PH Crashed Damn what's going on Now!

unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH drop. In
distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+ ions sends pH
spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+ hydrogen is
neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in the pH.
And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions. Again, in distilled
water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer resist the change
in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Bi...eviews/ph.html

The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting vegetation will put CO2
into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action. A plant that is
submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At night it uses up
oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using unless the plant is dead
and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will not even put that
much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water. At around pH 6.4 no
more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a limited extent.
that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and coming out of
solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.

What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of organic acids. Dead
plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by bacteria will
result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These are acidic and can
continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live at those acid
conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria are "working" they
will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic compound.

Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both calcium and
magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they are used as grit for
chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the ground up organic
limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not everything that is
lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to swing up and down,
there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and kill fish.. like
quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material in a gallon of tank
or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make absolutely sure it is safe
to use.

When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a LOT of baking soda
into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means that until that
CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to the fish. Fish are
no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in the air even if there
is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the water even if there
is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH plenty of aeration.
It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous aeration that
breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.

And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2, it is the lack of
oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic acids that leads to
acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are so good. There is
no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down anaerobically. Well,
unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang over the back
Whispers is the filter is open to the air.

You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have raised it much
faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big problems. They dont
undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or alkaline to acid.
Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up, a good buffering
system established. Ingrid


"Kodiak" wrote:
You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
read this....

http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...ater%20Quality

...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Thanks for all the info Ingrid, I have a descent airstone and big
Aquaclear300
for a tank that small (33gal) but I didn't want to chance it and get too
much CO2
in there so I raised it slowly. I will definitely look into the dolomitic
limestone as
you mentioned in the other post.
....Kodiak

wrote in message
...
unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH drop.
In
distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+ ions
sends pH
spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+
hydrogen is
neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in the pH.
And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions. Again, in
distilled
water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer resist
the change
in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Bi...eviews/ph.html

The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting vegetation will
put CO2
into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action. A plant
that is
submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At night it
uses up
oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using unless the
plant is dead
and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will not
even put that
much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water. At
around pH 6.4 no
more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a limited
extent.
that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and coming
out of
solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.

What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of organic
acids. Dead
plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by bacteria
will
result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These are acidic
and can
continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live at those
acid
conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria are
"working" they
will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic
compound.

Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both calcium
and
magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they are used
as grit for
chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the ground up
organic
limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not
everything that is
lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to swing up
and down,
there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and kill
fish.. like
quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material in a
gallon of tank
or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make absolutely sure
it is safe
to use.

When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a LOT of
baking soda
into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means that
until that
CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to the fish.
Fish are
no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in the air
even if there
is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the water
even if there
is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH plenty of
aeration.
It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous aeration
that
breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.

And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2, it is
the lack of
oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic acids that
leads to
acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are so good.
There is
no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down
anaerobically. Well,
unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang over the
back
Whispers is the filter is open to the air.

You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have raised it
much
faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big problems.
They dont
undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or alkaline
to acid.
Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up, a good
buffering
system established. Ingrid


"Kodiak" wrote:
You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
read this....


http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...cle_id=206&cat
egory=12&name=Water%20Quality

...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Kodiak,

You may not be able to find Dolomite limestone, it is not carried just any
where any more. You used to able to buy it all the time for it was used as
a supplement for cattle and sheep, but about the only place you can find it
now are places where there is a lot of aquaculture facilities. If you can't
find it you may have to try oyster shells. I you have a feed store near you
can get oyster shell chicken grit, or if that is not available you can some
time go to the bird area of your local pet store and look for certain bird
grits. Wash it very good, for sometimes it is pretty dusty, and then put in
a bag made of nylon net from the yard good area of a sewing store or tulle.
Put the bag either in the discharge area of the filter or in the jump flow
of bubbles from you airstone.

Oyster shells keep my ponds between 80 and 129ppm of KH.

HTH

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------

"Kodiak" wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the info Ingrid, I have a descent airstone and big
Aquaclear300
for a tank that small (33gal) but I didn't want to chance it and get too
much CO2
in there so I raised it slowly. I will definitely look into the dolomitic
limestone as
you mentioned in the other post.
...Kodiak

wrote in message
...
unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH drop.
In
distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+ ions
sends pH
spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+
hydrogen is
neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in the pH.
And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions. Again, in
distilled
water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer
resist
the change
in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Bi...eviews/ph.html

The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting vegetation
will
put CO2
into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action. A
plant
that is
submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At night it
uses up
oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using unless the
plant is dead
and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will not
even put that
much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water. At
around pH 6.4 no
more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a
limited
extent.
that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and
coming
out of
solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.

What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of organic
acids. Dead
plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by
bacteria
will
result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These are
acidic
and can
continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live at
those
acid
conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria are
"working" they
will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic
compound.

Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both
calcium
and
magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they are used
as grit for
chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the ground
up
organic
limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not
everything that is
lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to swing
up
and down,
there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and kill
fish.. like
quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material in a
gallon of tank
or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make absolutely sure
it is safe
to use.

When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a LOT
of
baking soda
into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means that
until that
CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to the
fish.
Fish are
no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in the air
even if there
is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the water
even if there
is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH plenty of
aeration.
It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous
aeration
that
breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.

And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2, it is
the lack of
oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic acids
that
leads to
acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are so
good.
There is
no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down
anaerobically. Well,
unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang over
the
back
Whispers is the filter is open to the air.

You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have raised
it
much
faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big
problems.
They dont
undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or
alkaline
to acid.
Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up, a
good
buffering
system established. Ingrid


"Kodiak" wrote:
You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
read this....



http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...cle_id=206&cat
egory=12&name=Water%20Quality

...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Hey Tom,
I just bought some crushed Coral and was about to do
the same thing. (put it in a baggy and jam it into my
Aquaclear 500). You think it will be as good as the Oyster shells?
....Kodiak

"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Kodiak,

You may not be able to find Dolomite limestone, it is not carried just any
where any more. You used to able to buy it all the time for it was used
as
a supplement for cattle and sheep, but about the only place you can find
it
now are places where there is a lot of aquaculture facilities. If you
can't
find it you may have to try oyster shells. I you have a feed store near
you
can get oyster shell chicken grit, or if that is not available you can
some
time go to the bird area of your local pet store and look for certain bird
grits. Wash it very good, for sometimes it is pretty dusty, and then put
in
a bag made of nylon net from the yard good area of a sewing store or
tulle.
Put the bag either in the discharge area of the filter or in the jump flow
of bubbles from you airstone.

Oyster shells keep my ponds between 80 and 129ppm of KH.

HTH

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------

"Kodiak" wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the info Ingrid, I have a descent airstone and big
Aquaclear300
for a tank that small (33gal) but I didn't want to chance it and get too
much CO2
in there so I raised it slowly. I will definitely look into the
dolomitic
limestone as
you mentioned in the other post.
...Kodiak

wrote in message
...
unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH
drop.
In
distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+
ions
sends pH
spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+
hydrogen is
neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in the
pH.
And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions. Again,
in
distilled
water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer
resist
the change
in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Bi...eviews/ph.html

The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting vegetation
will
put CO2
into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action. A
plant
that is
submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At night
it
uses up
oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using unless
the
plant is dead
and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will not
even put that
much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water. At
around pH 6.4 no
more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a
limited
extent.
that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and
coming
out of
solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.

What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of organic
acids. Dead
plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by
bacteria
will
result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These are
acidic
and can
continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live at
those
acid
conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria are
"working" they
will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic
compound.

Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both
calcium
and
magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they are
used
as grit for
chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the
ground
up
organic
limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not
everything that is
lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to swing
up
and down,
there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and kill
fish.. like
quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material in a
gallon of tank
or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make absolutely
sure
it is safe
to use.

When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a LOT
of
baking soda
into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means
that
until that
CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to the
fish.
Fish are
no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in the
air
even if there
is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the water
even if there
is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH plenty
of
aeration.
It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous
aeration
that
breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.

And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2, it
is
the lack of
oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic acids
that
leads to
acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are so
good.
There is
no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down
anaerobically. Well,
unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang over
the
back
Whispers is the filter is open to the air.

You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have
raised
it
much
faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big
problems.
They dont
undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or
alkaline
to acid.
Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up, a
good
buffering
system established. Ingrid


"Kodiak" wrote:
You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
read this....




http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...cle_id=206&cat
egory=12&name=Water%20Quality

...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Kodiak,

It is a good alternative. Just pack it loose so the water will flow through
it. You really don't need a lot unless you water is pretty acidic. In my
ponds I have a tray of the oyster shells in the filter and every spring I
put about three quarters of an inch in it. One year when we had incessant
rains when I put more shells in the next Spring there was only about 3/8 of
an inch left in the tray. You don't necessarily see the decrease but it
does occur.

Tom L.L.
-------------------------------------
"Kodiak" wrote in message
.. .
Hey Tom,
I just bought some crushed Coral and was about to do
the same thing. (put it in a baggy and jam it into my
Aquaclear 500). You think it will be as good as the Oyster shells?
...Kodiak

"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Kodiak,

You may not be able to find Dolomite limestone, it is not carried just
any
where any more. You used to able to buy it all the time for it was used
as
a supplement for cattle and sheep, but about the only place you can find
it
now are places where there is a lot of aquaculture facilities. If you
can't
find it you may have to try oyster shells. I you have a feed store near
you
can get oyster shell chicken grit, or if that is not available you can
some
time go to the bird area of your local pet store and look for certain
bird
grits. Wash it very good, for sometimes it is pretty dusty, and then
put
in
a bag made of nylon net from the yard good area of a sewing store or
tulle.
Put the bag either in the discharge area of the filter or in the jump
flow
of bubbles from you airstone.

Oyster shells keep my ponds between 80 and 129ppm of KH.

HTH

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------

"Kodiak" wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the info Ingrid, I have a descent airstone and big
Aquaclear300
for a tank that small (33gal) but I didn't want to chance it and get
too
much CO2
in there so I raised it slowly. I will definitely look into the
dolomitic
limestone as
you mentioned in the other post.
...Kodiak

wrote in message
...
unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH
drop.
In
distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+
ions
sends pH
spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+
hydrogen is
neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in the
pH.
And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions. Again,
in
distilled
water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer
resist
the change
in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Bi...eviews/ph.html

The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting
vegetation
will
put CO2
into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action. A
plant
that is
submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At
night
it
uses up
oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using unless
the
plant is dead
and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will
not
even put that
much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water. At
around pH 6.4 no
more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a
limited
extent.
that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and
coming
out of
solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.

What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of
organic
acids. Dead
plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by
bacteria
will
result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These are
acidic
and can
continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live at
those
acid
conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria are
"working" they
will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic
compound.

Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both
calcium
and
magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they are
used
as grit for
chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the
ground
up
organic
limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not
everything that is
lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to
swing
up
and down,
there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and
kill
fish.. like
quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material in
a
gallon of tank
or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make absolutely
sure
it is safe
to use.

When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a
LOT
of
baking soda
into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means
that
until that
CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to the
fish.
Fish are
no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in the
air
even if there
is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the
water
even if there
is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH
plenty
of
aeration.
It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous
aeration
that
breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.

And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2,
it
is
the lack of
oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic acids
that
leads to
acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are so
good.
There is
no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down
anaerobically. Well,
unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang
over
the
back
Whispers is the filter is open to the air.

You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have
raised
it
much
faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big
problems.
They dont
undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or
alkaline
to acid.
Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up, a
good
buffering
system established. Ingrid


"Kodiak" wrote:
You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
read this....





http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...cle_id=206&cat
egory=12&name=Water%20Quality

...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

So this stuff really dissolves?
I was just thinking today that i overpack my
Aquaclear filters with media. I see alot of the water
flow past the top bypass notch. I think that means
I should pack my media more loosely?
....Kodiak

"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Kodiak,

It is a good alternative. Just pack it loose so the water will flow
through
it. You really don't need a lot unless you water is pretty acidic. In my
ponds I have a tray of the oyster shells in the filter and every spring I
put about three quarters of an inch in it. One year when we had incessant
rains when I put more shells in the next Spring there was only about 3/8
of
an inch left in the tray. You don't necessarily see the decrease but it
does occur.

Tom L.L.
-------------------------------------
"Kodiak" wrote in message
.. .
Hey Tom,
I just bought some crushed Coral and was about to do
the same thing. (put it in a baggy and jam it into my
Aquaclear 500). You think it will be as good as the Oyster shells?
...Kodiak

"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Kodiak,

You may not be able to find Dolomite limestone, it is not carried just
any
where any more. You used to able to buy it all the time for it was
used
as
a supplement for cattle and sheep, but about the only place you can
find
it
now are places where there is a lot of aquaculture facilities. If you
can't
find it you may have to try oyster shells. I you have a feed store
near
you
can get oyster shell chicken grit, or if that is not available you can
some
time go to the bird area of your local pet store and look for certain
bird
grits. Wash it very good, for sometimes it is pretty dusty, and then
put
in
a bag made of nylon net from the yard good area of a sewing store or
tulle.
Put the bag either in the discharge area of the filter or in the jump
flow
of bubbles from you airstone.

Oyster shells keep my ponds between 80 and 129ppm of KH.

HTH

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------

"Kodiak" wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the info Ingrid, I have a descent airstone and big
Aquaclear300
for a tank that small (33gal) but I didn't want to chance it and get
too
much CO2
in there so I raised it slowly. I will definitely look into the
dolomitic
limestone as
you mentioned in the other post.
...Kodiak

wrote in message
...
unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH
drop.
In
distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+
ions
sends pH
spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+
hydrogen is
neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in
the
pH.
And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions.
Again,
in
distilled
water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer
resist
the change
in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Bi...eviews/ph.html

The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting
vegetation
will
put CO2
into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action.
A
plant
that is
submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At
night
it
uses up
oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using
unless
the
plant is dead
and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will
not
even put that
much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water.
At
around pH 6.4 no
more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a
limited
extent.
that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and
coming
out of
solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.

What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of
organic
acids. Dead
plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by
bacteria
will
result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These
are
acidic
and can
continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live
at
those
acid
conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria
are
"working" they
will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic
compound.

Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both
calcium
and
magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they
are
used
as grit for
chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the
ground
up
organic
limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not
everything that is
lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to
swing
up
and down,
there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and
kill
fish.. like
quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material
in
a
gallon of tank
or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make
absolutely
sure
it is safe
to use.

When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a
LOT
of
baking soda
into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means
that
until that
CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to
the
fish.
Fish are
no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in
the
air
even if there
is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the
water
even if there
is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH
plenty
of
aeration.
It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous
aeration
that
breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.

And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2,
it
is
the lack of
oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic
acids
that
leads to
acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are
so
good.
There is
no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down
anaerobically. Well,
unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang
over
the
back
Whispers is the filter is open to the air.

You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have
raised
it
much
faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big
problems.
They dont
undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or
alkaline
to acid.
Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up,
a
good
buffering
system established. Ingrid


"Kodiak" wrote:
You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
read this....






http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...cle_id=206&cat
egory=12&name=Water%20Quality

...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Ingrid is spot on with that post.