moving YoYo loaches & friends

I'm going to be moving 2 YoYo loaches, 3
Cory cats, 2-3 Glowlight Tetras & several
otocinclus from a 20G long to a 55G. Both
are moderately planted. Plants are easy care
such as crypts, Java Fern, maybe a sword or
two, & some floating plants.

The 55G has been set up for about a month.
Since I moved plants, driftwood, and decor
from the 20G, the 55G is already cycled.
I.e., ammonia is zero, nitrites are zero, nitrates
are present but low. Filtration is a power filter
and a powerhead. At the moment, both are
running without filter material.

Question is when to move the fish. Right
now the pH, GH & KH levels in both tanks
are close in value. Nitrates, though, are
high in the 20G (where fish currently live),
around 30-40 PPM. Nitrates in the 55G
are /=5 PPM.

I just did a partial water change (4 gal.
extracted) on the 20G and will retest
nitrates. I suspect I will continue doing
small water changes for a few days to
get nitrates lower.

From my readings it's suggested fish
shouldn't experience sudden changes in
water parameters, even from "dirty" to
"clean". The gravel in the 20G is three
years old and I doubt I can get it *very*
clean without yanking out some large
plants with extensive root systems. BTW
I don't do CO2 injection. My plants do
fine without it.

Can anyone suggest a target nitrate value
for the 20G that will make it safe for me
to move the fish to a much cleaner
(in nitrate terms) environment in the 55G?

I.e., is a value around 20 PPM nitrates in
the 20G reasonable, or should I try to get
nitrates lower? In the 5-10 range?

Thanks -

Gail

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...
I'm going to be moving 2 YoYo loaches, 3
Cory cats, 2-3 Glowlight Tetras & several
otocinclus from a 20G long to a 55G. Both
are moderately planted. Plants are easy care
such as crypts, Java Fern, maybe a sword or
two, & some floating plants.

The 55G has been set up for about a month.
Since I moved plants, driftwood, and decor
from the 20G, the 55G is already cycled.
I.e., ammonia is zero, nitrites are zero, nitrates
are present but low. Filtration is a power filter
and a powerhead. At the moment, both are
running without filter material.

Question is when to move the fish. Right
now the pH, GH & KH levels in both tanks
are close in value. Nitrates, though, are
high in the 20G (where fish currently live),
around 30-40 PPM. Nitrates in the 55G
are /=5 PPM.

I just did a partial water change (4 gal.
extracted) on the 20G and will retest
nitrates. I suspect I will continue doing
small water changes for a few days to
get nitrates lower.

From my readings it's suggested fish
shouldn't experience sudden changes in
water parameters, even from "dirty" to
"clean". The gravel in the 20G is three
years old and I doubt I can get it *very*
clean without yanking out some large
plants with extensive root systems. BTW
I don't do CO2 injection. My plants do
fine without it.

Can anyone suggest a target nitrate value
for the 20G that will make it safe for me
to move the fish to a much cleaner
(in nitrate terms) environment in the 55G?

I.e., is a value around 20 PPM nitrates in
the 20G reasonable, or should I try to get
nitrates lower? In the 5-10 range?

Thanks -

Gail
==============================
PH and hardness was the only thing I ever concerned myself about when moving
fish. I never bothered to check the nitrate levels.... no problems so far.

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:52:19 +0000, Gail Futoran wrote:

The 55G has been set up for about a month.
Since I moved plants, driftwood, and decor
from the 20G, the 55G is already cycled.
I.e., ammonia is zero, nitrites are zero, nitrates
are present but low.

Unless you've been adding ammonia, or there are fish already in the tank,
I don't see how it could be considered cycled. More likely the bacteria
that were present on the plants/driftwood/decor have died off from lack of
nourishment.

If you did have fish in the tank, ignore my concerns. If not, swap in
some filter material from the 20G and feed a teaspoon or so a day of
ammonia for a week. Then move one or two fish over and see how the tank
chemistry goes.

On Apr 8, 2:52*pm, "Gail Futoran"
wrote:
I'm going to be moving 2 YoYo loaches, 3
Cory cats, 2-3 Glowlight Tetras & several
otocinclus from a 20G long to a 55G. *Both
are moderately planted. *Plants are easy care
such as crypts, Java Fern, maybe a sword or
two, & some floating plants.

The 55G has been set up for about a month.
Since I moved plants, driftwood, and decor
from the 20G, the 55G is already cycled.
I.e., ammonia is zero, nitrites are zero, nitrates
are present but low. *Filtration is a power filter
and a powerhead. *At the moment, both are
running without filter material.

Question is when to move the fish. *Right
now the pH, GH & KH levels in both tanks
are close in value. *Nitrates, though, are
high in the 20G (where fish currently live),
around 30-40 PPM. *Nitrates in the 55G
are /=5 PPM.

I just did a partial water change (4 gal.
extracted) on the 20G and will retest
nitrates. *I suspect I will continue doing
small water changes for a few days to
get nitrates lower.

From my readings it's suggested fish
shouldn't experience sudden changes in
water parameters, even from "dirty" to
"clean". *The gravel in the 20G is three
years old and I doubt I can get it *very*
clean without yanking out some large
plants with extensive root systems. *BTW
I don't do CO2 injection. *My plants do
fine without it.

Can anyone suggest a target nitrate value
for the 20G that will make it safe for me
to move the fish to a much cleaner
(in nitrate terms) environment in the 55G?

I.e., is a value around 20 PPM nitrates in
the 20G reasonable, or should I try to get
nitrates lower? *In the 5-10 range?

Thanks -

Gail

I would not worry about matching nitrates. To be honest either my
tanks are balaced out the same or I am just plain lucky as all I ever
check for anymore is to get the temps close and thats it. As long as
yuor sure your tank is now cycled, then just do a temperature
acclimation matchup. I think they would do just fine. Perhaps just
move a cou0le of fish at a time over, so as not to overload what ever
bio system is in place........sort of how they add sal****er fish only
do one or two at a time..so system can adjust to bio load. I like to
try and get my nitrates as low as possible but plants do neet it to
grow, and once again its been years on end since I have done any
serious water testing, and everything does great so far like it is. I
do however use co2 sysyem on the heavily planted tanks as there is not
sufficient bioload to do the polants much good without it. Hard to
pass it up for what I got it for....Close out at Petsmart and it was
like 75% off suggested list, and refills were selling for 1 cent a
pack regular price was like $12.99 a pack....................so maybe
it would not hurt to checkout Petsmart for the Hydro brand co2
system.......

The cory cats and glow light tet are pretty hardy, and I also have to
believe the clown loachs will do fine too........I also find Oto's
pretty darn hardy as well......so I think you will be just fine
without worrying with nitrate etc matchup. even 10-20 ppm of nitrate
is not going to hurt the fish in a heavily planted tank...but I wuod
shoot for the 10 ppm range myself "IF" I was one to do water tests.
Swap the media from the established tank to be on the safe side and
give it 5 to 7 days or just do the couple of fish at a time over a
week or two time span with old filter media in place and it should be
ok.

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:52:19 +0000, Gail Futoran wrote:

The 55G has been set up for about a month.
Since I moved plants, driftwood, and decor
from the 20G, the 55G is already cycled.
I.e., ammonia is zero, nitrites are zero, nitrates
are present but low.

Unless you've been adding ammonia, or there are fish already in the
tank,
I don't see how it could be considered cycled. More likely the
bacteria
that were present on the plants/driftwood/decor have died off from
lack of
nourishment.

If you did have fish in the tank, ignore my concerns. If not, swap
in
some filter material from the 20G and feed a teaspoon or so a day of
ammonia for a week. Then move one or two fish over and see how the
tank
chemistry goes.

I haven't had to cycle a tank since I got my
first one set up. I currently have four active
(plants + fish) tanks. If you know what you're
doing - minimally, I'm no expert - there's no
need to do a new cycle. As long as one has
an active tank and plants, gravel, decor, etc.
to move into a new tank, there is no need for a
cycle period.
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html#speed-cycling

To clarify, I will emphasize that in addition to
planting plants in the substrate, and moving over
driftwood colonized by Java Fern, I have a bunch
of floating plants (duckweed, anacharis, hornwort).
All help keep the tank cycled. (They get fed with
substrate food - plant tabs - and Flourish Excel.)

As stated in my original email, the 55G was set
up about one month ago. Starting about a week
ago when I tested the water I got ammonia = zero,
nitrites = zero, nitrates = 5 - 10, pH = 7.2 - 7.4.
That is a *cycled* tank.

My only question was to what extent I should
attempt to match nitrates from the source tank
(20G - nitrates about 30 PPM) to the target tank
(55G - nitrates about 7 PPM). All other water
parameters, including temperature, are close.

I'm inclined to continue daily small partial
water changes to the source (20G) tank
until the nitrates get closer to 20 than where
they are now, before gradually moving fish
to the 55G.

Thanks to all who responded.

Gail

"Tynk" wrote in message
...
On Apr 8, 10:35�pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:52:19 +0000, Gail Futoran wrote:
The 55G has been set up for about a month.
Since I moved plants, driftwood, and decor
from the 20G, the 55G is already cycled.
I.e., ammonia is zero, nitrites are zero, nitrates
are present but low.

Unless you've been adding ammonia, or there are fish already in the tank,
I don't see how it could be considered cycled. �More likely the bacteria
that were present on the plants/driftwood/decor have died off from lack of
nourishment.

If you did have fish in the tank, ignore my concerns. �If not, swap in
some filter material from the 20G and feed a teaspoon or so a day of
ammonia for a week. �Then move one or two fish over and see how the tank
chemistry goes.

I too was wondering about the tank running with live bacteria that was
moved into the tank, but nothing to feed it for a month.

When I read his post I assumed he cycled it with fish of some kind. ???

How long exactly does the bacteria live without a food source?

I've had LavaRock dry out in the 720g tank filter spring back to life in
less than a week. I believe it doesn't necessarily "die" but goes dormant
until wet and in the presence of ammonia or nitrites.

brevity snips

I would also bump up the water changes on the 20 while those remaing
fish wait for the 55 to cycle (if no ammonia source was available for
the month wait).

This is exactly what I would do. By the time I moved them the water
parameter would be about the same. But I never concerned myself with
Nitrates.
--

RM....
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"Tynk" wrote in message
...
On Apr 8, 10:35�pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:52:19 +0000, Gail Futoran wrote:
The 55G has been set up for about a month.
Since I moved plants, driftwood, and decor
from the 20G, the 55G is already cycled.
I.e., ammonia is zero, nitrites are zero, nitrates
are present but low.

Unless you've been adding ammonia, or there are fish already in the
tank,
I don't see how it could be considered cycled. �More likely the
bacteria
that were present on the plants/driftwood/decor have died off from
lack of
nourishment.

If you did have fish in the tank, ignore my concerns. �If not,
swap in
some filter material from the 20G and feed a teaspoon or so a day
of
ammonia for a week. �Then move one or two fish over and see how
the tank
chemistry goes.

I too was wondering about the tank running with live bacteria that
was
moved into the tank, but nothing to feed it for a month.

When I read his post I assumed he cycled it with fish of some kind.
???
How long exactly does the bacteria live without a food source?

I've had LavaRock dry out in the 720g tank filter spring back to
life in less than a week. I believe it doesn't necessarily "die" but
goes dormant until wet and in the presence of ammonia or nitrites.

brevity snips

I would also bump up the water changes on the 20 while those remaing
fish wait for the 55 to cycle (if no ammonia source was available
for
the month wait).

This is exactly what I would do. By the time I moved them the water
parameter would be about the same. But I never concerned myself with
Nitrates.
--

RM....
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

Obviously I expressed myself poorly in
some respects in my original post. My new
55G tank has been "running" - in that it has
had gravel, water, water movement (via a
power filter & a powerhead), decor and some
quantity of plants taken from active tanks - for
a month, but until I got close to thinking about
starting to add fish, I didn't even bother testing
the water.

The plants were doing fine with root tabs &
Flourish Excel, so I saw no need to do testing
until about __a week ago__. At that point
nitrates were present, ammonia & nitrites
were absent. The very definition of a cycled
tank. Thus it has been each day that I have
tested.

My only concern and the only reason I
posted here was the level of nitrates in my
source tank vs the level of nitrates in my
target tank. I've made my decision about that
so I no longer look for a response on that
question.

I hope that clarify matters.

Again, thanks for the responses.

Gail [----female, not male]

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...

Obviously I expressed myself poorly in
some respects in my original post. My new
55G tank has been "running" - in that it has
had gravel, water, water movement (via a
power filter & a powerhead), decor and some
quantity of plants taken from active tanks - for
a month, but until I got close to thinking about
starting to add fish, I didn't even bother testing
the water.

The plants were doing fine with root tabs &
Flourish Excel, so I saw no need to do testing
until about __a week ago__. At that point
nitrates were present, ammonia & nitrites
were absent. The very definition of a cycled
tank. Thus it has been each day that I have
tested.

The nitrates may have come from the RootTabs. Where else would it come from
if no fish are in the tank?


My only concern and the only reason I
posted here was the level of nitrates in my
source tank vs the level of nitrates in my
target tank. I've made my decision about that
so I no longer look for a response on that
question.

I hope that clarify matters.

Again, thanks for the responses.

Gail [----female, not male]

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...

Obviously I expressed myself poorly in
some respects in my original post. My new
55G tank has been "running" - in that it has
had gravel, water, water movement (via a
power filter & a powerhead), decor and some
quantity of plants taken from active tanks - for
a month, but until I got close to thinking about
starting to add fish, I didn't even bother testing
the water.

The plants were doing fine with root tabs &
Flourish Excel, so I saw no need to do testing
until about __a week ago__. At that point
nitrates were present, ammonia & nitrites
were absent. The very definition of a cycled
tank. Thus it has been each day that I have
tested.

The nitrates may have come from the RootTabs. Where else would it
come from if no fish are in the tank?

The plants I moved over from the source
tank.
The decor I moved over from the source
tank.
The WATER I moved over from the
source tank.
And maybe the root tabs contributed. I
don't care how it happened, I just know it
happened.

Yesterday I found four fry in the new tank.
They are undoubtedly from the Glowlight
Tetras in the source tank. Now let's ask
how fry could possibly hatch from eggs and
then survive in a tank that wasn't cycled...

Or let's not.

BTW that's the first time I've seen fry in any
of my tanks. Eggs, sure. The Cory cats lay
them rather frequently, although none hatch
that I've noticed.

So I must be doing something right with my
new tank.

Adult fish are now in the new tank. Nitrates
are present but low, ammonia is zero, nitrites
are zero, yadda yadda.

Gail

There are a number of articles and comments
in forums that refer to using living plants
to help cycle a new tank. To set up my new
55G, I relied heavily on Chuck Gadd's article:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm

I departed from his steps in two ways:
1) I don't do CO2 injection. Instead I used daily
doses of Flourish Excel. And I didn't exactly
overdose the tank, but I did use larger doses than
recommended on occasion. My plants are low
light, easy care plants, nothing that absolutely
requires CO2 injection.

2) I didn't add fish until most of my plants were
in place and the tank had been running for almost a
month, and I didn't start with only algae eaters. In
the first batch of fish I added one Oto plus three
Cory cats and two Glowlight tetras (plus the four
teensy fry that came into the new tank on some
plants). The second batch of fish, added a day later
included two Neon tetras and two more Cory cats.

I still have more stem plants to add, but then I'll be
able to remove some of the floaters to keep them
from blocking light to the lower levels. I.e., the
plant biomass will stay approximately the same.

I haven't seen any algae in the tank that I didn't
bring in from an existing tank (i.e., several Java
Fern leaves have some algae on them), and there
has been no bacterial bloom, but then yesterday
was only my second day of adding fish. I'll wait
a week and monitor water parameters daily before
adding more fish.

I'm aware that cycling is a controversial topic,
but the system I used based on Chuck Gadd's
article appeared to work just fine. I used a
very similar method several years ago when
setting up a new 20G Long tank, with no
problems - and it has the heaviest plant growth
of all my tanks.

In doing research for this post, I learned a new
term: "silent cycling", which is what some people
are using to refer to cycling with plants.

I think I've exhausted anything I have to say on
this subject. I'm going to enjoy my new 55G
and its plants, driftwood and fish.

Gail