How do I avoid algae in a deep plantless tank ?

In message , NetMax
writes
my question snipped
Anchor a sprig of Hornwort to some rockwork. With time, it will slowly
expand to fill the surface, providing 3 functions. It acts as a nitrate
sponge (reducing your water change requirements), it shades the rocks and
substrate (reducing the algae there), it provides an unobtrusive place
for algae to grow (on older sections of the Hornwort which can be easily
mechanically removed and thrown away),

OK, my only concern at this stage is that if it's going to provide
shade, then my tank will be even darker than it is now. I was hoping to
up the lighting levels as it looks a bit gloomy at the moment.

How does Hornwort compare in effectiveness to Java Moss ? I have a fair
bit in there at the moment. My other tank seems to be growing it faster
than the cichlids in this tank can eat it, so I have a ready supply.
Would this do the same job ? It has the advantage that it can easily be
stuffed in cracks to anchor it and it doesn't seem to drop bits.

and it provides a more secure
ambient for the mbuna (similar to the effect of having ditherfish).

Do I need ditherfish ? No-one suggested that to me when setting up the
tank. It was always a cichlid-only set up.

I have quite a lot of hiding places for the fish, perhaps too many !!
Would that provide enough of a secure feeling for them, or are the
ditherfish important ?

Thanx for the advice

--
Alan Silver
PSG Fish Tanks - http://fish.alansilver.co.uk/

"Alan Silver" wrote in message
...
In message , NetMax
writes
my question snipped
Anchor a sprig of Hornwort to some rockwork. With time, it will
slowly
expand to fill the surface, providing 3 functions. It acts as a
nitrate
sponge (reducing your water change requirements), it shades the rocks
and
substrate (reducing the algae there), it provides an unobtrusive place
for algae to grow (on older sections of the Hornwort which can be
easily
mechanically removed and thrown away),

OK, my only concern at this stage is that if it's going to provide
shade, then my tank will be even darker than it is now. I was hoping to
up the lighting levels as it looks a bit gloomy at the moment.

I went to visit your site to see the size of the fish and the colour of
the gravel used. I must tell you that you did a fabulous job of
documenting the project and the end result is gorgous. I never did find
pictures of your current fish (and I'll assume your substrate is still
light), but I enjoyed reading through your exploits.

You are running two 20 or 30W tubes over 60g with a depth of 24". I can
see how you think that it's dim. Hornwort would still grow, but would
not be a good solution for you. Are your water parameters extreme at
all? Vallesneria would not shade the bottom as much. The Jungle Val
might reach the surface, but most other types (Spiralis, Corkscrew,
Americanis) would not. What cichlids do you have and what are their
sizes. If they didn't eat the plants, then you just need to protect them
from being dug out (I say 'just' with tongue in cheek ;~). Small clay
pots will do wonders protecting the root network from side intrusions. A
few river stones of the correct size could protect against top access.
Some Vals are indigenous to the Rift lakes.

How does Hornwort compare in effectiveness to Java Moss ? I have a fair
bit in there at the moment. My other tank seems to be growing it faster
than the cichlids in this tank can eat it, so I have a ready supply.
Would this do the same job ? It has the advantage that it can easily be
stuffed in cracks to anchor it and it doesn't seem to drop bits.

I'm not sure how you want the comparison done. Java moss is a fern, with
the usual fern characteristics, primarily slower growing and needing to
be above the substrate, attached to surfaces. If you have it growing
well, then continue harvesting it. When you have too much, you will
notice that you need something of a different color and texture to
compliment it.

I keep Java ferns with Africans. The windolov variety does not do as
well, but my water is very hard. There is a variety of bog plants which
work well, as they have very thick leaves, and since they are not going
to prosper long term anyways, I don't care if they occasionally get dug
up.

I think your most sound approach to algae control will be a bristlenose
pleco. Regular water changes to keep your NO3 levels low help, but are
rarely sufficient on their own. Depending on the space in your lighting
canopy, directed lights could be pointed right down to the bottom of the
tank (right now your sides get the most light starting with their tops).
If you want to go with your existing lighting effects, you can press
stainless steel staples into the structure and with some thread, attach
Anubius or Java ferns to the staples. Filling the upper portion of the
background with plants will hide algae growth there, help remove
nutrients from the water and capitilize on your light conditions.

The slime algae on the bottom of the tank is another issue. I get that
even with high light African tanks, creeping across coral substrate. I
haven't taken any direct action and it comes & goes (usually up my
python). It's probably cynobacteria (not algae). Try directing your
filter's water flow to the substrate as it does poorly in currents.
There are other more aggressive solutions if it comes to it.

and it provides a more secure
ambient for the mbuna (similar to the effect of having ditherfish).

Do I need ditherfish ? No-one suggested that to me when setting up the
tank. It was always a cichlid-only set up.

I have quite a lot of hiding places for the fish, perhaps too many !!
Would that provide enough of a secure feeling for them, or are the
ditherfish important ?

Aha, I found the fish listed in your diary. The Labidochromis Caeruleus
are not herbivores, so your only concern is that they will dig out
plants. These are actually fairly well behaved fish (on the Rift lake
scale ;~). I've no personal experince with your particular Metriaclima,
but most of these are AFAIK, fairly aggressive herbivores (though I think
this fellow is mild for his Genus's reputation). A lot will depend on
the overall mix you have (competing fish, sex ratio etc). I'm not at all
familiar with the Pseudotropheus Newsi (Maylandia heteropicta ?), but
Pseudotropheus lombardoi behavior is well known ;~). Don't you just
love Rift lake nomenclature? You have quite an eclectic mix, almost
guaranteed to create little hybrids of something or another ;~)

I would as soon as possible, bring your stocking levels to your final
tally (before they get too established). You do not have the luxury of
being able to re-arrange your rocks to reset their territories and
pecking order. Permanent caves, as you have constucted is very ambitious
(your entire project was quite ambitious and very well done). Permanent
caves with mbuna make the removal of fish extremely complicated, so the
best initial recipe becomes more critical. A certain degree of mortality
will be unavoidable.

I just noticed your diary dates, and these fish have been in there a
month, so unless they are all quite small juveniles, you might want to
leave the stock level of Africans alone. Dither fish will certainly add
activity at the upper level (which might be quite barren right now).
Which type of dither depends on your water parameters, tank dimensions,
age and tolerance of your Africans etc. Since the tank is deep, the
chances are good that the Africans will generally leave the dither alone
(too far from their normal activities). As the tank is not long, your
are somewhat restricted away from really long fish (Giant danios, Congo
tetras) or very fast fish (Monos). Depending on your water conditions,
you can look at some of the smaller rainbowfish (harder water) to the
tetra,/rasbora/danio groups (neutral water). If you wanted to be a bit
radical, a dozen Tiger barbs and a dozen Silver hatchetfish would stir
things up. Add them at the same time. Adding only Hatchetfish might
elicite far too much curiosity from the Africans. The Silvers reach an
acceptable size (2.5-3" depending on exact species), and if they
survived, they would provide an interesting top layer. Tiger barbs are
everywhere in a tank, but the Africans would push them into the
mid-water, creating your 2nd layer. Some Synodontis catfish could be
your bottom layer #4, providing a nice contrast of brown & black on white
substrate. Another option, to replace the Tiger barb/Hatchetfish combo
is something like Scissortail rasboras. These get to a respectable size
and are quick (and cheap if there is some predation, though if predation
starts, it usually gets worse, defeating the effort).

I tend to get artistic when stocking tanks ;~), running roughshod over
country boundaries. You might not want or have water suitable for crazy
fish mixtures. Any dither you add will be at significant risk initially,
so ymmv. Adding a larger quantity of fast adult dither and having the
Africans as young as possible are two factors which will improve your
odds.

In regards to your question as to whether you _need_ ditherfish,
generally yes, but not always. Dither is a fish in the open, which by
its presence, indicates that the area is safe, or if there was an attack
(ie: birds) then they would be the first victim (which is why ditherfish
are sometimes called targetfish). African mbuna are high strung and
continuously on the watch for any attacks (from just about every
direction except below). The presence of fish swimming back & forth
above them (seemingly with no cares in the world), has a relaxing effect
on the Africans, so all they fear is each other (and if they were raised
from juveniles together, then that familiarity also provides some measure
of confidence and comfort). In an overstocked mbuna tank, where there is
more fish than caves, the population pressure pushes enough fish into the
open that they become their own dither (so no ditherfish is needed or
even desirable). In an understocked tank, you might find mbuna will play
a lot of hide & go seek with you, with just their heads poking out of
caves. In your set-up, just having top dither (ie: Hatchets) might not
be sufficient (if your caves are all very low), which is why I also
suggested Tiger barbs for a mid-tank dither. hth

NetMax

Thanx for the advice

--
Alan Silver
PSG Fish Tanks - http://fish.alansilver.co.uk/