moving YoYo loaches & friends

"Tynk" wrote in message
...
On Apr 8, 10:35�pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:52:19 +0000, Gail Futoran wrote:
The 55G has been set up for about a month.
Since I moved plants, driftwood, and decor
from the 20G, the 55G is already cycled.
I.e., ammonia is zero, nitrites are zero, nitrates
are present but low.

Unless you've been adding ammonia, or there are fish already in the tank,
I don't see how it could be considered cycled. �More likely the bacteria
that were present on the plants/driftwood/decor have died off from lack of
nourishment.

If you did have fish in the tank, ignore my concerns. �If not, swap in
some filter material from the 20G and feed a teaspoon or so a day of
ammonia for a week. �Then move one or two fish over and see how the tank
chemistry goes.

I too was wondering about the tank running with live bacteria that was
moved into the tank, but nothing to feed it for a month.

When I read his post I assumed he cycled it with fish of some kind. ???

How long exactly does the bacteria live without a food source?

I've had LavaRock dry out in the 720g tank filter spring back to life in
less than a week. I believe it doesn't necessarily "die" but goes dormant
until wet and in the presence of ammonia or nitrites.

brevity snips

I would also bump up the water changes on the 20 while those remaing
fish wait for the 55 to cycle (if no ammonia source was available for
the month wait).

This is exactly what I would do. By the time I moved them the water
parameter would be about the same. But I never concerned myself with
Nitrates.
--

RM....
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"Tynk" wrote in message
...
On Apr 8, 10:35�pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:52:19 +0000, Gail Futoran wrote:
The 55G has been set up for about a month.
Since I moved plants, driftwood, and decor
from the 20G, the 55G is already cycled.
I.e., ammonia is zero, nitrites are zero, nitrates
are present but low.

Unless you've been adding ammonia, or there are fish already in the
tank,
I don't see how it could be considered cycled. �More likely the
bacteria
that were present on the plants/driftwood/decor have died off from
lack of
nourishment.

If you did have fish in the tank, ignore my concerns. �If not,
swap in
some filter material from the 20G and feed a teaspoon or so a day
of
ammonia for a week. �Then move one or two fish over and see how
the tank
chemistry goes.

I too was wondering about the tank running with live bacteria that
was
moved into the tank, but nothing to feed it for a month.

When I read his post I assumed he cycled it with fish of some kind.
???
How long exactly does the bacteria live without a food source?

I've had LavaRock dry out in the 720g tank filter spring back to
life in less than a week. I believe it doesn't necessarily "die" but
goes dormant until wet and in the presence of ammonia or nitrites.

brevity snips

I would also bump up the water changes on the 20 while those remaing
fish wait for the 55 to cycle (if no ammonia source was available
for
the month wait).

This is exactly what I would do. By the time I moved them the water
parameter would be about the same. But I never concerned myself with
Nitrates.
--

RM....
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

Obviously I expressed myself poorly in
some respects in my original post. My new
55G tank has been "running" - in that it has
had gravel, water, water movement (via a
power filter & a powerhead), decor and some
quantity of plants taken from active tanks - for
a month, but until I got close to thinking about
starting to add fish, I didn't even bother testing
the water.

The plants were doing fine with root tabs &
Flourish Excel, so I saw no need to do testing
until about __a week ago__. At that point
nitrates were present, ammonia & nitrites
were absent. The very definition of a cycled
tank. Thus it has been each day that I have
tested.

My only concern and the only reason I
posted here was the level of nitrates in my
source tank vs the level of nitrates in my
target tank. I've made my decision about that
so I no longer look for a response on that
question.

I hope that clarify matters.

Again, thanks for the responses.

Gail [----female, not male]

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...

Obviously I expressed myself poorly in
some respects in my original post. My new
55G tank has been "running" - in that it has
had gravel, water, water movement (via a
power filter & a powerhead), decor and some
quantity of plants taken from active tanks - for
a month, but until I got close to thinking about
starting to add fish, I didn't even bother testing
the water.

The plants were doing fine with root tabs &
Flourish Excel, so I saw no need to do testing
until about __a week ago__. At that point
nitrates were present, ammonia & nitrites
were absent. The very definition of a cycled
tank. Thus it has been each day that I have
tested.

The nitrates may have come from the RootTabs. Where else would it come from
if no fish are in the tank?


My only concern and the only reason I
posted here was the level of nitrates in my
source tank vs the level of nitrates in my
target tank. I've made my decision about that
so I no longer look for a response on that
question.

I hope that clarify matters.

Again, thanks for the responses.

Gail [----female, not male]

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...

Obviously I expressed myself poorly in
some respects in my original post. My new
55G tank has been "running" - in that it has
had gravel, water, water movement (via a
power filter & a powerhead), decor and some
quantity of plants taken from active tanks - for
a month, but until I got close to thinking about
starting to add fish, I didn't even bother testing
the water.

The plants were doing fine with root tabs &
Flourish Excel, so I saw no need to do testing
until about __a week ago__. At that point
nitrates were present, ammonia & nitrites
were absent. The very definition of a cycled
tank. Thus it has been each day that I have
tested.

The nitrates may have come from the RootTabs. Where else would it
come from if no fish are in the tank?

The plants I moved over from the source
tank.
The decor I moved over from the source
tank.
The WATER I moved over from the
source tank.
And maybe the root tabs contributed. I
don't care how it happened, I just know it
happened.

Yesterday I found four fry in the new tank.
They are undoubtedly from the Glowlight
Tetras in the source tank. Now let's ask
how fry could possibly hatch from eggs and
then survive in a tank that wasn't cycled...

Or let's not.

BTW that's the first time I've seen fry in any
of my tanks. Eggs, sure. The Cory cats lay
them rather frequently, although none hatch
that I've noticed.

So I must be doing something right with my
new tank.

Adult fish are now in the new tank. Nitrates
are present but low, ammonia is zero, nitrites
are zero, yadda yadda.

Gail

There are a number of articles and comments
in forums that refer to using living plants
to help cycle a new tank. To set up my new
55G, I relied heavily on Chuck Gadd's article:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm

I departed from his steps in two ways:
1) I don't do CO2 injection. Instead I used daily
doses of Flourish Excel. And I didn't exactly
overdose the tank, but I did use larger doses than
recommended on occasion. My plants are low
light, easy care plants, nothing that absolutely
requires CO2 injection.

2) I didn't add fish until most of my plants were
in place and the tank had been running for almost a
month, and I didn't start with only algae eaters. In
the first batch of fish I added one Oto plus three
Cory cats and two Glowlight tetras (plus the four
teensy fry that came into the new tank on some
plants). The second batch of fish, added a day later
included two Neon tetras and two more Cory cats.

I still have more stem plants to add, but then I'll be
able to remove some of the floaters to keep them
from blocking light to the lower levels. I.e., the
plant biomass will stay approximately the same.

I haven't seen any algae in the tank that I didn't
bring in from an existing tank (i.e., several Java
Fern leaves have some algae on them), and there
has been no bacterial bloom, but then yesterday
was only my second day of adding fish. I'll wait
a week and monitor water parameters daily before
adding more fish.

I'm aware that cycling is a controversial topic,
but the system I used based on Chuck Gadd's
article appeared to work just fine. I used a
very similar method several years ago when
setting up a new 20G Long tank, with no
problems - and it has the heaviest plant growth
of all my tanks.

In doing research for this post, I learned a new
term: "silent cycling", which is what some people
are using to refer to cycling with plants.

I think I've exhausted anything I have to say on
this subject. I'm going to enjoy my new 55G
and its plants, driftwood and fish.

Gail

On Apr 13, 3:23*am, "Gail Futoran"
wrote:
There are a number of articles and comments
in forums that refer to using living plants
to help cycle a new tank. *To set up my new
55G, I relied heavily on Chuck Gadd's article:http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm

I departed from his steps in two ways:
1) I don't do CO2 injection. *Instead I used daily
doses of Flourish Excel. *And I didn't exactly
overdose the tank, but I did use larger doses than
recommended on occasion. *My plants are low
light, easy care plants, nothing that absolutely
requires CO2 injection.

2) I didn't add fish until most of my plants were
in place and the tank had been running for almost a
month, and I didn't start with only algae eaters. *In
the first batch of fish I added one Oto plus three
Cory cats and two Glowlight tetras (plus the four
teensy fry that came into the new tank on some
plants). *The second batch of fish, added a day later
included two Neon tetras and two more Cory cats.

I still have more stem plants to add, but then I'll be
able to remove some of the floaters to keep them
from blocking light to the lower levels. *I.e., the
plant biomass will stay approximately the same.

I haven't seen any algae in the tank that I didn't
bring in from an existing tank (i.e., several Java
Fern leaves have some algae on them), and there
has been no bacterial bloom, but then yesterday
was only my second day of adding fish. *I'll wait
a week and monitor water parameters daily before
adding more fish.

I'm aware that cycling is a controversial topic,
but the system I used based on Chuck Gadd's
article appeared to work just fine. *I used a
very similar method several years ago when
setting up a new 20G Long tank, with no
problems - and it has the heaviest plant growth
of all my tanks.

In doing research for this post, I learned a new
term: *"silent cycling", which is what some people
are using to refer to cycling with plants.

I think I've exhausted anything I have to say on
this subject. *I'm going to enjoy my new 55G
and its plants, driftwood and fish.

Gail

Whatever works for you is the way to go..As with most everyting there
is not only one way to do it controvosial or not..........
I read somewhere that eggs and fry are perhaps much more hardy than
what they are generally considered to be. We as humans view "baby"
anyhting as vulnerable and weak, but in nature, that is not always
the case. I do have to think that perhaps you would have cory fry as
well as many other fry (from eggs) in your tanks if once the eggs were
laid, all adult fish no matyter what kind they are was removed from
the tank........I have already netted out a tank of fish and left tank
empty or void of any visible "fish" and in some cases even shut off
filtraton and lights, only to find young enjoying themselves at a
later date. I guess your right, if those eggs were transferred over
with gravel or water or plants etc etc, and hatched, I uwld not be
overly concerned with what the waters parameters really are,
especially the nitrates...................

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...
There are a number of articles and comments
in forums that refer to using living plants
to help cycle a new tank. To set up my new
55G, I relied heavily on Chuck Gadd's article:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm

====================
Very interesting article. Thanks.

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"Tynk" wrote in message
...
On Apr 8, 10:35�pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:52:19 +0000, Gail Futoran wrote:
The 55G has been set up for about a month.
Since I moved plants, driftwood, and decor
from the 20G, the 55G is already cycled.
I.e., ammonia is zero, nitrites are zero, nitrates
are present but low.

Unless you've been adding ammonia, or there are fish already in the
tank,
I don't see how it could be considered cycled.
I too was wondering about the tank running with live bacteria that
was
moved into the tank, but nothing to feed it for a month.


Gail,

Just a nerdy thought on this.

Even if your 55G was a sterile new setup, I'd predict the plants you
introduced "should" have been enough of a bacterial seed even though
their population would have been reduced only to the level of what was
needed in the new tank. The reason is the geometric reproductive rate
of bacterial - it really only takes a few for them to be able to
acheive "critical mass" quickly. Excellent water circulation and
careful, graduated introduction of the fish-load (if large) should be
all you'd need to add to the plants for assured success.

Some fun links from people who probably know more about it than I:
http://www.fao.org/ag/agl/agll/ipns/....jsp?term=g025 (nice formula here)
http://www.science.org.au/nova/087/087box02.htm (nice chart here)
http://www.pondenterprises.com/filter/nitrogen.html (bacterial
reproductive rates and more info)

Supplemental quotes (links change so often!):
"Bacteria multiply in geometric progression. The mean generation time
(MGT) for fast growing Rhizobium is 2 - 4 hours, for slow growers 6 -
12 hours and for Azotobacter it is 2 - 3 hours."
"In fresh water [our bacteria] tend to replicate geometrically every 8
hours, salt water slows the reproductive rate to about once every 24
hours."
Good luck!
-Matt