It's not as effective as one with a parabolic reflector,
but for medium light, it will be good enough.

Bulbs are _not_ the primary cause algae, it's the water conditions.
Adding more light just speeds up the growth of everything (desirable
plants and algae). Poor water conditions under medium light will
require you to monthly scrape off ugly algae. Poor water conditions
under very high light will require you to daily scrape off ugly algae.

My philosophy is that for the first year, it's better to take the
cheap route and get some successes with easy-to-grow medium light
plants than to take the expensive high risk route where it takes
some real skill and experience to keep algae at bay.
===============================================
I'm starting to think it's the nitrates and phosphates that come right from
my tap! And the rain water I'm using is catching dust and providing more
algae nutrients........ a losing battle unless I go for some expensive pads
to remove these nutrients.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

In rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants Reel McKoi wrote:
:
: I'm starting to think it's the nitrates and phosphates that come right from
: my tap! And the rain water I'm using is catching dust and providing more
: algae nutrients........ a losing battle unless I go for some expensive pads
: to remove these nutrients.

As a rule to conserve money, I try to avoid all things that have expensive
replacement pads, cartridges and other such items. I don't believe in most
of them as to actually working as advertised.

One exception is a good Reverse Osmosis unit. It needs replacement cartridges
about once a year. The RO water is pretty pure and I add back the desired
hardness with baking soda and something called GH Booster that I get really
cheap from aquariumfertilizer.com. The waste water comes after the carbon
block filter, so I use this for hard water tanks (i.e. goldfish and most
live bearers). So the money I would have spent on de-chlor chemicals instead
goes into replacement RO system filter cartridges.

Another exception is a CO2 tank with regulator. This really helps and once
you have the system, it only costs around $20.00 for a refill that lasts more
than 6 months. I wouldn't even try growing plants in a high light setup without
adding CO2.

Then you need to follow a fertilizer dosing schedule. I use something called
the "Estimative Index". Do a google search on "Tom Barr" "Estimative Index"
to get the details. I get raw chemicals for nutrients at aquariumfertilizer.com
and follow the plan with the 50 percent weekly water change. There are other
plans out there, but EI works well for me.

Most of my hight light tank problems went away when I started doing the above
three things. There are other ways to do this, but it works for me and is
relatively inexpensive (long-term) compared to other ways.

For medium light tanks with fish, you don' need to do much of this. I have
good success by using hard or RO softened water and just adding trace elements
once a week or so. The fish poop provides enough macro nutrients for a
medium light tank. It's much simpler, so that's why I suggest people start
out with something easier before doing the high light, high maintenance tank.

Hope this is helpful. There are many ways to do this. I think this is one
of the easiest and least expensive ways.

"g_i_n_k_o" wrote in message
...
In rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants Reel McKoi
wrote:
:
: I'm starting to think it's the nitrates and phosphates that come right
from
: my tap! And the rain water I'm using is catching dust and providing
more
: algae nutrients........ a losing battle unless I go for some expensive
pads
: to remove these nutrients.

As a rule to conserve money, I try to avoid all things that have expensive
replacement pads, cartridges and other such items. I don't believe in
most
of them as to actually working as advertised.

Actually I agree. There are loads of gimmick items out there that are
useless.

One exception is a good Reverse Osmosis unit. It needs replacement
cartridges
about once a year. The RO water is pretty pure and I add back the desired
hardness with baking soda and something called GH Booster that I get
really
cheap from aquariumfertilizer.com. The waste water comes after the
carbon
block filter, so I use this for hard water tanks (i.e. goldfish and most
live bearers). So the money I would have spent on de-chlor chemicals
instead
goes into replacement RO system filter cartridges.

I've been buying my dechlor (have ponds and tanks) by the 10lb bucket as
crystals.

Another exception is a CO2 tank with regulator. This really helps and
once
you have the system, it only costs around $20.00 for a refill that lasts
more
than 6 months. I wouldn't even try growing plants in a high light setup
without
adding CO2.

Where does the water in nature get the CO2 from?

Then you need to follow a fertilizer dosing schedule. I use something
called
the "Estimative Index". Do a google search on "Tom Barr" "Estimative
Index"
to get the details. I get raw chemicals for nutrients at
aquariumfertilizer.com
and follow the plan with the 50 percent weekly water change. There are
other
plans out there, but EI works well for me.

I'll Google that. I can't afford the Tom Barr stuff or CO2 injectors. These
things are not cheap. The shipping on Barr's fertilizers cost as much as the
products he sells.

Most of my hight light tank problems went away when I started doing the
above
three things. There are other ways to do this, but it works for me and is
relatively inexpensive (long-term) compared to other ways.

How much are you spending yearly for the fertilizers, the RO unit, the
electricity to run it etc?

For medium light tanks with fish, you don' need to do much of this. I
have
good success by using hard or RO softened water and just adding trace
elements
once a week or so. The fish poop provides enough macro nutrients for a
medium light tank. It's much simpler, so that's why I suggest people
start
out with something easier before doing the high light, high maintenance
tank.

I'm sure not into high-light, high-maintenance tanks. ;-)

Hope this is helpful. There are many ways to do this. I think this is
one
of the easiest and least expensive ways.

Give me a ballpark frigure on what you spent for the RO unit, CO2 injector
etc. And are you in the USA?

--

RM....

Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

In rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants Reel McKoi wrote:
:
: Where does the water in nature get the CO2 from?
:

High tech, high light planted aquariums are not at all natural, they only
appear to be so :-)

In nature, a relatively small amount of CO2 dissolves into water. If you
super-saturate the water with CO2, plants that can barely survive at best
under water become showcase specimens. This is because CO2 is a primary
limiting factor in underwater plants.

Even in medium light, supplementing with CO2 doubles the growth of plants.
This tends to help the plants more than the algae, so it gives more
return for your effort than other costly things to try.

You can bubble your own CO2 with yeast, sugar and water in a 2 liter soda
bottle. It's a pain to keep feeding the yeast, but it's pretty cheap and
does a good job for many plants. Google "DIY CO2" should get some info to you.

: How much are you spending yearly for the fertilizers, the RO unit, the
: electricity to run it etc?

Dry fertilizers are cheap, shipping is not. Order several years worth
with a few people and your annual cost will probably drop to less than
$20 a year.

RO and CO2 units cost several hundred dollars up front, but annual
maintenance after that is pretty low.

All my costs get dwarfed by the electricity bill. Lights with efficient
reflectors lets you run the fixture for fewer hours and use less tubes.
Still I have more than a dozen fixtures, only a few have optimal reflectors:

4 tube * 54 watt T5 HO tek Light, 8 hours/day
4 tube * 24 watt T5 HO tek Light, 8 hours/day
2 tube * 32 watt T8, 12 hours/day
2 tube * 32 watt T8 overdriven, 12 hours/day
2 tube * 28 watt T5 strip light * 4 strips, 12 hours/day
2 tube * 14 watt T5 strip light * 4 strips, 12 hours/day
1 tube * 32 watt T8 modified strip light with good reflector
1 120 watt PC hydroponic fixture over large cube tank 8 hours/day
1 96 watt PC "quad tube", 12 hours/day, to be replaced.

Add up the kilowatt hours and plug into your local rate :-)

g_in_k_o said the following on 12/31/2007 3:23 PM:

snip

You can bubble your own CO2 with yeast, sugar and water in a 2 liter soda
bottle. It's a pain to keep feeding the yeast, but it's pretty cheap and
does a good job for many plants. Google "DIY CO2" should get some info to you.

URL: http://thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90039&page=23

About half way down that page is a section where the guy posted pictures
and instructions on how to make a DIY CO2 generator. I found that
article while researching for a reef tank. I made one two nights ago and
it works good. Too good in fact. I double dosed the yeast trying to jump
start my plant tank and ran into a problem worse than recharging the
yeast. Trying to regulate the CO2. Instead of bending a stiff piece of
tubing, I simply used flex tubing and ran it through the bottom of the
strainer (after drilling a hole for it). The problem is that it produces
so much CO2 that the bubbles actually build up and cause my filter to
"dry run" for about a half a second every minute or so. I am going to
have to put a T in it and split it up. Impossible to regulate.

--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind

"Randy Webb" wrote in message
...
g_in_k_o said the following on 12/31/2007 3:23 PM:

snip

You can bubble your own CO2 with yeast, sugar and water in a 2 liter soda
bottle. It's a pain to keep feeding the yeast, but it's pretty cheap and
does a good job for many plants. Google "DIY CO2" should get some info
to you.

URL: http://thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90039&page=23

About half way down that page is a section where the guy posted pictures
and instructions on how to make a DIY CO2 generator. I found that article
while researching for a reef tank. I made one two nights ago and it works
good. Too good in fact. I double dosed the yeast trying to jump start my
plant tank and ran into a problem worse than recharging the yeast. Trying
to regulate the CO2. Instead of bending a stiff piece of tubing, I simply
used flex tubing and ran it through the bottom of the strainer (after
drilling a hole for it). The problem is that it produces so much CO2 that
the bubbles actually build up and cause my filter to "dry run" for about a
half a second every minute or so. I am going to have to put a T in it and
split it up. Impossible to regulate.
==============================
Thanks Randy but I really don't have the time to mess with something like
that. I can kill all my fish if I make a mistake.
--

RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

Reel McKoi said the following on 1/9/2008 10:41 PM:

"Randy Webb" wrote in message
...
g_in_k_o said the following on 12/31/2007 3:23 PM:

snip

You can bubble your own CO2 with yeast, sugar and water in a 2 liter
soda
bottle. It's a pain to keep feeding the yeast, but it's pretty cheap
and
does a good job for many plants. Google "DIY CO2" should get some
info to you.

URL: http://thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90039&page=23

About half way down that page is a section where the guy posted
pictures and instructions on how to make a DIY CO2 generator. I found
that article while researching for a reef tank. I made one two nights
ago and it works good. Too good in fact. I double dosed the yeast
trying to jump start my plant tank and ran into a problem worse than
recharging the yeast. Trying to regulate the CO2. Instead of bending a
stiff piece of tubing, I simply used flex tubing and ran it through
the bottom of the strainer (after drilling a hole for it). The problem
is that it produces so much CO2 that the bubbles actually build up and
cause my filter to "dry run" for about a half a second every minute or
so. I am going to have to put a T in it and split it up. Impossible to
regulate.
==============================
Thanks Randy but I really don't have the time to mess with something
like that. I can kill all my fish if I make a mistake.

That is very true. I tried it because I was setting up a plant tank. The
hope was to make it a planted and fish tank but I wanted the plants
established first, then introduce the fish. Since there were no fish, I
didn't have to worry about over-dosing the CO2.

One thing I have thought about doing was putting the T in it and let one
side just dump out (not into the tank) so that I could try to regulate
what is going into the tank.

--
Randy
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind

"g_in_k_o" wrote in message
...
In rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants Reel McKoi
wrote:
:
: Where does the water in nature get the CO2 from?
:
High tech, high light planted aquariums are not at all natural, they only
appear to be so :-)

In nature, a relatively small amount of CO2 dissolves into water. If you
super-saturate the water with CO2, plants that can barely survive at best
under water become showcase specimens. This is because CO2 is a primary
limiting factor in underwater plants.

It should then also enter aquarium water and be added by the fish as they
breathe.

Even in medium light, supplementing with CO2 doubles the growth of plants.
This tends to help the plants more than the algae, so it gives more
return for your effort than other costly things to try.

You can bubble your own CO2 with yeast, sugar and water in a 2 liter soda
bottle. It's a pain to keep feeding the yeast, but it's pretty cheap and
does a good job for many plants. Google "DIY CO2" should get some info to
you.

: How much are you spending yearly for the fertilizers, the RO unit, the
: electricity to run it etc?

Dry fertilizers are cheap, shipping is not. Order several years worth
with a few people and your annual cost will probably drop to less than
$20 a year.

I have no one to share an order with. No one I know grows aquarium plants
although they keep fish.

RO and CO2 units cost several hundred dollars up front, but annual
maintenance after that is pretty low.

All my costs get dwarfed by the electricity bill. Lights with efficient
reflectors lets you run the fixture for fewer hours and use less tubes.
Still I have more than a dozen fixtures, only a few have optimal
reflectors:

4 tube * 54 watt T5 HO tek Light, 8 hours/day
4 tube * 24 watt T5 HO tek Light, 8 hours/day
2 tube * 32 watt T8, 12 hours/day
2 tube * 32 watt T8 overdriven, 12 hours/day
2 tube * 28 watt T5 strip light * 4 strips, 12 hours/day
2 tube * 14 watt T5 strip light * 4 strips, 12 hours/day
1 tube * 32 watt T8 modified strip light with good reflector
1 120 watt PC hydroponic fixture over large cube tank 8 hours/day
1 96 watt PC "quad tube", 12 hours/day, to be replaced.

Add up the kilowatt hours and plug into your local rate :-)

Electricity where I live isn't very expensive.
--

RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

On Dec 29 2007, 12:27*pm, g_i_n_k_o wrote:
In rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants Reel McKoi wrote:
:
: I'm starting to think it's the nitrates and phosphates that come right from
: my tap! *And the rain water I'm using is catching dust and providing more
: algae nutrients........ *a losing battle unless I go for some expensive pads
: to remove these nutrients.

As a rule to conserve money, I try to avoid all things that have expensive
replacement pads, cartridges and other such items. *I don't believe in most
of them as to actually working as advertised. *

One exception is a good Reverse Osmosis unit. *It needs replacement cartridges
about once a year. *The RO water is pretty pure and I add back the desired
hardness with baking soda and something called GH Booster that I get really
cheap from aquariumfertilizer.com. * The waste water comes after the carbon
block filter, so I use this for hard water tanks (i.e. goldfish and most
live bearers). *So the money I would have spent on de-chlor chemicals instead
goes into replacement RO system filter cartridges.

Another exception is a CO2 tank with regulator. *This really helps and once
you have the system, it only costs around $20.00 for a refill that lasts more
than 6 months. *I wouldn't even try growing plants in a high light setup without
adding CO2.

Then you need to follow a fertilizer dosing schedule. *I use something called
the "Estimative Index". *Do a google search on "Tom Barr" "Estimative Index"
to get the details. *I get raw chemicals for nutrients at aquariumfertilizer.com
and follow the plan with the 50 percent weekly water change. *There are other
plans out there, but EI works well for me.

Most of my hight light tank problems went away when I started doing the above
three things. *There are other ways to do this, but it works for me and is
relatively inexpensive (long-term) compared to other ways.

For medium light tanks with fish, you don' need to do much of this. *I have
good success by using hard or RO softened water and just adding trace elements
once a week or so. *The fish poop provides enough macro nutrients for a
medium light tank. *It's much simpler, so that's why I suggest people start
out with something easier before doing the high light, high maintenance tank.

Hope this is helpful. *There are many ways to do this. *I think this is one
of the easiest and least expensive ways.

In all reality if your using tap water and doing nothing to it but
adding dechlor or just letting it age or using rain water odds are
your dumping phosphates and nitrates into the tank with each water
change. Its the primary reason folks like to use RO or RODI water as
it eliminates a loot of potential for this sort of problem. You can
get a fairly decent and suitable rodi unit for about a hundred bucks
on Ebay or from Filtersdirect.com, and then it will cost perhaps
$25-30 a year or two to replace carbon and spun fiber filters and DI
resin,.......but you will not need to be concerned with declorinating
water any more for a fish tank and your water will be essentially free
of elements that create problems in due time. Yes, in Freshwater you
will have to re-add certain elements, but a contianer of those
compounds will last a long long time and they are not expensive
anyhow. RO or RODI water and proper lights makes for a lot less
work and a lot more viewing and enjoyment of a fish tank. I have
three RODI units in operation as I do use a lot of water each week in
all my tanks. I have one in the barn feed room which is essentially a
fish room, I have one in the laundry room and one in the hall bath
with has been converted to the "centralized" fish keeping room as
well................The laundry room RODI is hooke dup mainly for auto
top off of my sal****er system and is used to make sal****er for water
changes if I run out of natural salt water. The other two are
primarily used for the coffee maker (ro water only) or rodi for the
freshwater tanks etc. All waste water produced (about 3:1 or so)
during use in making rodi water from these units is also used for
watering plants indoors or out so its not wasted.

LIke I stated previously, I add no additional supplements for plants
of any kind, and I can maintain water lillies (miniature Helvola
Chromia's ) in bloom for most of a full year........The naturally
occuring nutrients also provide sufficient food for my "marginal" type
plants that I have growing in my custom water filled hood that also
provides a place to mount the lights for the tank itself, and provides
a huge flow through bio filter on top of the tank where I can also
grow marginal plants l like frog bit, iris, small taro, water celery,
Hosta, Chameleon etc etc with just a simple hanging plant light above
it all specifically just for the marginal plants and it plays no part
in keeping the tanks submerged plants in shape...........Plus that
hood has added an additonal 12 gal of water on a 29 gal tank but in
the process it eliminated a hang on back fitler , and only added a
decent powerhead capable of pumping water up intothe hood itslef (I
use a MaxiJet 1200 powerhead for this purpose) so there is relatively
little filtration equipment etc inside my hydronic hood
tank...........................