Skin Irritation

RedForeman,

They are probably only active for a short period, they can only extract so
much before the medium is used up and needs a recharge, usually a soaking
of
aquarium salt will recharge it.

Actually, I wasn't crazy about using them. But I already had some larger
fish and knew I'd have to cycle the tank with them in. For this, they
sounded perfect. I'll remove them over the next week or so.

Algae on the FISH??? OMG, that's almost funny... slow mover??? jk...

The ones that had it were not fast movers but I don't know they were that
slow. I just got them from a small pond that had algae on pretty much
everything.

A water change routine, IMO, shouldn't go over 25% monthly, and some would
differ, which is ok... If they are polluters, of course more frequent
water
changes are better, as opposed to LARGE water changes over a long period.
Reason is, your changing 50% of the water, different water, as opposed to
only changing a small portion. If they were irritated at 50%, maybe back
off to 25% water changes, but more frequently....

Yeah, I definitely need to cut back the amount of water per change as that
was definitely making it worse. I read a book by a guy that changed 50% per
week. But he also had a ready supply of well water.

You can aerate your water by using a pump and bubbler, or a powerhead with
an airline running out for air... You can use a rubbermaid container,
trashcan, whatever will house 25-50g...

Do you think my water might not have enough oxygen in it? I have no bubbler
or powerhead. But the guy at the LFS said my filter should be enough, and I
put two of those filters on my tank. No sign that the fish's breathing is
labored or that they're coming to the top for air.

FWIW, by your statements "worse after a major water change" keeps telling
me
that 1, it's still early in the tanks establishing, and even if you've
finished the cycling... something is still bugging them.. 2, the water
change is bringing in water they don't like... if it's not IN your tank,
when you do the water change, you're bringing it in....

Well, again, it's definitely worse after a large water change. But it would
appear that those changes are necessary.

Thanks.

Jonathan

NetMax,

'Cycling' the tank is the process where you establish the waste
processing capability to be the same as your waste production. Ammonia
removers are artificially skewing the process and in a very un-natural
way (effectively in the beginning, and then with a reduced capability as
the zeolite becomes saturated). Your bacteria are 'cycling' to your
fish-load minus what the ammonia removers have stolen from the nitrogen
chain. If the ammonia removers were really effective, they would prevent
or significantly inhibit the tank from cycling properly. It's better to
achieve your equilibrium without artificial props.

Right, but as I indicated elsewhere, I really had no choice but to cycle the
tank with fish in it. For this, it sounded perfect as it would presumably
reduce the ammonia spike. I planned on removing them after the tank was
established and will probably do so in the next week or so. (BTW, I was able
to demonstrate quite clearly that the ammonia removers are not really all
that effective.)

I'm going to have to start pointing to my site to save my poor typing and
memory. Go he
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/dr...riftwood.shtml

Interesting. I'll look into this.

Just seen your parameters. There isn't anything special happening there.

I'm left wondering if there is something else in my tap water that I don't
have a test for.

I'd be tempted to give them a salt bath. With a small container of
lukewarm salty water, and a soft sponge, net each fish and rub the salty
sponge along their sides from the head to the tail a few times. It might
be some persistant microscopic bug hanging off them.

I've done this in the past. But only some of them had algae, and the
irritation seems evenly distributed between all the individuals and the
species.

When you cannot age water, then do small water changes more often, to
achieve the same change of volume with less stress.

Yeah, that's probably one thing I will be doing.

BTW, I haven't seen the symptoms as much for the past few days. Still more
confirmation that it's worse after a water change.

Thanks.

Jonathan

Actually, I wasn't crazy about using them. But I already had some
larger fish and knew I'd have to cycle the tank with them in. For
this, they sounded perfect. I'll remove them over the next week or so.

Good idea, they've been used up and are useless after 2-3 weeks...

Algae on the FISH??? OMG, that's almost funny... slow mover??? jk...

The ones that had it were not fast movers but I don't know they were
that slow. I just got them from a small pond that had algae on pretty
much everything.

That explains it... I've seen algae on a snail, but a fish??? hahahaha!!!!

A water change routine, IMO, shouldn't go over 25% monthly, and some
would differ, which is ok... If they are polluters, of course more
frequent water changes are better, as opposed to LARGE water changes
over a long period. Reason is, your changing 50% of the water,
different water, as opposed to only changing a small portion. If
they were irritated at 50%, maybe back off to 25% water changes, but
more frequently....

Yeah, I definitely need to cut back the amount of water per change as
that was definitely making it worse. I read a book by a guy that
changed 50% per week. But he also had a ready supply of well water.

Suggestion... every third day, take out 10-15%, until you get the water back
in good shape, fish will be less stressed etc....

You can aerate your water by using a pump and bubbler, or a
powerhead with an airline running out for air... You can use a
rubbermaid container, trashcan, whatever will house 25-50g...

Do you think my water might not have enough oxygen in it? I have no
bubbler or powerhead. But the guy at the LFS said my filter should be
enough, and I put two of those filters on my tank. No sign that the
fish's breathing is labored or that they're coming to the top for air.

1, they'll never gulp air, I don't believe, they're not labyrinth fishes
like gouramis and bettas, they're the fish that can supplement their oxygen
exchange with atmospheric air....
2, if your filters are moving the water, and your surface is vented, there
should be plenty of oxygen.. unless your canopy is sealed and your using a
canister... you may think about just adding a powerhead in one corner with
an airline attached for some surface aggitation....that will increase your
oxygen intake for the water...

FWIW, by your statements "worse after a major water change" keeps
telling me that 1, it's still early in the tanks establishing, and
even if you've finished the cycling... something is still bugging
them.. 2, the water change is bringing in water they don't like...
if it's not IN your tank, when you do the water change, you're
bringing it in....

Well, again, it's definitely worse after a large water change. But it
would appear that those changes are necessary.

Honestly, it sounds like your underfiltered, or your stuck in a cycling
process, where there is ammonia, there is trouble.. consider this, take out
your ammonia bags, do a water change of 15-20% and then after 3 days, watch
the fish to see if they flash anymore... then do a ammonia and nitrite test,
all should be zero... then you can resume your normal 10-20% weekly water
changes

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
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is that better??

Rick,

I guess I missed that all fish even in different tanks have the same
problem. I would suspect as others do a water issue. Without going back
and
reading all the posts, do you use a python or similar system and add water
direct from the tap which you have used a dechlorinator on?. It may be a
high concentration of dissolved gas in the water that is irritating them.
I
have 3 large plastic garbage bins (with 36 tanks that is not enough) that
my
waste water from my R/O system goes into. I use a bubbler and heater in
those containers which keeps the temp. close to tank water but more
importantly removes the gas and chlorine from the water. Possibly check
with
you water supplier to see if anything different has been added recently.

Heh, yeah, I was hauling five gallon buckets downstairs for my 50 gallon.
For my 125 gallon, I installed a sink downstairs and purchased a python
system. I was concerned about not being able to treat the water before
putting it in the tank. But I should point out that I have seen the same
symptoms in the past when I put the dechlorinator in the bucket and let it
sit a few minutes before pouring it into the tank.

Yeah, I definitely worried about something in the water that I can't
measure. But it's not a matter of what may have been added to the water
recently as the problem has existed ever since my first fish.

I will consider the possibility of buying a plastic garbage bin though. I
should have no trouble storing the water needed for a 25-50% water change in
it for a couple of days. Not sure what the R/O refers to. But I suspect I
can find some way to transfer the water from the garbage bin to the tank.

Thanks.

Jonathan

I will consider the possibility of buying a plastic garbage bin
though. I should have no trouble storing the water needed for a
25-50% water change in it for a couple of days. Not sure what the R/O
refers to. But I suspect I can find some way to transfer the water
from the garbage bin to the tank.

R/O- reverse osmosis, pure water, no nothings in it...

A mag pump could empty the 30g trash can in 1-2 minutes couldn't it??? I
can't remember...

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??

RedForeman,

Suggestion... every third day, take out 10-15%, until you get the water
back
in good shape, fish will be less stressed etc....

Not really sure if I understand that. My fish seem until I put new water in.

BTW, I just took out enough water to vacuum the gravel (about 15-20
gallons). This time, I replaced the water with a bucket, which I treated
with dechlorinator before pouring into the tank. That's a small percentage
of the 125 gallons the tank holds. Sure enough, although it wasn't too bad,
my bluegill clamped his fins on and off for several minutes and my large
mouth looked a bit agitated. After a while, they looked okay.

I removed one of the packs that absorb ammonia, and I added bacteria starter
(which seems to help).

2, if your filters are moving the water, and your surface is vented, there
should be plenty of oxygen.

Yup.

Honestly, it sounds like your underfiltered, or your stuck in a cycling
process, where there is ammonia, there is trouble.. consider this, take
out
your ammonia bags, do a water change of 15-20% and then after 3 days,
watch
the fish to see if they flash anymore... then do a ammonia and nitrite
test,
all should be zero... then you can resume your normal 10-20% weekly water
changes

Well, I've had fish in a tank with a big ammonia spike. All these fish
handle it quite well (unfortunately, the perch, walleye, and white bass
didn't handle it so well on my very first aquarium and they're no longer
with us).

Also, if it was ammonia, I'd expect them to get a bit of relief when I do a
water change. Instead, they seem relieved when I don't! g

Thanks.

Jonathan

RedForeman,

R/O- reverse osmosis, pure water, no nothings in it...

Ahh.

A mag pump could empty the 30g trash can in 1-2 minutes couldn't it??? I
can't remember...

Probably. More money to spend eh....

Thanks.

Jonathan

I snipped the past post for space....

Ok, I'm really not an expert, just trying to help, so....

If these fish were wild caught, what was their water like??? They were
probably 'born' in that water, so lets just guess that your water is
'better' than where they came from.... My first thought would be that
there's something missing in your water, or something added*(not by you)*
that _IS_ irritating them... what it is? Can't begin to answer that....

If these fish went thru an ammonia spike, they could already be damaged to
the point that when you leave them alone, they adjust well... when you add
water, they show signs of irritation... I can only deduce that it's IN your
water, no matter of mixing will get rid of it, unless you get water from
another source and compare the effects on them...

Last but not least.... a tough one though... DOCs Disolved Organic
Compounds... With 125g, I'd lean towards the thought that there isn't much
DOC in the water, but since this is a relatively new tank, setup, etc... and
not knowing the exact history, you might be spending more time and effort on
chasing your water chemistry, and worrying that it's the water, when in fact
it very well could be something that nobody's even touched yet....

With that being said, I wish I could help, but I'm probably overextending my
knowledge as it is... I'm good with the basics, but your problem leaves me
wondering myself...

Good luck, keep in touch and don't lose hope, there are hundreds of ppl
here, just not right this moment....

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??

RedForeman,
A mag pump could empty the 30g trash can in 1-2 minutes couldn't
it??? I can't remember...

Probably. More money to spend eh....

There are smaller pumps that don't cost much, but for your volume, unless
you want to spend 45m watching.... the $$ equates to speed....
--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??

RedForeman,

If these fish were wild caught, what was their water like??? They were
probably 'born' in that water, so lets just guess that your water is
'better' than where they came from.... My first thought would be that
there's something missing in your water, or something added*(not by you)*
that _IS_ irritating them... what it is? Can't begin to answer that....

It always amazes me how crappy the water some of these fish can live in.
Then it was all the more surprising that they didn't like mine (of course,
initially that was before I knew about ammonia, etc.). The green sunfish in
particular are known for being able to live in very murky and polluted
water.

I'm all but convinced there is something in my water that they don't like.
The obvious irritation just after water changes indicates to me this is the
case. Flouride, rust, or something else--I just don't know.

Last but not least.... a tough one though... DOCs Disolved Organic
Compounds... With 125g, I'd lean towards the thought that there isn't much
DOC in the water, but since this is a relatively new tank, setup, etc...
and
not knowing the exact history, you might be spending more time and effort
on
chasing your water chemistry, and worrying that it's the water, when in
fact
it very well could be something that nobody's even touched yet....

You know, when I did my last water change, one of my decorations smelled
exactly like gasoline. The decoration was bought from PetSmart and I'd
certainly expect it to be okay but I took it out just the same. I don't know
if that's the type of thing you had in mind but I seriously doubt that was
the problem. I've had the decoration a while, even in a smaller tank that
didn't seem to bother the fish as much. Still, I'll probably keep it for a
while just in case I can see any signs of improvement.

With that being said, I wish I could help, but I'm probably overextending
my
knowledge as it is... I'm good with the basics, but your problem leaves me
wondering myself...

Yeah, well, it's good to talk about it and get a few ideas flowing. In the
end, I don't think anyone can say for sure what it is without some major
testing of my water. Which makes me wonder what options I may have for a
more thorough test. I'll continue to try some of the ideas discussed here
and see if anything seems to make a difference.

Thanks.

Jonathan