newbie queries...

In message , Geezer From The Freezer
writes
Sophie,

Fish shops have a habit of giving bad info. Goldfish lovers have no hidden
agenda
giving out information,

that's what I thought! I posted here because I thought I'd get nice
unbiased voices of experience.

fish shops do. They want your cash.

yes. sadly, this one made me feel very secure by refusing point blank to
sell me more than two goldfish to start with on the grounds that I
hadn't kept fish since I was a kid. They also were well aware of the
fact that I wanted to get a bigger tank - I assumed that if they were
after my money, big tank+hood+bits was more appealing than a few quid on
a couple of fish. or maybe they genuinely thought it was ok? anyway,
they seem(ed) genuine and caring. they certainly have good fish and
they're really helpful about stuff.

I know of quite a few people who have kept White Clouds with goldfish.
I'd suggest doing regular water changes for the time being

is 1/4 tank weekly ok? I got a gravel hoover thing so I can do that more
easily and regularly.

and definitely
getting
the test kits. You want to get a larger tank ASAP though otherwise your
goldfish
could
stunt.

I read an interesting article recently which suggested that the
"stunting" is due to concentrations of chemicals that the big fish give
out that inhibit growth in other fish - in a little tank, the
concentrations are high.

is the surface area to inch of fish equation serisouly wrong? how do I
work out how many fish it is kind to keep in what size tank? (and if it
involves gallons, are these american or uk? ;-) )

thanks for your reply, btw, I appreciate it - I'm just sorry it's raised
more questions!
--
sophie

In message , Larry Blanchard
writes
In article ,
says...
You want to get a larger tank ASAP though otherwise your goldfish
could
stunt.

Don't panic Sophie, it won't happen overnight :-). And some
have suggested that goldfish don't stunt, they just quit growing
until they get into a bigger tank and then they resume growth.
I don't know if that's true or not.

The advice on using a test kit to determine water changes is
good.

Also, some have said that goldfish occasionally get gravel stuck
in their mouth or throat. Some have switched to sand, some to
nothing, and some say it's not a problem.

Keeping fish is like gardening or raising children. There are
lots of opinions on the best way to do it, and very few verified
facts :-).

as long as the fish don't start shrieking at me when I send them to bed
early for being naughty. Seriously, though, I've heard so many different
ways of keeping fish which are very successful for different people that
I'm starting to get a bit confused.

thanks for the help. (do you post to u.r.b, or is that someone else?)

--
sophie

As a basic rule for beginners you should ideally have an absolute minimum of
10 gallons of water per goldfish but the more the better.
Mel.


"sophie" wrote in message
...
In message , Geezer From The Freezer
writes
Sophie,

Fish shops have a habit of giving bad info. Goldfish lovers have no
hidden
agenda
giving out information,

that's what I thought! I posted here because I thought I'd get nice
unbiased voices of experience.

fish shops do. They want your cash.

yes. sadly, this one made me feel very secure by refusing point blank to
sell me more than two goldfish to start with on the grounds that I
hadn't kept fish since I was a kid. They also were well aware of the
fact that I wanted to get a bigger tank - I assumed that if they were
after my money, big tank+hood+bits was more appealing than a few quid on
a couple of fish. or maybe they genuinely thought it was ok? anyway,
they seem(ed) genuine and caring. they certainly have good fish and
they're really helpful about stuff.

I know of quite a few people who have kept White Clouds with goldfish.
I'd suggest doing regular water changes for the time being

is 1/4 tank weekly ok? I got a gravel hoover thing so I can do that more
easily and regularly.

and definitely
getting
the test kits. You want to get a larger tank ASAP though otherwise your
goldfish
could
stunt.

I read an interesting article recently which suggested that the
"stunting" is due to concentrations of chemicals that the big fish give
out that inhibit growth in other fish - in a little tank, the
concentrations are high.

is the surface area to inch of fish equation serisouly wrong? how do I
work out how many fish it is kind to keep in what size tank? (and if it
involves gallons, are these american or uk? ;-) )

thanks for your reply, btw, I appreciate it - I'm just sorry it's raised
more questions!
--
sophie

In message , Mel
writes
As a basic rule for beginners you should ideally have an absolute minimum of
10 gallons of water per goldfish but the more the better.

Thanks Mel - so if this is UK gallons, I seem to have a tank the right
size for one goldfish, never mind three? The two original fish seem well
- they've grown a little since I got them, they're very shiny and
healthy looking and the colours are lovely; which I assume is good - but
I must obviously get a new tank.

Mel.


"sophie" wrote in message
...
In message , Geezer From The Freezer
writes
Sophie,

Fish shops have a habit of giving bad info. Goldfish lovers have no
hidden
agenda
giving out information,

that's what I thought! I posted here because I thought I'd get nice
unbiased voices of experience.

fish shops do. They want your cash.

yes. sadly, this one made me feel very secure by refusing point blank to
sell me more than two goldfish to start with on the grounds that I
hadn't kept fish since I was a kid. They also were well aware of the
fact that I wanted to get a bigger tank - I assumed that if they were
after my money, big tank+hood+bits was more appealing than a few quid on
a couple of fish. or maybe they genuinely thought it was ok? anyway,
they seem(ed) genuine and caring. they certainly have good fish and
they're really helpful about stuff.

I know of quite a few people who have kept White Clouds with goldfish.
I'd suggest doing regular water changes for the time being

is 1/4 tank weekly ok? I got a gravel hoover thing so I can do that more
easily and regularly.

and definitely
getting
the test kits. You want to get a larger tank ASAP though otherwise your
goldfish
could
stunt.

I read an interesting article recently which suggested that the
"stunting" is due to concentrations of chemicals that the big fish give
out that inhibit growth in other fish - in a little tank, the
concentrations are high.

is the surface area to inch of fish equation serisouly wrong? how do I
work out how many fish it is kind to keep in what size tank? (and if it
involves gallons, are these american or uk? ;-) )

thanks for your reply, btw, I appreciate it - I'm just sorry it's raised
more questions!
--
sophie



--
sophie

the surface or per inch rule doesnt apply to GF. fancy GF are bigger around (the
volume rule) and they are dirtier fish. surface doesnt matter with aeration. what
counts is amount of water and nitrate concentration (20 ppm or lower). 10 gallons
per fish of medium size fed with good food and not too much makes the amount of
nitrates can be lowered with 1 water change per week.
white clouds arent too bad, GF will eat anything fits in their mouth including
smaller fish. plecos or algae eaters will suck GF slime making GF sick and die.
Ingrid

sophie wrote:
I'd worked out that according to
the surface area/inch of fish rule that this was as many fish as I could
put in the tank, but I hadn't thought it was overstocked.
nor had I realised that goldfish shouldn't be kept with other fish; the
friends I caught the bug from have kept goldfish with white clouds for
years with no problems... is there a specific reason not to do this?

thanks again,


sophie wrote:


Hi,

Firstly, is there a faq? - I hope I'm not asking questions that get
asked all the time.

A few months ago I bought a smallish tank setup for my small son (it's
above the level where he can tap on the glass, and he's surprisingly
responsible about his fish). It's 18*12*15 (l,w,d) and to start with I
put two goldfish (a plain yellow one and a slightly fancy one which I
think is a comet) and three white cloud minnows in the tank; it's got a
fluval one filter and some plants (which need restocking, the fish eat
them!) one of the minnows died a couple of weeks after we got them but
the others were all fine and happy (although I would like at least one
more minnow because they seem happier in numbers.) I've also got a few
trumpet snails - the burrowing ones that help keep the gravel clean.
Anyway, after a few months and the fish all doing well, I've put in
another goldfish (a little calico ryukin, who is lovely) and a small
sucking loach who had been acclimatised to a coldwater tank (yes, I know
about the loach, but I'm prepared to give it its own tank if it gets too
big and stroppy). I'm aware I shouldn't put any more fish in the tank (I
want to get a three foot one in the summer - have you guessed the fish
are really for me and not for the little one?) anyway, my queries are
these:

what are the goldfish doing when they suck up a piece of gravel and then
spit it out?

is it usual for goldfish behaviour to change when you add another fish
to the mix? they're much livelier and seem constantly hungry (I'm not
giving in to their "feed me" stuff, though). They're swimming around in
a boisterous gang. The new ryukin chased the minnows to start with but
has now stopped.

am I getting the cleaning right? I take out and replace either a quarter
of the water weekly, or half fortnightly. every six weeks I take the
fish out of the tank, remove and keep half the water, and take the
gravel out and swill the tank out (I don't overclean the gravel, just to
remove the goo, which with goldfish is revolting.) and wipe down the
front and sides of the tank with wet cotton wool. (I'm going to be
leaving the back of the tank now, for the loach.) then I refill the
tank, half with old and half with new water. the fish seem happy and
don't react badly to being removed - is the cleaning
adequate/appropriate?

is fishkeeping addictive? I'm getting a bit worried!

sorry for the slightly huge post, and thank you very much for any help.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

there are lots of "little books" that repeat a lot of the same old information of the
kind that also suggests goldfish bowls for goldfish .. old information that is out of
date but repeated by people who write books, not those who actually keep fish.

there are methods for beginners, that is outlined in the essentials list.
there are methods for those who are experts or just plain lucky.
Ingrid

sophie wrote:
Seriously, though, I've heard so many different
ways of keeping fish which are very successful for different people that
I'm starting to get a bit confused.

thanks for the help. (do you post to u.r.b, or is that someone else?)



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

where is the information published? if not in a scientific publication for fish
keeping it cannot be relied upon.
mostly it is ammonia stunts fish. and not even the levels that can be measured. GF
put out a certain amount just resting and it both needs to be diluted and it needs to
be removed quickly or it can affect growth. then comes crowding and the stress that
brings. stress takes down the immune system leaving fish open to disease.

sophie wrote:
I read an interesting article recently which suggested that the
"stunting" is due to concentrations of chemicals that the big fish give
out that inhibit growth in other fish - in a little tank, the
concentrations are high.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

In message ,
writes
the surface or per inch rule doesnt apply to GF. fancy GF are bigger
around (the
volume rule) and they are dirtier fish. surface doesnt matter with
aeration. what
counts is amount of water and nitrate concentration (20 ppm or lower).
10 gallons
per fish of medium size fed with good food and not too much makes the amount of
nitrates can be lowered with 1 water change per week.
white clouds arent too bad, GF will eat anything fits in their mouth including
smaller fish. plecos or algae eaters will suck GF slime making GF sick
and die.

I'd heard that about the plecos and algae eaters and had already decided
that if it showed signs of that it would go in a different tank to the
rest! so far, it hasn't, but at the moment it's small, as are the rest
of the fish. the inch rule I got from the website of one the UK's
goldfish societies rather than from the aquatics shop. anyway, I
obviously need a bigger tank and will change the water weekly until I
get one. I'll keep a close eye on the fish and make sure they stay
healthy, if they look like things are going wrong I'll get the bigger
tank sooner.

thank you very much for all your advice, I appreciate it.

Ingrid

sophie wrote:
I'd worked out that according to
the surface area/inch of fish rule that this was as many fish as I could
put in the tank, but I hadn't thought it was overstocked.
nor had I realised that goldfish shouldn't be kept with other fish; the
friends I caught the bug from have kept goldfish with white clouds for
years with no problems... is there a specific reason not to do this?

thanks again,


sophie wrote:


Hi,

Firstly, is there a faq? - I hope I'm not asking questions that get
asked all the time.

A few months ago I bought a smallish tank setup for my small son (it's
above the level where he can tap on the glass, and he's surprisingly
responsible about his fish). It's 18*12*15 (l,w,d) and to start with I
put two goldfish (a plain yellow one and a slightly fancy one which I
think is a comet) and three white cloud minnows in the tank; it's got a
fluval one filter and some plants (which need restocking, the fish eat
them!) one of the minnows died a couple of weeks after we got them but
the others were all fine and happy (although I would like at least one
more minnow because they seem happier in numbers.) I've also got a few
trumpet snails - the burrowing ones that help keep the gravel clean.
Anyway, after a few months and the fish all doing well, I've put in
another goldfish (a little calico ryukin, who is lovely) and a small
sucking loach who had been acclimatised to a coldwater tank (yes, I know
about the loach, but I'm prepared to give it its own tank if it gets too
big and stroppy). I'm aware I shouldn't put any more fish in the tank (I
want to get a three foot one in the summer - have you guessed the fish
are really for me and not for the little one?) anyway, my queries are
these:

what are the goldfish doing when they suck up a piece of gravel and then
spit it out?

is it usual for goldfish behaviour to change when you add another fish
to the mix? they're much livelier and seem constantly hungry (I'm not
giving in to their "feed me" stuff, though). They're swimming around in
a boisterous gang. The new ryukin chased the minnows to start with but
has now stopped.

am I getting the cleaning right? I take out and replace either a quarter
of the water weekly, or half fortnightly. every six weeks I take the
fish out of the tank, remove and keep half the water, and take the
gravel out and swill the tank out (I don't overclean the gravel, just to
remove the goo, which with goldfish is revolting.) and wipe down the
front and sides of the tank with wet cotton wool. (I'm going to be
leaving the back of the tank now, for the loach.) then I refill the
tank, half with old and half with new water. the fish seem happy and
don't react badly to being removed - is the cleaning
adequate/appropriate?

is fishkeeping addictive? I'm getting a bit worried!

sorry for the slightly huge post, and thank you very much for any help.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

--
sophie

In message , Geezer From The Freezer
writes
Sophie

A couple of things, and I hope you aren't too shocked about these:


1) You are massively overstocked.

this certainly seems to be the consensus!
I bought a gravel vac today, I was surprised at how simple, effective
and cheap it was. I'll be getting a bigger tank as soon as possible. In
my defence all I can say is that I was ill-advised at the shop and the
fish are small. The longest is a bit under two inches (the comet. at
least I think it must be a comet, (s)he's standard goldfish shape but
with very long fins. pretty.)

I did honestly believe the surface area to inch of fish equation - the
other one I read gave an inch of fish per gallon of water - good job I
didn't go with that one!

I do realise snails aren't necessarily a good thing, but I'd understood
the trumpet snails which live under the gravel are more useful than
harmful in small numbers.

So far I seem to have got things comprehensively wrong. gah. (and I
don't think the ryukin is a ryukin, having looked them up I think he's a
veiltail (aka man-yu, apparently).

My consolation at the moment is that the original fish look to be
healthy, as well as shinier and a little bigger (under the circs,
possibly not a good thing) than when I first got them.

I'm very grateful for all the help I've got here - it's been fantastic.
--
sophie
on a learning curve.

"Donald K" wrote in message
...
Think "fish room". ;-)

Plus a pond, of course.


LOL, I started my pond this weekend, sheesh what a mission, big blisters on
my hands .....Good fun though, always space for one more hey Donald?
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**