cleaning second hand tank

On Sat, 15 May 2004 00:45:41 +1000, "Desmond Wong"
bubbled forth the following:

Hi,

Any ideas on the best way to clean a second hand tank? I have aquired one,
and found that because the previous owner kept it only half full, the bottom
half of the tank is quite clean, but the top half has this white film-like
substance on it.

I have tried using water and a razor blade, doesn't seem to lift. What would
be safe to use on it to rid this stuff?

Des.

I had a similar problem with an old MetaFrame 30 Long (44L x 14H x
13W) a friend gave me. Only 1/3 full of water for most of a year, the
top 2/3 of the tank was very crusty. Most of it scraped off with a
razor blade, but the last bit of film/cloudiness wouldn't go away.
Vinegar, CLR, hydrochloric acid, sulfamic acid, nothing would remove
the film/cloudiness. There were also a few deep scratches where
gravel had been scraped up the side of the glass, and numerous faint
scratches, the kind that are visible, but can't be felt

I finally realized that the mineral deposits had actually etched the
glass. I went to the local rock shop, bought a small bag of cerium
oxide(have 90% left), an 8" leather polishing pad (I would recommend
felt rather than leather), and a tube of feathering disk adhesive to
stick the (trimmed) pad to a 5" backing plate for my electric drill.
About $15 total, $8 of that was for the tube of adhesive (big enough
to do a couple hundred tanks at least, but I can use for woodworking
projects, so it will get used).

Mix up a paste of the cerium oxide with water about the viscosity of
hot maple syrup, and polish away, keeping the surface wet with a spray
bottle. The cut off pieces of the pad can be wrapped around a stick or
used with a dremel tool to get in the corners.

It took about 45 minutes to remove the cloudiness from the 4 side
panels, as well as polishing out the small scratches, and another 20
minutes doing the outside glass and the stainless steel frame.

The deeper scratches didn't come out, but the edges were smoothed out
so they don't catch the light as much making them less visible. I
would need to start with a much coarser grinding compound to remove
them -- they weren't bad enough to spend the time grinding out, plus
it would weaken the glass more than just leaving them as is.

Rinse the tank very thoroughly, then wipe it down with damp paper
towels to remove the cerium oxide. I don't think it would be poisonous
to the fish, but it is a very fine powder that if left in the water
could irritate the fish's gills.

The end result? When the guy who gave me the tank saw it after I had
set it up, his first question was "How much did it cost to replace the
glass?" It actually came out better than I thought it would.

HTH

Jerry

On Sat, 15 May 2004 00:45:41 +1000, "Desmond Wong"
wrote:

Hi,

Any ideas on the best way to clean a second hand tank? I have aquired one,
and found that because the previous owner kept it only half full, the bottom
half of the tank is quite clean, but the top half has this white film-like
substance on it.

I have tried using water and a razor blade, doesn't seem to lift. What would
be safe to use on it to rid this stuff?

Des.

As you can tell from all the suggestions, cleaning mineral deposits is
major problem. I have tried most of the ideas, some times they work
and in other cases not.

Is the film noticeable when the tank is full? I have a line along the
top that I see when I change water, but I can't see it when water
covers it up.

CLR

"Desmond Wong" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Any ideas on the best way to clean a second hand tank? I have aquired one,
and found that because the previous owner kept it only half full, the
bottom
half of the tank is quite clean, but the top half has this white film-like
substance on it.

I have tried using water and a razor blade, doesn't seem to lift. What
would
be safe to use on it to rid this stuff?

Des.

"Desmond Wong" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Any ideas on the best way to clean a second hand tank? I have aquired
one,
and found that because the previous owner kept it only half full, the
bottom
half of the tank is quite clean, but the top half has this white
film-like
substance on it.

I have tried using water and a razor blade, doesn't seem to lift. What
would
be safe to use on it to rid this stuff?

Des.

Wow, you sure got a lot of good responses. This must be a topic everyone
has lots of experience to share. With so many responses, I might just
stop posting my comments, - not ;~). In case anything was missed, here
is an old reprint of a post I wrote on the topic:

Depending on the chemical composition of the stain, and the quantity of
build-up, you might find vinegar useless, but it's a good first choice as
it is easy to deal with residues. There is a wide variety of techniques,
some more appropriate for glass tops, rather than to try using inside the
aquarium as their toxicity increases with their cleaning power. Other
methods I have read of besides vinegar (white distilled works best), are
salt (kosher salt more abrasive on stains), lime Kool-Aid? (half the
water & no sugar), dish soap (contains acid) with nylon scouring pads,
bleach, CLR, lime away, tile cleaners, #000 (fine) steel wool, razor
blades, sulphamic acid, and muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid). A search
on the internet will also turn up an assortment of miracle products which
will peel the paint off your barn door at 20 metres ;~)

Note that all the mechanical methods (razor blades, steel wool, scouring
pads) pose some risk of abrasion, if not from what you are holding, then
from the deposits you are trying to remove if they get trapped in
between.

The more aggressive the solvent used, the more hazardous the work. If
you go as far as using strong acids, it's prudent to be prepared for any
spillage. One poster suggested baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to
neutralize any spills, "if you dissolve a couple of cups in a gallon of
water you can immediately neutralize spills on your equipment or skin ;
straight powdered baking soda may react violently with concentrated acid
and splatter you or nearby friends". Wear glasses, please, goggles if
you have them. From vinegar to muriatic acid, none work instantly, so be
prepared to let them soak as necessary.

Many of these suggested treatments were pulled from the Google usenet
archives (I personally have no special tricks, and I haven't tried all
these treatments). Another option for top plates with hard water stains,
is to drop them off at a glass supplier. He will measure and provide you
with duplicates. Use a little clear silicone & rubber handled clamps to
fasten the retaining edges back on. The glass is typically quite thin,
so the material is not very expensive.

cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

Thanks for all the messages everyone.

I had tried vinegar to no luck with these stains... I have found out that
these marks have been there for about 2 years or so and never cleaned.

I have also used CLR with no luck, even UNDILUTED (I know, a bad thing to
do) and washed off excessively it still has left the marks on the tank, it
appears
to have made no difference to the appearance.

I will see how a very light coating of stove cleaner will go on it tomorrow,
obviously washed out very well afterward. I am preparing the tank for
probably about 2 months away, so plenty of time to do many rinses and washes
and testing before putting anything "live" in there...

Thanks again for all the responses.

"NetMax" wrote in message
...
"Desmond Wong" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Any ideas on the best way to clean a second hand tank? I have aquired
one,
and found that because the previous owner kept it only half full, the
bottom
half of the tank is quite clean, but the top half has this white
film-like
substance on it.

I have tried using water and a razor blade, doesn't seem to lift. What
would
be safe to use on it to rid this stuff?

Des.

Wow, you sure got a lot of good responses. This must be a topic everyone
has lots of experience to share. With so many responses, I might just
stop posting my comments, - not ;~). In case anything was missed, here
is an old reprint of a post I wrote on the topic:

Depending on the chemical composition of the stain, and the quantity of
build-up, you might find vinegar useless, but it's a good first choice as
it is easy to deal with residues. There is a wide variety of techniques,
some more appropriate for glass tops, rather than to try using inside the
aquarium as their toxicity increases with their cleaning power. Other
methods I have read of besides vinegar (white distilled works best), are
salt (kosher salt more abrasive on stains), lime Kool-Aid? (half the
water & no sugar), dish soap (contains acid) with nylon scouring pads,
bleach, CLR, lime away, tile cleaners, #000 (fine) steel wool, razor
blades, sulphamic acid, and muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid). A search
on the internet will also turn up an assortment of miracle products which
will peel the paint off your barn door at 20 metres ;~)

Note that all the mechanical methods (razor blades, steel wool, scouring
pads) pose some risk of abrasion, if not from what you are holding, then
from the deposits you are trying to remove if they get trapped in
between.

The more aggressive the solvent used, the more hazardous the work. If
you go as far as using strong acids, it's prudent to be prepared for any
spillage. One poster suggested baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to
neutralize any spills, "if you dissolve a couple of cups in a gallon of
water you can immediately neutralize spills on your equipment or skin ;
straight powdered baking soda may react violently with concentrated acid
and splatter you or nearby friends". Wear glasses, please, goggles if
you have them. From vinegar to muriatic acid, none work instantly, so be
prepared to let them soak as necessary.

Many of these suggested treatments were pulled from the Google usenet
archives (I personally have no special tricks, and I haven't tried all
these treatments). Another option for top plates with hard water stains,
is to drop them off at a glass supplier. He will measure and provide you
with duplicates. Use a little clear silicone & rubber handled clamps to
fasten the retaining edges back on. The glass is typically quite thin,
so the material is not very expensive.

cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

I will see how a very light coating of stove cleaner will go on it
tomorrow,
obviously washed out very well afterward. I am preparing the tank for
probably about 2 months away, so plenty of time to do many rinses and
washes
and testing before putting anything "live" in there...

Just be careful with the oven cleaner as some of them will perish rubber,
and (I don't know) maybe silicon.

Cheers

A

On Tue, 18 May 2004 20:19:11 +1000, "Desmond Wong"
bubbled forth the following:

Thanks for all the messages everyone.

I had tried vinegar to no luck with these stains... I have found out that
these marks have been there for about 2 years or so and never cleaned.

I have also used CLR with no luck, even UNDILUTED (I know, a bad thing to
do) and washed off excessively it still has left the marks on the tank, it
appears
to have made no difference to the appearance.

I will see how a very light coating of stove cleaner will go on it tomorrow,
obviously washed out very well afterward. I am preparing the tank for
probably about 2 months away, so plenty of time to do many rinses and washes
and testing before putting anything "live" in there...

Thanks again for all the responses.

It's sounding like the glass has actually been etched by the deposits,
especially if they were left on the glass for long periods of time. I
suspect polishing will be the only way to remove them, but maybe the
oven cleaner will work. Definitely let us all know if it does.

The following technical note from Pilkington describes several
processes that can stain glass. While intended for window glass, the
following paragraph from page 2 is applicable to aquariums:

"Even water alone can be damage the surface of glass. Certain types of hard water, for instance, may
leave harmful deposits if allowed to dry on glass surfaces. These deposits can be formed in washing or
rinsing the glass, or accidentally by the evaporation of water from such sources as lawn sprinklers. It is
difficult or impossible to remove such residue without excessive polishing."

The complete article is he

http://www.pilkington.com/resources/...ss20020306.pdf


Good luck!

Jerry

"NetMax" wrote in message m...

The more aggressive the solvent used, the more hazardous the work. If
you go as far as using strong acids, it's prudent to be prepared for any
spillage. One poster suggested baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to
neutralize any spills, "if you dissolve a couple of cups in a gallon of
water you can immediately neutralize spills on your equipment or skin ;
straight powdered baking soda may react violently with concentrated acid
and splatter you or nearby friends". Wear glasses, please, goggles if
you have them. From vinegar to muriatic acid, none work instantly, so be
prepared to let them soak as necessary.

Hey there NetMax. I just have a comment on the baking soda and
concentrated acids. While I don't know much about fish and aquariums
(but am learning through lurking), I know quite a bit about acids,
bases and neutralizing them. In addition to the safety equipment you
mention, gloves (rubber wash gloves are great) and a coat or long
button up shirt/smock that you can rip off rapidly if necessary are
other safety equipment I would recommend.

It is perfectly safe to use baking soda in powdered form with all
acids. I know because while working on my PhD in Chemistry, I have
used it at one time or another on most acids. However, that being
said, diluted baking soda and water is useful in certain situations,
as is the powdered form.

Powdered baking soda is useful as it will literally soak up the acid
like a sponge. As long as it is soaking up acid, it will continue to
clump together. Once all the acid is absorbed, it should stay as a
powder. Pouring it on the acid must be done with caution. Shake it on
gently, starting at the outside of the spill and circling it (like a
moat) and working towards the inside. This will prevent the acid from
getting away. Don't be afraid to use too much. It can't hurt. Let it
soak for a while, and don't be afraid to use something (plastic
preferably) to mix it up and stir the slurry around to ensure all of
the acid has been neutralized.

A solution is useful if you happen to get it on your hand or other
body part (OBP) that can be immersed. Dunk your hand/OBP and make your
way to the sink/shower and rinse in cold water. For at least 15
minutes. You may freeze your hand, but keep rinsing.

And always go see a doctor if you have any doubts at all about the
severity of the burn. Also, if you have a choice, don't do this if you
are all alone at home. Depending on the strength of the acid or the
location of the burn, it can hurt. A lot!! Enough to make it very
difficult to do anything on your own.

Marcel

"Mudbunny" wrote in message
om...
"NetMax" wrote in message
m...

The more aggressive the solvent used, the more hazardous the work.
If
you go as far as using strong acids, it's prudent to be prepared for
any
spillage. One poster suggested baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to
neutralize any spills, "if you dissolve a couple of cups in a gallon
of
water you can immediately neutralize spills on your equipment or skin
;
straight powdered baking soda may react violently with concentrated
acid
and splatter you or nearby friends". Wear glasses, please, goggles
if
you have them. From vinegar to muriatic acid, none work instantly,
so be
prepared to let them soak as necessary.

Hey there NetMax. I just have a comment on the baking soda and
concentrated acids. While I don't know much about fish and aquariums
(but am learning through lurking), I know quite a bit about acids,
bases and neutralizing them. In addition to the safety equipment you
mention, gloves (rubber wash gloves are great) and a coat or long
button up shirt/smock that you can rip off rapidly if necessary are
other safety equipment I would recommend.

It is perfectly safe to use baking soda in powdered form with all
acids. I know because while working on my PhD in Chemistry, I have
used it at one time or another on most acids. However, that being
said, diluted baking soda and water is useful in certain situations,
as is the powdered form.

Powdered baking soda is useful as it will literally soak up the acid
like a sponge. As long as it is soaking up acid, it will continue to
clump together. Once all the acid is absorbed, it should stay as a
powder. Pouring it on the acid must be done with caution. Shake it on
gently, starting at the outside of the spill and circling it (like a
moat) and working towards the inside. This will prevent the acid from
getting away. Don't be afraid to use too much. It can't hurt. Let it
soak for a while, and don't be afraid to use something (plastic
preferably) to mix it up and stir the slurry around to ensure all of
the acid has been neutralized.

A solution is useful if you happen to get it on your hand or other
body part (OBP) that can be immersed. Dunk your hand/OBP and make your
way to the sink/shower and rinse in cold water. For at least 15
minutes. You may freeze your hand, but keep rinsing.

And always go see a doctor if you have any doubts at all about the
severity of the burn. Also, if you have a choice, don't do this if you
are all alone at home. Depending on the strength of the acid or the
location of the burn, it can hurt. A lot!! Enough to make it very
difficult to do anything on your own.

Marcel

Thanks for the great advice Marcel. I've created a Maintenance page, and
included your advice in the 'cleaning hard water deposits' section.
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/ma...nce.shtml#hard
cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

"NetMax" wrote in message ...

Thanks for the great advice Marcel. I've created a Maintenance page, and
included your advice in the 'cleaning hard water deposits' section.
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/ma...nce.shtml#hard
cheers

Cool. Do you want the MSDSs (Material Safety Data Sheets) for the
acids?? They are what is normally given with any chemicals that you
buy from a chemical supply store. They tell you all of the physical
and chemical properties, as well as the various health hazards and
dangers. If you post a list of the chemicals that are commonly used in
care and cleaning of aquaria, I can do some research over the long
weekend and send you links/files.

Marcel