American Flag Fish

"bannor" bannor -at- echoes - net - mind the spam block wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:23:20 -0500, "NetMax"
wrote:
snip

Anyway, Thank YOU NetMax, for your suggestions and help etc... I can't
ever say thanks enough... believe me. This research has been fun and
looks to still be an education!

You're very welcome. I hope I hit the right balance between outlining
some economic issues, without completely discouraging you. I'm sorry
your prospective site didn't work out, but better to have found out
sooner than later.

When I've thought of doing this myself, I considered a hobby farm, on a
river, with an insulated structure which was in relatively close
proximity to a ploughed roadway, and to the river. The lot would need to
be serviced by well/septic (municipal supply for a lot on water would be
too expensive). I'd be pulling most of my water from the river at a
continuous low flow rate through UV filters. Ideally the river would
have enough current so that I could submerge a direct-coupled
water-current driven water pump under the dock, pumping up to water
storage tanks which would need to be close to waterline to keep head
pressure low. I've never seen a direct coupled water-driven water pump,
but I like inventing things ;~). Other than for this application (or
maybe watering gardens), it doesn't have much use, as the head pressure
and/or flow rate would be very low, but for a continuous water changing
system, it should work fine.

I don't think that a river source of water would have any environmental
impact, especially if your waste water went into a field of weeping tiles
(would support a huge vegetable garden ) (always minimizing your costs,
as veggies feed you and your fish).

Since the combination of river water and well water should give you every
fish-water recipe you need, and very little needs to be pumped
well-water, this minimizes your electrical operating costs to part-time
well pump and operating the UV lights (and any secondary pumps needed to
get the water above and to the fish tanks). Heating the fish-room would
probably be by pelleted wood stove (at least for my part of the world).
This is easy to have run continuously to a thermostat by just filling the
hopper. So this makes for a centralized heating system (wood stove), I'd
centralize my lighting (overhead) with inspection lights from the ceiling
(like those used for auto repair), and for filtration, a rotary pump
running air to home-made air-driven sponge filters, one to a tank.

I've skipped lots of details, like using 2 holding tanks, outside tank
uses ambient air to heat cold river water, inside tank for mixing,
diverting and is then heated by indoor ambient (or SS pipes, or roof PVC
tubes) for tank filling and w/c's, - or using custom made plywood or
concrete tanks etc etc (I have trouble shutting up sometimes ;~) What
you might find is that when you are finished, your fish-room might not
have anything in common with your home aquarium, or anything at your LFS
(except for the fish ;~).

I suggest that you pick up a book on the construction of autonomous
housing, and scale the fundaments on water handling, energy conservation
and environmental controls to your operation. There are lots of
money-saving concepts which you can easily be applied to a fish-room, if
you are at the correct latitude (for average outdoor temperatures and
radiant exposure). I mention this because I think that Pennsylvania
could be quite favourable (at least compared to here, Ottawa Canada).

Another alternative is to locate in an old dirty industrial zone, low
taxes, lots of water & electricity, close to airport/bus depots and main
highways (transport costs and shipping times are significant concerns to
this business). Rack & stack tanks to the ceiling. Use centralized
everything almost everywhere and start a trans-shipping business. This
puts you into the network of supplier/buyers (wholesalers) and would
provide you with a veritable cornucopia of exotic fish for re-sale or
breeding stock. However, note that anyone who has gone down this road,
has a) almost completely stopped breeding any fish and b) does not sell
to consumers, so that should tell you something about the economics of
the trade (and I don't think that's your direction). Also consider what
component your walk-in traffic has in your business plan, when choosing a
spot in rural, suburban or industrial locations (I'd go rural edge of
suburbia within 15 minutes of major thoroughfares myself), and (IMHO),
you really need to work a niche as simply as possible to compete.

cheers
NetMax

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:02:08 -0500, "NetMax"
wrote:
"bannor" bannor -at- echoes - net - mind the spam block wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:23:20 -0500, "NetMax"
wrote:
snip
Anyway, Thank YOU NetMax, for your suggestions and help etc... I can't
ever say thanks enough... believe me. This research has been fun and
looks to still be an education!

You're very welcome. I hope I hit the right balance between outlining
some economic issues, without completely discouraging you. I'm sorry
your prospective site didn't work out, but better to have found out
sooner than later.

When I've thought of doing this myself, I considered a hobby farm, on a
river, with an insulated structure which was in relatively close
proximity to a ploughed roadway, and to the river. The lot would need to
be serviced by well/septic (municipal supply for a lot on water would be
too expensive). I'd be pulling most of my water from the river at a
continuous low flow rate through UV filters. Ideally the river would
have enough current so that I could submerge a direct-coupled
water-current driven water pump under the dock, pumping up to water
storage tanks which would need to be close to waterline to keep head
pressure low. I've never seen a direct coupled water-driven water pump,
but I like inventing things ;~). Other than for this application (or
maybe watering gardens), it doesn't have much use, as the head pressure
and/or flow rate would be very low, but for a continuous water changing
system, it should work fine.

I don't think that a river source of water would have any environmental
impact, especially if your waste water went into a field of weeping tiles
(would support a huge vegetable garden ) (always minimizing your costs,
as veggies feed you and your fish).

Since the combination of river water and well water should give you every
fish-water recipe you need, and very little needs to be pumped
well-water, this minimizes your electrical operating costs to part-time
well pump and operating the UV lights (and any secondary pumps needed to
get the water above and to the fish tanks). Heating the fish-room would
probably be by pelleted wood stove (at least for my part of the world).
This is easy to have run continuously to a thermostat by just filling the
hopper. So this makes for a centralized heating system (wood stove), I'd
centralize my lighting (overhead) with inspection lights from the ceiling
(like those used for auto repair), and for filtration, a rotary pump
running air to home-made air-driven sponge filters, one to a tank.

I've skipped lots of details, like using 2 holding tanks, outside tank
uses ambient air to heat cold river water, inside tank for mixing,
diverting and is then heated by indoor ambient (or SS pipes, or roof PVC
tubes) for tank filling and w/c's, - or using custom made plywood or
concrete tanks etc etc (I have trouble shutting up sometimes ;~) What
you might find is that when you are finished, your fish-room might not
have anything in common with your home aquarium, or anything at your LFS
(except for the fish ;~).

I suggest that you pick up a book on the construction of autonomous
housing, and scale the fundaments on water handling, energy conservation
and environmental controls to your operation. There are lots of
money-saving concepts which you can easily be applied to a fish-room, if
you are at the correct latitude (for average outdoor temperatures and
radiant exposure). I mention this because I think that Pennsylvania
could be quite favourable (at least compared to here, Ottawa Canada).

Another alternative is to locate in an old dirty industrial zone, low
taxes, lots of water & electricity, close to airport/bus depots and main
highways (transport costs and shipping times are significant concerns to
this business). Rack & stack tanks to the ceiling. Use centralized
everything almost everywhere and start a trans-shipping business. This
puts you into the network of supplier/buyers (wholesalers) and would
provide you with a veritable cornucopia of exotic fish for re-sale or
breeding stock. However, note that anyone who has gone down this road,
has a) almost completely stopped breeding any fish and b) does not sell
to consumers, so that should tell you something about the economics of
the trade (and I don't think that's your direction). Also consider what
component your walk-in traffic has in your business plan, when choosing a
spot in rural, suburban or industrial locations (I'd go rural edge of
suburbia within 15 minutes of major thoroughfares myself), and (IMHO),
you really need to work a niche as simply as possible to compete.

cheers
NetMax


Wow... I mean WOW... you did it again... as far as I am concerned you
can 'chat' away all you want... those are some really good ideas!

Obviously you have thought about this with serious consideration... as
to the local temps here... where I am, right in the Pocono mountains,
the winters are too cold to use ambient outside air to warm water
enough to really make a difference.

I have been planning on moving south for a few years, soon to turn
into a decade... maybe once I get a few hundred miles farther south I
could consider something along the lines you suggest with the river
water/well water and outside holding tanks...

I guess it is all back to the dreaming stage unless these guys come
down on the price for their property... heck, even the real estate
agent, THEIR real estate agent, said they were nuts asking so much for
the property since they are not maintaining it. they are about 50k
above the local housing values and the house is smaller than the rest
in the neighborhood etc... oh well.. I will keep plugging along and
add some more notes to my research files for when I can find the right
location.

Hey Bannor
FWIW

If you're going large scale you can always get the local municipality
involved, have them fund your water and electricity costs. There is a chap
near to where I live that has a setup like this, he's a breeder and has over
1000 tanks. Our electricity supplier (Eskom) funds all the costs (when he
approached them about this he used the "all in the name of conservation"
line). Bigger companies are usually more than willing to support projects in
"the name on conservation". Take petroleum companies for example (hint),
they're forever getting in the crap over environmental issues, so when
someone approaches them with a conservation plan they usually bite pretty
quickly, it makes them look good (yes Mr. GreenPeace officer, we're sorry
about the countless rural communities we've destroyed in Africa, BUT, we
fund all of these groovy nature conservation projects). It looks very good
on their portfolio.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**


"bannor" bannor -at- echoes - net - mind the spam block wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:02:08 -0500, "NetMax"
wrote:
"bannor" bannor -at- echoes - net - mind the spam block wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:23:20 -0500, "NetMax"
wrote:
snip
Anyway, Thank YOU NetMax, for your suggestions and help etc... I can't
ever say thanks enough... believe me. This research has been fun and
looks to still be an education!

You're very welcome. I hope I hit the right balance between outlining
some economic issues, without completely discouraging you. I'm sorry
your prospective site didn't work out, but better to have found out
sooner than later.

When I've thought of doing this myself, I considered a hobby farm, on a
river, with an insulated structure which was in relatively close
proximity to a ploughed roadway, and to the river. The lot would need to
be serviced by well/septic (municipal supply for a lot on water would be
too expensive). I'd be pulling most of my water from the river at a
continuous low flow rate through UV filters. Ideally the river would
have enough current so that I could submerge a direct-coupled
water-current driven water pump under the dock, pumping up to water
storage tanks which would need to be close to waterline to keep head
pressure low. I've never seen a direct coupled water-driven water pump,
but I like inventing things ;~). Other than for this application (or
maybe watering gardens), it doesn't have much use, as the head pressure
and/or flow rate would be very low, but for a continuous water changing
system, it should work fine.

I don't think that a river source of water would have any environmental
impact, especially if your waste water went into a field of weeping tiles
(would support a huge vegetable garden ) (always minimizing your costs,
as veggies feed you and your fish).

Since the combination of river water and well water should give you every
fish-water recipe you need, and very little needs to be pumped
well-water, this minimizes your electrical operating costs to part-time
well pump and operating the UV lights (and any secondary pumps needed to
get the water above and to the fish tanks). Heating the fish-room would
probably be by pelleted wood stove (at least for my part of the world).
This is easy to have run continuously to a thermostat by just filling the
hopper. So this makes for a centralized heating system (wood stove), I'd
centralize my lighting (overhead) with inspection lights from the ceiling
(like those used for auto repair), and for filtration, a rotary pump
running air to home-made air-driven sponge filters, one to a tank.

I've skipped lots of details, like using 2 holding tanks, outside tank
uses ambient air to heat cold river water, inside tank for mixing,
diverting and is then heated by indoor ambient (or SS pipes, or roof PVC
tubes) for tank filling and w/c's, - or using custom made plywood or
concrete tanks etc etc (I have trouble shutting up sometimes ;~) What
you might find is that when you are finished, your fish-room might not
have anything in common with your home aquarium, or anything at your LFS
(except for the fish ;~).

I suggest that you pick up a book on the construction of autonomous
housing, and scale the fundaments on water handling, energy conservation
and environmental controls to your operation. There are lots of
money-saving concepts which you can easily be applied to a fish-room, if
you are at the correct latitude (for average outdoor temperatures and
radiant exposure). I mention this because I think that Pennsylvania
could be quite favourable (at least compared to here, Ottawa Canada).

Another alternative is to locate in an old dirty industrial zone, low
taxes, lots of water & electricity, close to airport/bus depots and main
highways (transport costs and shipping times are significant concerns to
this business). Rack & stack tanks to the ceiling. Use centralized
everything almost everywhere and start a trans-shipping business. This
puts you into the network of supplier/buyers (wholesalers) and would
provide you with a veritable cornucopia of exotic fish for re-sale or
breeding stock. However, note that anyone who has gone down this road,
has a) almost completely stopped breeding any fish and b) does not sell
to consumers, so that should tell you something about the economics of
the trade (and I don't think that's your direction). Also consider what
component your walk-in traffic has in your business plan, when choosing a
spot in rural, suburban or industrial locations (I'd go rural edge of
suburbia within 15 minutes of major thoroughfares myself), and (IMHO),
you really need to work a niche as simply as possible to compete.

cheers
NetMax


Wow... I mean WOW... you did it again... as far as I am concerned you
can 'chat' away all you want... those are some really good ideas!

Obviously you have thought about this with serious consideration... as
to the local temps here... where I am, right in the Pocono mountains,
the winters are too cold to use ambient outside air to warm water
enough to really make a difference.

I have been planning on moving south for a few years, soon to turn
into a decade... maybe once I get a few hundred miles farther south I
could consider something along the lines you suggest with the river
water/well water and outside holding tanks...

I guess it is all back to the dreaming stage unless these guys come
down on the price for their property... heck, even the real estate
agent, THEIR real estate agent, said they were nuts asking so much for
the property since they are not maintaining it. they are about 50k
above the local housing values and the house is smaller than the rest
in the neighborhood etc... oh well.. I will keep plugging along and
add some more notes to my research files for when I can find the right
location.

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 15:41:46 +0200, "Happy'Cam'per" wrote:

Hey Bannor
FWIW

If you're going large scale you can always get the local municipality
involved, have them fund your water and electricity costs. There is a chap
near to where I live that has a setup like this, he's a breeder and has over
1000 tanks. Our electricity supplier (Eskom) funds all the costs (when he
approached them about this he used the "all in the name of conservation"
line). Bigger companies are usually more than willing to support projects in
"the name on conservation". Take petroleum companies for example (hint),
they're forever getting in the crap over environmental issues, so when
someone approaches them with a conservation plan they usually bite pretty
quickly, it makes them look good (yes Mr. GreenPeace officer, we're sorry
about the countless rural communities we've destroyed in Africa, BUT, we
fund all of these groovy nature conservation projects). It looks very good
on their portfolio.

You know, that's a damn good idea too!

I will keep that in mind... would have to word it properly... like
suggest that I could be helping to save some lake tangeneka fish from
being completely wiped out or something... would just have to make
sure that I kept those fish in 'stock' so to speak...

Geeze... you go to the net, and just ask for a lil' help and boy what
do you get in return!

Now, of course, my mind is spinning again.. which probably means that
I won't be getting any sleep tonight as I dream of this and dream of
that plan to try to get this real dream of a LFS actually on it's
feet!

I won't be getting any sleep tonight as I dream of this and dream of
that plan to try to get this real dream of a LFS actually on it's
feet!

Build it, and they will come...
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**