Fish sensitivity to pump vibrations?

The sense I'm starting to get from the group is that airstones aren't all
that popular. I have a few in my 75gal, and like them, but if they aren't
a good idea I suppose that I could just remove them. I recently buried
all of them under polished river stones to slow down the flow a bit, do
you think that makes any noticeable difference to the noise level in the
tank?

I know this is a huge can of worms I'm opening, but the other "sense of
the group" I get is that most people think that canister filters are much
better than hang on the back power filters, like the AquaClear I use. Is
there a simple reason why canisters are so superior?

--chris



On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, NetMax wrote:

Finally, someone who agrees with me. Aquariums are far noisier
environments than they should be. Much of the pneumatic hammering is
from your airstone and may have very little in common with the audio
volume from your airpump. Multi-diaphram pumps would be better if they
operated in sequence, but they operate in tandem, in opposite directions
(to reduce pump vibration) which probably worsens the effect inside the
tank. Whatever air pump you choose to use a damping chamber would
probably help, but it hasn't been invented yet (sealed 300cc container
with airline connections on either end and loose baffling material
inside).


NB: This email address is dead. If you would like to email me directly,
please use: cpalmaATSYMBOLastro.psu.edu

Chris Palma wrote in message ...

The sense I'm starting to get from the group is that airstones aren't all
that popular. I have a few in my 75gal, and like them, but if they aren't
a good idea I suppose that I could just remove them. I recently buried
all of them under polished river stones to slow down the flow a bit, do
you think that makes any noticeable difference to the noise level in the
tank?

I know this is a huge can of worms I'm opening, but the other "sense of
the group" I get is that most people think that canister filters are much
better than hang on the back power filters, like the AquaClear I use. Is
there a simple reason why canisters are so superior?

--chris



On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, NetMax wrote:

Finally, someone who agrees with me. Aquariums are far noisier
environments than they should be. Much of the pneumatic hammering is
from your airstone and may have very little in common with the audio
volume from your airpump. Multi-diaphram pumps would be better if they
operated in sequence, but they operate in tandem, in opposite directions
(to reduce pump vibration) which probably worsens the effect inside the
tank. Whatever air pump you choose to use a damping chamber would
probably help, but it hasn't been invented yet (sealed 300cc container
with airline connections on either end and loose baffling material
inside).


NB: This email address is dead. If you would like to email me directly,
please use: cpalmaATSYMBOLastro.psu.edu


really, the best solution seems to be to get the filtration/air out of the
tank altogether and use a sump system. It seems to me to be the way to go if
you are serious. the other advantage is that I am filtering around $250
gallons of water for the cost of a large container and a water pump that
cost me around $100 Australian, total cost around $160. cheaper and better!

"Chris Palma" wrote in message
...

The sense I'm starting to get from the group is that airstones aren't
all
that popular. I have a few in my 75gal, and like them, but if they
aren't
a good idea I suppose that I could just remove them. I recently buried
all of them under polished river stones to slow down the flow a bit, do
you think that makes any noticeable difference to the noise level in
the
tank?

All these components have their pros & cons, and airstones might be noise
generators. Put your ear to the tank and listen to the difference
between off and on. If your pump is quiet and/or the tank is large, then
there might be little difference. There are many benefits to airstones,
so I wouldn't want to discourage their use without pointing out pros &
cons. They do boost the O2 level, though it's less than originally
thought. The help with circulation, especially in areas which might be
hard to reach with an outside filter. They break up the surface protein
layer and help re-oxygenation at the surface. They can be almost
essential in high fish-load tanks. The biggest drawback to them is that
somewhere you need an airpump, which can be noisy for you. Being noisy
for fish is not a frequently discussed topic, as posts tend to gravitate
around water problems, diseases and compatability.

I know this is a huge can of worms I'm opening, but the other "sense of
the group" I get is that most people think that canister filters are
much
better than hang on the back power filters, like the AquaClear I use.
Is
there a simple reason why canisters are so superior?

Again, all these components have their pros & cons. It's not about
canister vs powerfilter, as there are many filter technologies like FBs,
UGFs, RUGFs, wet/dry etc. Generally, the greater the surface area of
filtration media, the less servicing you need to do. The further the
filter is away from the tank, the more flexibility you will have (tank
right against the wall, hoses direct flow, motor noise can be isolated
etc). The bigger (or more compartmented) the filter is, the more options
you have for massaging the water parameters. The slower the flow rate,
the better the biological & chemical filtration.

Is a canister filter better than a powerfilter (Penquin, AquaClear etc)?
In most applications, yes, especially in efficiency, but - it depends on
how you define 'which is better'. The canister is more expensive and it
provides features or capabilities which you may not need. Most people
with multiple tanks have an arsenal of filters, including both types. If
you were to compare the value of a powerfilter to a canister, (and by
value, I'm taking the (extra efficiency + features you will use) and
dividing by the purchase cost), then the best value would be (imo), an
AquaClear filter. As soon as you need a feature provided by a canister
(ie: another compartment for sintered glass, putting the tank flat
against the wall, longer servicing interval etc), then you swallow hard,
pay more money and know that the overall efficiency will be better which
is good for you and for the fish. If you don't need a feature not
provided by your powerfilter, and your tank is well balanced, not
underfiltered, your maintenance routine is long established, then why
would you change?

All this talk about filters, remember, it's mostly all opinions ;~)
NetMax

--chris
snip

They do boost the O2 level, though it's less than originally
thought. The help with circulation, especially in areas which might be
hard to reach with an outside filter. They break up the surface
protein layer and help re-oxygenation at the surface.

I can't agree with you more on breaking up the surface protein layer. I
had a kinda ugly layer before I added the air-wand to my tank. No trace
of it now:-). Also the fishes seem to enjoy swimming through it, and
floating up in it.

Josh

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Chris Palma" wrote in message

...

The sense I'm starting to get from the group is that airstones aren't
all
that popular. I have a few in my 75gal, and like them, but if they
aren't
a good idea I suppose that I could just remove them. I recently buried
all of them under polished river stones to slow down the flow a bit, do
you think that makes any noticeable difference to the noise level in
the
tank?

All these components have their pros & cons, and airstones might be noise
generators. Put your ear to the tank and listen to the difference
between off and on. If your pump is quiet and/or the tank is large, then
there might be little difference. There are many benefits to airstones,
so I wouldn't want to discourage their use without pointing out pros &
cons. They do boost the O2 level, though it's less than originally
thought. The help with circulation, especially in areas which might be
hard to reach with an outside filter. They break up the surface protein
layer and help re-oxygenation at the surface. They can be almost
essential in high fish-load tanks. The biggest drawback to them is that
somewhere you need an airpump, which can be noisy for you. Being noisy
for fish is not a frequently discussed topic, as posts tend to gravitate
around water problems, diseases and compatability.

Indeed they do. :-) Are NetMax and I the only ones worried about our fish
being physically fit as a fiddle, but mentally they're being driven up the
wall (or side of fish tank) by the torture of a constant buzzing. I've seen
the film The Ipcress File - I'd hate to be subjecting my fish to that!

So, I'm not really worried about the o2 levels, circulation etc. (Ok - the
truth is: I am - but not for this particular posting!) What I was interested
in is if there's any scientific evidence for the actual volume levels and
the effect of the constant buzzing on the fish. From what I'm reading, the
answer to both questions seems to be "not that we're aware of"? That's OK -
I'll carry on searching as I'm sure there must be something.

The "hot topic", however, seems to be the solution to the problem (if indeed
there is a problem in the first place). Again, the order of the day here is
"quiet" as opposed the GPM, o2, circulation etc etc. I think I'm right in
saying that the consensus is to get an external pump and filter? If so, any
recommendations on good makes, thinks to look out for and so on?

Cheers
Mark


I know this is a huge can of worms I'm opening, but the other "sense of
the group" I get is that most people think that canister filters are
much
better than hang on the back power filters, like the AquaClear I use.
Is
there a simple reason why canisters are so superior?

Again, all these components have their pros & cons. It's not about
canister vs powerfilter, as there are many filter technologies like FBs,
UGFs, RUGFs, wet/dry etc. Generally, the greater the surface area of
filtration media, the less servicing you need to do. The further the
filter is away from the tank, the more flexibility you will have (tank
right against the wall, hoses direct flow, motor noise can be isolated
etc). The bigger (or more compartmented) the filter is, the more options
you have for massaging the water parameters. The slower the flow rate,
the better the biological & chemical filtration.

Is a canister filter better than a powerfilter (Penquin, AquaClear etc)?
In most applications, yes, especially in efficiency, but - it depends on
how you define 'which is better'. The canister is more expensive and it
provides features or capabilities which you may not need. Most people
with multiple tanks have an arsenal of filters, including both types. If
you were to compare the value of a powerfilter to a canister, (and by
value, I'm taking the (extra efficiency + features you will use) and
dividing by the purchase cost), then the best value would be (imo), an
AquaClear filter. As soon as you need a feature provided by a canister
(ie: another compartment for sintered glass, putting the tank flat
against the wall, longer servicing interval etc), then you swallow hard,
pay more money and know that the overall efficiency will be better which
is good for you and for the fish. If you don't need a feature not
provided by your powerfilter, and your tank is well balanced, not
underfiltered, your maintenance routine is long established, then why
would you change?

All this talk about filters, remember, it's mostly all opinions ;~)
NetMax

--chris
snip

"Mark" wrote in message
...

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Chris Palma" wrote in message


...

The sense I'm starting to get from the group is that airstones
aren't
all
that popular. I have a few in my 75gal, and like them, but if they
aren't
a good idea I suppose that I could just remove them.

snipped for brevity

Being noisy
for fish is not a frequently discussed topic, as posts tend to
gravitate
around water problems, diseases and compatability.

Indeed they do. :-) Are NetMax and I the only ones worried about our
fish
being physically fit as a fiddle, but mentally they're being driven up
the
wall (or side of fish tank) by the torture of a constant buzzing. I've
seen
the film The Ipcress File - I'd hate to be subjecting my fish to that!

Not at all. This is where to come for information on a complete variety
of fish-husbandry topics. Once something is brought to light, I'm sure
many lurkers go back to their aquarium to 'check it out'. Speaking of
being brought to 'light' another peeve of mine is people who turn on the
tank lights in a dark room. Since fish have no eyelids, the sudden light
is quite a shock. I'm not a fish-hugger (that would be tough to do ;~),
but some common sense can go a long way to making the creatures in our
charge more comfortable.

So, I'm not really worried about the o2 levels, circulation etc. (Ok -
the
truth is: I am - but not for this particular posting!) What I was
interested
in is if there's any scientific evidence for the actual volume levels
and
the effect of the constant buzzing on the fish. From what I'm reading,
the
answer to both questions seems to be "not that we're aware of"? That's
OK -
I'll carry on searching as I'm sure there must be something.

Do post back anything interesting you come across. I just go by
observation, but I have no comparative levels to reference.

The "hot topic", however, seems to be the solution to the problem (if
indeed
there is a problem in the first place). Again, the order of the day
here is
"quiet" as opposed the GPM, o2, circulation etc etc. I think I'm right
in
saying that the consensus is to get an external pump and filter? If so,
any
recommendations on good makes, thinks to look out for and so on?

On canister filters, there isn't (imo) any current models which need to
be avoided because of some horrible defect or characteristic. Pick a
unit which will comfortably take care of your fish-load (though the
filters are sized to tank volume). Check what the unit includes as even
identical models can be packaged differently (you can discover that the
one on sale didn't include shut-off valves, filtration media etc, and
actually comes out more expensive). Watch for running costs for
proprietary filtration media which is replaced periodically. On-line
purchasing & LFS sales/liquidations seem to be the best places/times to
buy, with a marginal increase in risk. Used canisters are much more
risky, as there has historically been a few problems and even today
occasionally a unit has a mis-tolerance on the mating parts of the
casings or a fitting, resulting in some type of leak (much less frequent
today though). Otherwise, everyone can chirp up for their favorite
filter ), but that gets very subjective ;~). Objective credibility
suffers when you only own one filter and it's your favorite, and your
basis for dissing another manufacturer is because you know someone who
didn't like it ;~)

On the point of noise, I think all the canisters are an order of
magnitude quieter than an airstone, so the difference between
manufacturers might be of no significance. It is also difficult to
measure. As example, I currently have in my livingroom an Eheim 2213 and
a Fluval 304 running (about 10 feet away from each other). Standing at a
point between them (and concentrating hard), I hear the Eheim more, but
the Eheim's harder plastic case and/or the construction of the cabinet it
is in, makes the actual noise source, the cabinet. Listening a few
inches from the filters, the Fluval is slightly louder. Listening with
my ear on the tank, the Eheim is louder, but again, there are the
variables of tank dimensions etc, and this assumes that a fish's hearing
range was comparable to my own. Suffice to say, canister acoustics might
be a mute point.

An interesting variable for someone with more time & interest than I
have, is that my Fluval uses a corrogated hose, while my Eheim uses a
smooth hose (originally I wasn't keen on using a corrogated hose as I
thought it would create more resistance, but after using them, I think
the extra turbulence inside, and the fact that they are opaque, keeps
them cleaner far longer). On the topic of noise, a corrogated hose would
(I think) create noise as the water flowed over the ridges, however the
motor noise from the filter would be attenuated by these ridges, so
perhaps the noisier hose gives you a quieter tank?!

ps: In an earlier life, I designed sound suppresion equipment, but I'm
having trouble drawing parallels to underwater applications.
NetMax

Cheers
Mark
snip

[snip]

Not at all. This is where to come for information on a complete variety
of fish-husbandry topics. Once something is brought to light, I'm sure
many lurkers go back to their aquarium to 'check it out'. Speaking of
being brought to 'light' another peeve of mine is people who turn on the
tank lights in a dark room. Since fish have no eyelids, the sudden light
is quite a shock. I'm not a fish-hugger (that would be tough to do ;~),
but some common sense can go a long way to making the creatures in our
charge more comfortable.

So, I'm not really worried about the o2 levels, circulation etc. (Ok -
the
truth is: I am - but not for this particular posting!) What I was
interested
in is if there's any scientific evidence for the actual volume levels
and
the effect of the constant buzzing on the fish. From what I'm reading,
the
answer to both questions seems to be "not that we're aware of"? That's
OK -
I'll carry on searching as I'm sure there must be something.

Do post back anything interesting you come across. I just go by
observation, but I have no comparative levels to reference.

Will do. Thanks for the input so far. It's been a fascinating converstion
and I must say that I'm surprised that there aren't more people having this
conversion. Perhaps the majority are more interested in having an impressive
looking tank that they can impress their friends with than the genuine
wellbeing of the fish? :-)


The "hot topic", however, seems to be the solution to the problem (if
indeed
there is a problem in the first place). Again, the order of the day
here is
"quiet" as opposed the GPM, o2, circulation etc etc. I think I'm right
in
saying that the consensus is to get an external pump and filter? If so,
any
recommendations on good makes, thinks to look out for and so on?

On canister filters, there isn't (imo) any current models which need to
be avoided because of some horrible defect or characteristic. Pick a
unit which will comfortably take care of your fish-load (though the
filters are sized to tank volume). Check what the unit includes as even
identical models can be packaged differently (you can discover that the
one on sale didn't include shut-off valves, filtration media etc, and
actually comes out more expensive). Watch for running costs for
proprietary filtration media which is replaced periodically. On-line
purchasing & LFS sales/liquidations seem to be the best places/times to
buy, with a marginal increase in risk. Used canisters are much more
risky, as there has historically been a few problems and even today
occasionally a unit has a mis-tolerance on the mating parts of the
casings or a fitting, resulting in some type of leak (much less frequent
today though). Otherwise, everyone can chirp up for their favorite
filter ), but that gets very subjective ;~). Objective credibility
suffers when you only own one filter and it's your favorite, and your
basis for dissing another manufacturer is because you know someone who
didn't like it ;~)

Canister filter sound good to me (if you'll excuse the pun)!


On the point of noise, I think all the canisters are an order of
magnitude quieter than an airstone, so the difference between
manufacturers might be of no significance. It is also difficult to
measure. As example, I currently have in my livingroom an Eheim 2213 and
a Fluval 304 running (about 10 feet away from each other). Standing at a
point between them (and concentrating hard), I hear the Eheim more, but
the Eheim's harder plastic case and/or the construction of the cabinet it
is in, makes the actual noise source, the cabinet. Listening a few
inches from the filters, the Fluval is slightly louder. Listening with
my ear on the tank, the Eheim is louder, but again, there are the
variables of tank dimensions etc, and this assumes that a fish's hearing
range was comparable to my own. Suffice to say, canister acoustics might
be a mute point.

An interesting variable for someone with more time & interest than I
have, is that my Fluval uses a corrogated hose, while my Eheim uses a
smooth hose (originally I wasn't keen on using a corrogated hose as I
thought it would create more resistance, but after using them, I think
the extra turbulence inside, and the fact that they are opaque, keeps
them cleaner far longer). On the topic of noise, a corrogated hose would
(I think) create noise as the water flowed over the ridges, however the
motor noise from the filter would be attenuated by these ridges, so
perhaps the noisier hose gives you a quieter tank?!

ps: In an earlier life, I designed sound suppresion equipment, but I'm
having trouble drawing parallels to underwater applications.
NetMax

That's a whole lot of experience that you've got that I don't so I'm not
going to question you're judgement. :-)

Cheers
Mark