Post cycling deaths... any ideas?

Hi,

I'm new to sal****er, and I've cycled a 100 gallon tank I purchased
from a neighbor. It was previously a freshwater tank, but had been in
storages for about 2 years.

We cycled using live rock (about 15lbs) and silver mollies. During
the cycling we lost about 10 mollies - most during the initial nitrite
spike. I'm told by the LFS that this isn't that unusual... but I did
raise an eyebrow - but not having anyone else I know into sal****er
locally except one guy - I didn't have much of a reference. He said
he lost about 5 from 20 during his cycle.. a much lower rate... hmmm..

Anyway - we added some sal****er fish after cycling - 2 green clown
gobies, and 2 citron gobies. 1 citron and 1 clown die within 48 hours
- hmmm... expensive game this.

10 days later, I decide to add three small green chromis - a hardy
fish I'm told. 72 hours later, 2 have died.

Our other green clown can't be found - for those with an idea to add
gobies - my advice is to only add gobies if you don't need to see
them.. I'm not sure if the green clown is alive still - they yellow
one is - he sticks out, even when hidding in a dead coral head!

This is getting a little annoying.. not to mention these fish I have
to eventually replace.

I've been testing regularly - the pH is 8.0 - Alkaninity is fine - the
ammonia appeared to have spiked a little today (dead fish overnight
perhaps - otherwise a spike from a newly cycled tank with a less than
complete bio filter?).

Anyway - my nitrites are tiny - not quite 0, but 0.1 ppm perhaps - if
that. The nitrate is 0.

I have noticed that we have a slight salt leeching down one end of the
tank - it's a yellow color, and I scrape it off every couple of days -
this may be down to over zealous razor blading on our part - I think
the seal around the top (plastic retainer) perhaps got a little sliced
- but the yellow color it shows has me a little worried - as I had one
more before we lowered the level a 1/2 inch - it was white - surely
our salt would leave a white residue - not a yellow one.

Now - having lost about $30-40 of fish in a short time, I'm asking if
I should be testing for anything other than NH3, NO2 and NO3, pH. I'm
really wary of just adding new fish, as I have only 6 mollies left,
plus 1 chromis, 1 citron gobie, and PERHAPS 1 green clown gobie (if
it's hiding, not dead some place (which it might be - making my
ammonia spike a little).

Any ideas from a long term sal****er keeper would be GREATLY
appreciated.

thanks

Greg Hewitt-Long

to be honest, a 100 gallon tank with only 15 lbs or LR is probably still on
its cycle, your A.N.N. readins even support this.

kc

"Greg Hewitt-Long" wrote in message
m...
Hi,

I'm new to sal****er, and I've cycled a 100 gallon tank I purchased
from a neighbor. It was previously a freshwater tank, but had been in
storages for about 2 years.

We cycled using live rock (about 15lbs) and silver mollies. During
the cycling we lost about 10 mollies - most during the initial nitrite
spike. I'm told by the LFS that this isn't that unusual... but I did
raise an eyebrow - but not having anyone else I know into sal****er
locally except one guy - I didn't have much of a reference. He said
he lost about 5 from 20 during his cycle.. a much lower rate... hmmm..

Anyway - we added some sal****er fish after cycling - 2 green clown
gobies, and 2 citron gobies. 1 citron and 1 clown die within 48 hours
- hmmm... expensive game this.

10 days later, I decide to add three small green chromis - a hardy
fish I'm told. 72 hours later, 2 have died.

Our other green clown can't be found - for those with an idea to add
gobies - my advice is to only add gobies if you don't need to see
them.. I'm not sure if the green clown is alive still - they yellow
one is - he sticks out, even when hidding in a dead coral head!

This is getting a little annoying.. not to mention these fish I have
to eventually replace.

I've been testing regularly - the pH is 8.0 - Alkaninity is fine - the
ammonia appeared to have spiked a little today (dead fish overnight
perhaps - otherwise a spike from a newly cycled tank with a less than
complete bio filter?).

Anyway - my nitrites are tiny - not quite 0, but 0.1 ppm perhaps - if
that. The nitrate is 0.

I have noticed that we have a slight salt leeching down one end of the
tank - it's a yellow color, and I scrape it off every couple of days -
this may be down to over zealous razor blading on our part - I think
the seal around the top (plastic retainer) perhaps got a little sliced
- but the yellow color it shows has me a little worried - as I had one
more before we lowered the level a 1/2 inch - it was white - surely
our salt would leave a white residue - not a yellow one.

Now - having lost about $30-40 of fish in a short time, I'm asking if
I should be testing for anything other than NH3, NO2 and NO3, pH. I'm
really wary of just adding new fish, as I have only 6 mollies left,
plus 1 chromis, 1 citron gobie, and PERHAPS 1 green clown gobie (if
it's hiding, not dead some place (which it might be - making my
ammonia spike a little).

Any ideas from a long term sal****er keeper would be GREATLY
appreciated.

thanks

Greg Hewitt-Long

The purpose of the cycle it to produce enough beneficial bacteria in your tank
to support the livestock you want to keep.

Each time you add new fish, you change the balance and the bacteria has to
adjust (grow and propagate) to handle the new bio-load.

100g tank needs 100lbs to 150lbs of LR for good natural filtration.

Yellow indicates possible oxygenation issues *maybe*. Do you have an airstone
in your tank, like people use in freshwater tanks? Are you using a protein
skimmer?

I'm sorry about your losses. Many people in this hobby encourage new people to
not use live fish to cycle a tank, but rather to put a couple of (dead) shrimp
(from the deli) in the tank to rot for a couple of weeks. That gets the cycle
going nicely.

Don't add any more livestock, and do the full battery of tests again. You want
to know pH, nitrites, nitrates and ammonia. Alkalinity being "fine" isn't a
reading, it is a guesstimate at best. Try a kit that gives you results in meq/L
or dKH. (8 - 11 dKH is the goal range to match natural sea water (NSW)). Also,
what is your temperature in your tank? If it gets over 84F, it might be adding
to the deaths. What is your salinity? NSW is 1.026 sg or 35 ppt. Do you top
off the evaporated water with fresh water or sal****er? Only use Freshwater.

Do you treat the water to remove chlorine and chloramines? Seachem's "Prime" is
the product I used for my tank before I bought an RO/DI unit to make pure water.

Marc


Greg Hewitt-Long wrote:

Hi,

I'm new to sal****er, and I've cycled a 100 gallon tank I purchased
from a neighbor. It was previously a freshwater tank, but had been in
storages for about 2 years.

We cycled using live rock (about 15lbs) and silver mollies. During
the cycling we lost about 10 mollies - most during the initial nitrite
spike. I'm told by the LFS that this isn't that unusual... but I did
raise an eyebrow - but not having anyone else I know into sal****er
locally except one guy - I didn't have much of a reference. He said
he lost about 5 from 20 during his cycle.. a much lower rate... hmmm..

Anyway - we added some sal****er fish after cycling - 2 green clown
gobies, and 2 citron gobies. 1 citron and 1 clown die within 48 hours
- hmmm... expensive game this.

10 days later, I decide to add three small green chromis - a hardy
fish I'm told. 72 hours later, 2 have died.

Our other green clown can't be found - for those with an idea to add
gobies - my advice is to only add gobies if you don't need to see
them.. I'm not sure if the green clown is alive still - they yellow
one is - he sticks out, even when hidding in a dead coral head!

This is getting a little annoying.. not to mention these fish I have
to eventually replace.

I've been testing regularly - the pH is 8.0 - Alkaninity is fine - the
ammonia appeared to have spiked a little today (dead fish overnight
perhaps - otherwise a spike from a newly cycled tank with a less than
complete bio filter?).

Anyway - my nitrites are tiny - not quite 0, but 0.1 ppm perhaps - if
that. The nitrate is 0.

I have noticed that we have a slight salt leeching down one end of the
tank - it's a yellow color, and I scrape it off every couple of days -
this may be down to over zealous razor blading on our part - I think
the seal around the top (plastic retainer) perhaps got a little sliced
- but the yellow color it shows has me a little worried - as I had one
more before we lowered the level a 1/2 inch - it was white - surely
our salt would leave a white residue - not a yellow one.

Now - having lost about $30-40 of fish in a short time, I'm asking if
I should be testing for anything other than NH3, NO2 and NO3, pH. I'm
really wary of just adding new fish, as I have only 6 mollies left,
plus 1 chromis, 1 citron gobie, and PERHAPS 1 green clown gobie (if
it's hiding, not dead some place (which it might be - making my
ammonia spike a little).

Any ideas from a long term sal****er keeper would be GREATLY
appreciated.

thanks

Greg Hewitt-Long

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

there is so much to know about cycling -- and so many different opinions on
"how" do to these things. There are some great websites with pages
specifically laid out for starting a tank, but again ,you will find a lot of
conflicting information on them.

Here's what I know from making a lot of mistakes, reading a lot of
conflicting information and sorting through it, and trying it all.

Live Rock, Live Sand, protein skimmer - lots of water circulation and tons
of patience. rule of thumb#1 - one pound of live rock for every gallon of
water in your tank. 2-4 inches of live sand. a good protein skimmer. at
least two good power heads turning over the water at the rate of about 4x
per hour or more. I use a tank with pre-drilled corners and a 30 gallon
sump and a huge return pump (800 gph) -- I have a 125 reef. Before you put
fish in, you should put in a cleanup crew -- hermit crabs, emerald crab or
2, and perhaps a few cleaner shrimp. When you see algae growing on the side
of the tank, add snails -- rule of thumb #2 - one snail and one hermit crab
for every gallon of water. Rule of thumb #3. Be patient. When you do add
fish - be sure you only add the ones you want forever. Don't put in things
like damsels because they are "hardy" and then find out later that there is
no way you will ever catch them to get the little pugnacious creatures OUT
when they wreak havoc on the other more peaceful tank creatures you place in
the tank.

Be selective, do your homework, pray a lot and be patient!

Good luck!
"Greg Hewitt-Long" wrote in message
m...
Hi,

I'm new to sal****er, and I've cycled a 100 gallon tank I purchased
from a neighbor. It was previously a freshwater tank, but had been in
storages for about 2 years.

We cycled using live rock (about 15lbs) and silver mollies. During
the cycling we lost about 10 mollies - most during the initial nitrite
spike. I'm told by the LFS that this isn't that unusual... but I did
raise an eyebrow - but not having anyone else I know into sal****er
locally except one guy - I didn't have much of a reference. He said
he lost about 5 from 20 during his cycle.. a much lower rate... hmmm..

Anyway - we added some sal****er fish after cycling - 2 green clown
gobies, and 2 citron gobies. 1 citron and 1 clown die within 48 hours
- hmmm... expensive game this.

10 days later, I decide to add three small green chromis - a hardy
fish I'm told. 72 hours later, 2 have died.

Our other green clown can't be found - for those with an idea to add
gobies - my advice is to only add gobies if you don't need to see
them.. I'm not sure if the green clown is alive still - they yellow
one is - he sticks out, even when hidding in a dead coral head!

This is getting a little annoying.. not to mention these fish I have
to eventually replace.

I've been testing regularly - the pH is 8.0 - Alkaninity is fine - the
ammonia appeared to have spiked a little today (dead fish overnight
perhaps - otherwise a spike from a newly cycled tank with a less than
complete bio filter?).

Anyway - my nitrites are tiny - not quite 0, but 0.1 ppm perhaps - if
that. The nitrate is 0.

I have noticed that we have a slight salt leeching down one end of the
tank - it's a yellow color, and I scrape it off every couple of days -
this may be down to over zealous razor blading on our part - I think
the seal around the top (plastic retainer) perhaps got a little sliced
- but the yellow color it shows has me a little worried - as I had one
more before we lowered the level a 1/2 inch - it was white - surely
our salt would leave a white residue - not a yellow one.

Now - having lost about $30-40 of fish in a short time, I'm asking if
I should be testing for anything other than NH3, NO2 and NO3, pH. I'm
really wary of just adding new fish, as I have only 6 mollies left,
plus 1 chromis, 1 citron gobie, and PERHAPS 1 green clown gobie (if
it's hiding, not dead some place (which it might be - making my
ammonia spike a little).

Any ideas from a long term sal****er keeper would be GREATLY
appreciated.

thanks

Greg Hewitt-Long

Marc Levenson wrote in message ...
The purpose of the cycle it to produce enough beneficial bacteria in your tank
to support the livestock you want to keep.

Each time you add new fish, you change the balance and the bacteria has to
adjust (grow and propagate) to handle the new bio-load.

100g tank needs 100lbs to 150lbs of LR for good natural filtration.

Yellow indicates possible oxygenation issues *maybe*. Do you have an airstone
in your tank, like people use in freshwater tanks? Are you using a protein
skimmer?

I'm sorry about your losses. Many people in this hobby encourage new people to
not use live fish to cycle a tank, but rather to put a couple of (dead) shrimp
(from the deli) in the tank to rot for a couple of weeks. That gets the cycle
going nicely.

Don't add any more livestock, and do the full battery of tests again. You want
to know pH, nitrites, nitrates and ammonia. Alkalinity being "fine" isn't a
reading, it is a guesstimate at best. Try a kit that gives you results in meq/L
or dKH. (8 - 11 dKH is the goal range to match natural sea water (NSW)). Also,
what is your temperature in your tank? If it gets over 84F, it might be adding
to the deaths. What is your salinity? NSW is 1.026 sg or 35 ppt. Do you top
off the evaporated water with fresh water or sal****er? Only use Freshwater.

Do you treat the water to remove chlorine and chloramines? Seachem's "Prime" is
the product I used for my tank before I bought an RO/DI unit to make pure water.

ok - much more details:

The tank is 100 gallon
I have an AMirtacle SR-300B wet/dry using a Rio 3100 (900 gal/hr)
return - the drop is 3 feet
Yes, we have an air stone - the wife wanted some movement - and it
does look "nicer" - if it's mesing with the chemistry, it can be gone
immediately.
There is no protein skimmer - as yet, but it is on my birthday list
(on Friday).

The tank has two 4 ft lighting tubes - 1 is a regular tube, the other
is a 50/50 tube - I have them on a timer for 9.5 hours a day.

Current Test Results:

Temp: 75 degrees
pH: 7.8
Alkaninity: in the normal zone (that's my only choices apart from
low/high on this red sea test kit)
Ammonia (NH3/NH4): 0 ppm
Nitrite (NO2): 0.05 ppm
Nitrate (NO3): 0 ppm
Salinity is 1.025

The top-offs are using fresh water - and I've been using tap water -
the LFS has told me that the local "tap" water isn't a problem for
sal****er here... which I'm tending to believe, as the could have sold
me an RO system for several hundred - they didn't though. Most of my
advice has been coming from the staff, not owners - they tend to be a
little more "helpful" - they are saying what NOT to buy more than what
to buy - which makes me feel a lot happier than dealing with either of
the owners, who simply gush "how beautiful" or "pretty" a particular
fish, or even piece of LR would look in the tank).

The tank had been "cycling" for 7 weeks with mollies and about 15 lbs
of live rock, plus the dead coral heads and pukka shell substrate
(about 20lbs for a light bottom covering) - I've recently added about
10 more lbs of LR as 5, 4 and 1 lb (the LFS had all it's LR in curing
for weeks - they had a large bad batch which meant I couldn't buy any
for a long time - the plan was to add more each week).

I only have 1 suspect piece of LR - it was added while still smelling
a little sulphurous - I'm not in the habit of pulling them out too if
they are ok though.

The tank has a fairly large amount of brown algae that bloomed and
covered virtually all of the dead coral heads (stag horns, elk horns
and a few smaller pieces of tighter knit coral heads).

I've recently seen the addition of green algae to the tank heater and
back wall although it's not much.

The two original piece of LR are covered in brown algae - the pencil
brush algaes are growing - 5 more are sprouting from the rock.

This appears to be growing - the tank just kills most of my fish
though...

tia

Greg



Marc


Greg Hewitt-Long wrote:

Hi,

I'm new to sal****er, and I've cycled a 100 gallon tank I purchased
from a neighbor. It was previously a freshwater tank, but had been in
storages for about 2 years.

We cycled using live rock (about 15lbs) and silver mollies. During
the cycling we lost about 10 mollies - most during the initial nitrite
spike. I'm told by the LFS that this isn't that unusual... but I did
raise an eyebrow - but not having anyone else I know into sal****er
locally except one guy - I didn't have much of a reference. He said
he lost about 5 from 20 during his cycle.. a much lower rate... hmmm..

Anyway - we added some sal****er fish after cycling - 2 green clown
gobies, and 2 citron gobies. 1 citron and 1 clown die within 48 hours
- hmmm... expensive game this.

10 days later, I decide to add three small green chromis - a hardy
fish I'm told. 72 hours later, 2 have died.

Our other green clown can't be found - for those with an idea to add
gobies - my advice is to only add gobies if you don't need to see
them.. I'm not sure if the green clown is alive still - they yellow
one is - he sticks out, even when hidding in a dead coral head!

This is getting a little annoying.. not to mention these fish I have
to eventually replace.

I've been testing regularly - the pH is 8.0 - Alkaninity is fine - the
ammonia appeared to have spiked a little today (dead fish overnight
perhaps - otherwise a spike from a newly cycled tank with a less than
complete bio filter?).

Anyway - my nitrites are tiny - not quite 0, but 0.1 ppm perhaps - if
that. The nitrate is 0.

I have noticed that we have a slight salt leeching down one end of the
tank - it's a yellow color, and I scrape it off every couple of days -
this may be down to over zealous razor blading on our part - I think
the seal around the top (plastic retainer) perhaps got a little sliced
- but the yellow color it shows has me a little worried - as I had one
more before we lowered the level a 1/2 inch - it was white - surely
our salt would leave a white residue - not a yellow one.

Now - having lost about $30-40 of fish in a short time, I'm asking if
I should be testing for anything other than NH3, NO2 and NO3, pH. I'm
really wary of just adding new fish, as I have only 6 mollies left,
plus 1 chromis, 1 citron gobie, and PERHAPS 1 green clown gobie (if
it's hiding, not dead some place (which it might be - making my
ammonia spike a little).

Any ideas from a long term sal****er keeper would be GREATLY
appreciated.

thanks

Greg Hewitt-Long

Greg Hewitt-Long wrote:

The tank is 100 gallon
I have an AMirtacle SR-300B wet/dry using a Rio 3100 (900 gal/hr)
return - the drop is 3 feet
Yes, we have an air stone - the wife wanted some movement - and it
does look "nicer" - if it's mesing with the chemistry, it can be gone
immediately.

The micro bubbles created by an airstone can pose a problem for fish, as these will collect
in their gills and suffocate them. I've read this numerous times, so I personally don't
have airbubbles in my tank intentionally.

There is no protein skimmer - as yet, but it is on my birthday list
(on Friday).

What kind do you want to get?

The tank has two 4 ft lighting tubes - 1 is a regular tube, the other
is a 50/50 tube - I have them on a timer for 9.5 hours a day.

Low lighting is fine for fish only. Later on, you'll need more intense light if you hope to
add invertibrates and corals.

Current Test Results:

Temp: 75 degrees

Too cold. You want your tank to be between 78 and 82F.

Btw, you didn't mention how you acclimated your new fish, which also could have contributed
to some of those deaths.

pH: 7.8

Too low. Unless you took that early in the morning before the lights came on? 8.0 to 8.3
is the goal. "Proper pH" will boost your water up to the right level. Or using baking soda
(mixed in a cup of water, poured in slowly).

Alkaninity: in the normal zone (that's my only choices apart from low/high on this red sea
test kit)

I really hate that kit. Imagine your gas guage in your car: Great - Good - Thirsty.

Ammonia (NH3/NH4): 0 ppm
Nitrite (NO2): 0.05 ppm
Nitrate (NO3): 0 ppm
Salinity is 1.025

Salinity is close enough. Try to keep it at that point.

The top-offs are using fresh water - and I've been using tap water -
the LFS has told me that the local "tap" water isn't a problem for
sal****er here... which I'm tending to believe, as the could have sold
me an RO system for several hundred - they didn't though. Most of my
advice has been coming from the staff, not owners - they tend to be a
little more "helpful" - they are saying what NOT to buy more than what
to buy - which makes me feel a lot happier than dealing with either of
the owners, who simply gush "how beautiful" or "pretty" a particular
fish, or even piece of LR would look in the tank).

You can use fresh tap water, but you must condition it first to remove chlorine and
chloramines. Your LFS staff will surely know what "Prime" is, and you need one capful to 5
gals of water. Mix that up for a few minutes, and you can pour that in. Btw, a good RO/DI
unit is only $149..... I sell 'em!

The tank had been "cycling" for 7 weeks with mollies and about 15 lbs
of live rock, plus the dead coral heads and pukka shell substrate
(about 20lbs for a light bottom covering) - I've recently added about
10 more lbs of LR as 5, 4 and 1 lb (the LFS had all it's LR in curing
for weeks - they had a large bad batch which meant I couldn't buy any
for a long time - the plan was to add more each week).

I only have 1 suspect piece of LR - it was added while still smelling
a little sulphurous - I'm not in the habit of pulling them out too if
they are ok though.

Every rock should smell clean and fresh. If it reeks at all, don't put it in your tank. I
did the same method, adding a little bit at a time, but I always picked the rock by shape,
appearance, and smell. I never had a prolonged cycle.

Did you 'seed' you sand bed with live sand? Live Sand (LS) as in a cup or two from an
existing sand bed in the LFS's refugium or display tank? That is the best way to get some
good microfauna into your tank. When you get a cup, don't sprinkle it everywhere. Just
pour it gently and slowly in one spot, making a small mound. The kritters will spread out
naturally. Since you have a 100g, you'd want 2 or 3 cups worth, to make a few mounds.

The tank has a fairly large amount of brown algae that bloomed and
covered virtually all of the dead coral heads (stag horns, elk horns
and a few smaller pieces of tighter knit coral heads).

This is normal. It is a diatom bloom.

I've recently seen the addition of green algae to the tank heater and
back wall although it's not much.

This is normal as well.

The two original piece of LR are covered in brown algae - the pencil
brush algaes are growing - 5 more are sprouting from the rock.

This appears to be growing - the tank just kills most of my fish
though...

I think raising your temperature to 78F and discussing how you acclimate might solve the
problem.

Marc


--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

I would personally raise your temps to 82 -- there was an interesting thread
last week about this very thing. I keep my 2 reefs at 82-85 -- very happy
and very healthy. To acclimate the fish, float the bags for 20 minutes or
so to adjust the water temps, then I'd add a little tank water into the
bags -- perhaps 1/2 cup every 10 minutes or so, until you have about 50/50
mixture -- also never pour your LFS water into your tank -- instead pour the
bag of water into a 5 gallon bucket through a net and toss the fish into the
tank from there. The difference between your PH at 7.8 and the LFS
(generally kept at 8.1- 8.3) and the temp changes, could cause PH shock and
death relatively quickly. Especially considering that most fish are already
stressed out when you buy them, depending on how long they've been in the
LFS. If they just arrived (which is most often the case) then they've been
through a lot of trauma in the capture & shipment portion the their recent
history.

"Michelle Leonard" wrote in message
. ..
there is so much to know about cycling -- and so many different opinions
on
"how" do to these things. There are some great websites with pages
specifically laid out for starting a tank, but again ,you will find a lot
of
conflicting information on them.

Here's what I know from making a lot of mistakes, reading a lot of
conflicting information and sorting through it, and trying it all.

Live Rock, Live Sand, protein skimmer - lots of water circulation and tons
of patience. rule of thumb#1 - one pound of live rock for every gallon of
water in your tank. 2-4 inches of live sand. a good protein skimmer. at
least two good power heads turning over the water at the rate of about 4x
per hour or more. I use a tank with pre-drilled corners and a 30 gallon
sump and a huge return pump (800 gph) -- I have a 125 reef. Before you
put
fish in, you should put in a cleanup crew -- hermit crabs, emerald crab or
2, and perhaps a few cleaner shrimp. When you see algae growing on the
side
of the tank, add snails -- rule of thumb #2 - one snail and one hermit
crab
for every gallon of water. Rule of thumb #3. Be patient. When you do
add
fish - be sure you only add the ones you want forever. Don't put in
things
like damsels because they are "hardy" and then find out later that there
is
no way you will ever catch them to get the little pugnacious creatures OUT
when they wreak havoc on the other more peaceful tank creatures you place
in
the tank.

Be selective, do your homework, pray a lot and be patient!

Good luck!
"Greg Hewitt-Long" wrote in message
m...
Hi,

I'm new to sal****er, and I've cycled a 100 gallon tank I purchased
from a neighbor. It was previously a freshwater tank, but had been in
storages for about 2 years.

We cycled using live rock (about 15lbs) and silver mollies. During
the cycling we lost about 10 mollies - most during the initial nitrite
spike. I'm told by the LFS that this isn't that unusual... but I did
raise an eyebrow - but not having anyone else I know into sal****er
locally except one guy - I didn't have much of a reference. He said
he lost about 5 from 20 during his cycle.. a much lower rate... hmmm..

Anyway - we added some sal****er fish after cycling - 2 green clown
gobies, and 2 citron gobies. 1 citron and 1 clown die within 48 hours
- hmmm... expensive game this.

10 days later, I decide to add three small green chromis - a hardy
fish I'm told. 72 hours later, 2 have died.

Our other green clown can't be found - for those with an idea to add
gobies - my advice is to only add gobies if you don't need to see
them.. I'm not sure if the green clown is alive still - they yellow
one is - he sticks out, even when hidding in a dead coral head!

This is getting a little annoying.. not to mention these fish I have
to eventually replace.

I've been testing regularly - the pH is 8.0 - Alkaninity is fine - the
ammonia appeared to have spiked a little today (dead fish overnight
perhaps - otherwise a spike from a newly cycled tank with a less than
complete bio filter?).

Anyway - my nitrites are tiny - not quite 0, but 0.1 ppm perhaps - if
that. The nitrate is 0.

I have noticed that we have a slight salt leeching down one end of the
tank - it's a yellow color, and I scrape it off every couple of days -
this may be down to over zealous razor blading on our part - I think
the seal around the top (plastic retainer) perhaps got a little sliced
- but the yellow color it shows has me a little worried - as I had one
more before we lowered the level a 1/2 inch - it was white - surely
our salt would leave a white residue - not a yellow one.

Now - having lost about $30-40 of fish in a short time, I'm asking if
I should be testing for anything other than NH3, NO2 and NO3, pH. I'm
really wary of just adding new fish, as I have only 6 mollies left,
plus 1 chromis, 1 citron gobie, and PERHAPS 1 green clown gobie (if
it's hiding, not dead some place (which it might be - making my
ammonia spike a little).

Any ideas from a long term sal****er keeper would be GREATLY
appreciated.

thanks

Greg Hewitt-Long

Marc Levenson wrote in message ...
Greg Hewitt-Long wrote:

The tank is 100 gallon
I have an AMirtacle SR-300B wet/dry using a Rio 3100 (900 gal/hr)
return - the drop is 3 feet
Yes, we have an air stone - the wife wanted some movement - and it
does look "nicer" - if it's mesing with the chemistry, it can be gone
immediately.

The micro bubbles created by an airstone can pose a problem for fish, as these will collect
in their gills and suffocate them. I've read this numerous times, so I personally don't
have airbubbles in my tank intentionally.

I hear what you're saying - but do you scuba dive? I've got about 6
months underwater time - reef margins are full of bubbles. I was very
careful to make sure that we used large bubbles, not micro bubbles.
While I appreciate that this MAY have an impact on some fish, I'm not
100% sure that it can kill.... the reef margins up to say 4 ft of
water often contain bubble that I've seen wild fish play with.


There is no protein skimmer - as yet, but it is on my birthday list
(on Friday).

What kind do you want to get?

I was looking at the quad models from amiracle - the theory seems
sound, make the watter flow 4 times the distance to increase the time
that the bubble are in contact with the water... if you have a better
model, I'm all ears. I want to buy one skimmer, not one a month until
I get it "right".


The tank has two 4 ft lighting tubes - 1 is a regular tube, the other
is a 50/50 tube - I have them on a timer for 9.5 hours a day.

Low lighting is fine for fish only. Later on, you'll need more intense light if you hope to
add invertibrates and corals.

The next agenda involves hermits as cleanup - these little fellows
don't require heavy duty lightning, right?


Current Test Results:

Temp: 75 degrees

Too cold. You want your tank to be between 78 and 82F.

I cranked up the temp - about 1 degree every couple of hours - I'm not
sure if that wasn't a little too fast, but I see the shaving brush
algaes on my LR have grown about 1/8 inch in the day - the new growth
is a much lighter green color.


Btw, you didn't mention how you acclimated your new fish, which also could have contributed
to some of those deaths.


This is my biggest fear - the LFS said to put them right in - the more
I look around, that's NEVER the advice I see. While I see
contradictory advice on almost everything, the aclimation almost
always involved a staged water exchange.... this is COMPLETELY the
reverse of the LFS advice - which may not be too bad as long as our
water was up to temp.

The yellow gobie has become "active" - he's still a hider, but last
night he was out of his favorite coral head, and all over the tank -
he even sat basking in the return inflow - almost pushing him off the
coral head. He's grown orange/pink cheeks - and I think he looks
about as healthy as I've ever seen him.


pH: 7.8

Too low. Unless you took that early in the morning before the lights came on? 8.0 to 8.3
is the goal. "Proper pH" will boost your water up to the right level. Or using baking soda
(mixed in a cup of water, poured in slowly).


It was taken before the lights were on - I've checked it again in the
afternoon, and the lights had been on for 2 hours - this time it was
8.0. I had no idea that the lights could affect the pH like this.
Would someone who paid attention in chemistry care to explain...
tia...



Alkaninity: in the normal zone (that's my only choices apart from low/high on this red sea
test kit)

I really hate that kit. Imagine your gas guage in your car: Great - Good - Thirsty.

heh.. that's how my thunderbird tank works... almost! Stays above the
full for about 100 miles, then plummets to about 1/3 over the next 50
miles, then take another 200 miles to use the last "third" of the
guage! and "Yes!" - it's annoying as hell!


Ammonia (NH3/NH4): 0 ppm
Nitrite (NO2): 0.05 ppm
Nitrate (NO3): 0 ppm
Salinity is 1.025

Salinity is close enough. Try to keep it at that point.

The top-offs are using fresh water - and I've been using tap water -
the LFS has told me that the local "tap" water isn't a problem for
sal****er here... which I'm tending to believe, as the could have sold
me an RO system for several hundred - they didn't though. Most of my
advice has been coming from the staff, not owners - they tend to be a
little more "helpful" - they are saying what NOT to buy more than what
to buy - which makes me feel a lot happier than dealing with either of
the owners, who simply gush "how beautiful" or "pretty" a particular
fish, or even piece of LR would look in the tank).

You can use fresh tap water, but you must condition it first to remove chlorine and
chloramines. Your LFS staff will surely know what "Prime" is, and you need one capful to 5
gals of water. Mix that up for a few minutes, and you can pour that in. Btw, a good RO/DI
unit is only $149..... I sell 'em!

I'm seeing that these are around $100-$120 on ebay for a 5 or 6 stage
RO/DI unit - which I'm definitely considering... however, on of my
work colleagues keeps freshwater, and he suggested walmart has RO
water for about $0.33 a gallon - which would work for top-ups - now
water changes are going to be different ball game... while I'm on the
subject - the LFS is recommending 20% change about once every two
months - I've seen people say 10% every week (which would dictate an
RO/DI setup of my own) - given that your reefs appear to look rather
good - what say you?


The tank had been "cycling" for 7 weeks with mollies and about 15 lbs
of live rock, plus the dead coral heads and pukka shell substrate
(about 20lbs for a light bottom covering) - I've recently added about
10 more lbs of LR as 5, 4 and 1 lb (the LFS had all it's LR in curing
for weeks - they had a large bad batch which meant I couldn't buy any
for a long time - the plan was to add more each week).

I only have 1 suspect piece of LR - it was added while still smelling
a little sulphurous - I'm not in the habit of pulling them out too if
they are ok though.

Every rock should smell clean and fresh. If it reeks at all, don't put it in your tank. I
did the same method, adding a little bit at a time, but I always picked the rock by shape,
appearance, and smell. I never had a prolonged cycle.


I realised that after purchasing the rock - it was such an attractive
piece - but since almost everything died on it , I'd have been better
off waiting and buying it cured. I won't make that mistake again
until I get my own curing tank, bucket, spare skimmer, heater setup.


Did you 'seed' you sand bed with live sand? Live Sand (LS) as in a cup or two from an
existing sand bed in the LFS's refugium or display tank? That is the best way to get some
good microfauna into your tank. When you get a cup, don't sprinkle it everywhere. Just
pour it gently and slowly in one spot, making a small mound. The kritters will spread out
naturally. Since you have a 100g, you'd want 2 or 3 cups worth, to make a few mounds.

No - I never seeded it - the LFS told me it wasn't necessary.... again
- starting to suspect the LFS advice....



The tank has a fairly large amount of brown algae that bloomed and
covered virtually all of the dead coral heads (stag horns, elk horns
and a few smaller pieces of tighter knit coral heads).

This is normal. It is a diatom bloom.


Would you scrape/scrub it off?

I've recently seen the addition of green algae to the tank heater and
back wall although it's not much.

This is normal as well.



Good.

The two original piece of LR are covered in brown algae - the pencil
brush algaes are growing - 5 more are sprouting from the rock.

This appears to be growing - the tank just kills most of my fish
though...

I think raising your temperature to 78F and discussing how you acclimate might solve the
problem.

My "new" acclimation process will be much more gradual - the temp has
been raised to about 78-80 - this appears to have made my existing
livestock a lot happier... which makes me happier.

I'm going to hold off putting in anything new until next week - with
the birthday on Friday, I've got everyone clubbing together to get me
bits and pieces, plus a cleanup crew - I've selected exact items and
circulated the list - but no-one is supposed to have anything for me
until Tuesday next week (I'm leaving town for the weekend, so I don't
want to introduce anything before I leave).

thanks for the advice!

Greg



Marc

"Michelle Leonard" wrote in message m...
I would personally raise your temps to 82 -- there was an interesting thread
last week about this very thing. I keep my 2 reefs at 82-85 -- very happy
and very healthy. To acclimate the fish, float the bags for 20 minutes or
so to adjust the water temps, then I'd add a little tank water into the
bags -- perhaps 1/2 cup every 10 minutes or so, until you have about 50/50
mixture -- also never pour your LFS water into your tank -- instead pour the
bag of water into a 5 gallon bucket through a net and toss the fish into the
tank from there. The difference between your PH at 7.8 and the LFS
(generally kept at 8.1- 8.3) and the temp changes, could cause PH shock and
death relatively quickly. Especially considering that most fish are already
stressed out when you buy them, depending on how long they've been in the
LFS. If they just arrived (which is most often the case) then they've been
through a lot of trauma in the capture & shipment portion the their recent
history.


I've raised the temp to 78-80 - I see immediate macro algae growth,
and the one true marine fish I can find (yellow gobie), is really
happier - he's swimming around rather than hiding all day - this as a
direct result of you and Marc's advice - my acclimation was definitely
a little too extreme - following the advice of the LFS... grrr... I'm
done listening to them...

My pH will be raised a little!

I'd already decided that purchasing livestock immediately following
their arrival is pretty dumb - I'm of the opinion that the LFS should
keep them for at least 2-3 days before I purchase them - let them have
the stress deaths, not me!

thanks

Greg




"Michelle Leonard" wrote in message
. ..
there is so much to know about cycling -- and so many different opinions
on
"how" do to these things. There are some great websites with pages
specifically laid out for starting a tank, but again ,you will find a lot
of
conflicting information on them.

Here's what I know from making a lot of mistakes, reading a lot of
conflicting information and sorting through it, and trying it all.

Live Rock, Live Sand, protein skimmer - lots of water circulation and tons
of patience. rule of thumb#1 - one pound of live rock for every gallon of
water in your tank. 2-4 inches of live sand. a good protein skimmer. at
least two good power heads turning over the water at the rate of about 4x
per hour or more. I use a tank with pre-drilled corners and a 30 gallon
sump and a huge return pump (800 gph) -- I have a 125 reef. Before you
put
fish in, you should put in a cleanup crew -- hermit crabs, emerald crab or
2, and perhaps a few cleaner shrimp. When you see algae growing on the
side
of the tank, add snails -- rule of thumb #2 - one snail and one hermit
crab
for every gallon of water. Rule of thumb #3. Be patient. When you do
add
fish - be sure you only add the ones you want forever. Don't put in
things
like damsels because they are "hardy" and then find out later that there
is
no way you will ever catch them to get the little pugnacious creatures OUT
when they wreak havoc on the other more peaceful tank creatures you place
in
the tank.

Be selective, do your homework, pray a lot and be patient!

Good luck!
"Greg Hewitt-Long" wrote in message
m...
Hi,

I'm new to sal****er, and I've cycled a 100 gallon tank I purchased
from a neighbor. It was previously a freshwater tank, but had been in
storages for about 2 years.

We cycled using live rock (about 15lbs) and silver mollies. During
the cycling we lost about 10 mollies - most during the initial nitrite
spike. I'm told by the LFS that this isn't that unusual... but I did
raise an eyebrow - but not having anyone else I know into sal****er
locally except one guy - I didn't have much of a reference. He said
he lost about 5 from 20 during his cycle.. a much lower rate... hmmm..

Anyway - we added some sal****er fish after cycling - 2 green clown
gobies, and 2 citron gobies. 1 citron and 1 clown die within 48 hours
- hmmm... expensive game this.

10 days later, I decide to add three small green chromis - a hardy
fish I'm told. 72 hours later, 2 have died.

Our other green clown can't be found - for those with an idea to add
gobies - my advice is to only add gobies if you don't need to see
them.. I'm not sure if the green clown is alive still - they yellow
one is - he sticks out, even when hidding in a dead coral head!

This is getting a little annoying.. not to mention these fish I have
to eventually replace.

I've been testing regularly - the pH is 8.0 - Alkaninity is fine - the
ammonia appeared to have spiked a little today (dead fish overnight
perhaps - otherwise a spike from a newly cycled tank with a less than
complete bio filter?).

Anyway - my nitrites are tiny - not quite 0, but 0.1 ppm perhaps - if
that. The nitrate is 0.

I have noticed that we have a slight salt leeching down one end of the
tank - it's a yellow color, and I scrape it off every couple of days -
this may be down to over zealous razor blading on our part - I think
the seal around the top (plastic retainer) perhaps got a little sliced
- but the yellow color it shows has me a little worried - as I had one
more before we lowered the level a 1/2 inch - it was white - surely
our salt would leave a white residue - not a yellow one.

Now - having lost about $30-40 of fish in a short time, I'm asking if
I should be testing for anything other than NH3, NO2 and NO3, pH. I'm
really wary of just adding new fish, as I have only 6 mollies left,
plus 1 chromis, 1 citron gobie, and PERHAPS 1 green clown gobie (if
it's hiding, not dead some place (which it might be - making my
ammonia spike a little).

Any ideas from a long term sal****er keeper would be GREATLY
appreciated.

thanks

Greg Hewitt-Long

Greg Hewitt-Long wrote:

I hear what you're saying - but do you scuba dive? I've got about 6
months underwater time - reef margins are full of bubbles. I was very
careful to make sure that we used large bubbles, not micro bubbles.
While I appreciate that this MAY have an impact on some fish, I'm not
100% sure that it can kill.... the reef margins up to say 4 ft of
water often contain bubble that I've seen wild fish play with.

No, but I do snorket, and you are right about the zillions of bubbles. However, the fish do have
the *option* of swimming out of that environment if they so choose, which they can't do in a
contained environment like our tanks. Let's just say that my advice isn't perfect, but I do try
to err on the side of caution.

I was looking at the quad models from amiracle - the theory seems
sound, make the watter flow 4 times the distance to increase the time
that the bubble are in contact with the water... if you have a better
model, I'm all ears. I want to buy one skimmer, not one a month until
I get it "right".

I would say that EuroReef gets the best approval rating from hobbyists, and the Aqua C line isn't
far behind. I'm not familiar with the Amiracle line of PS, but that doesn't mean they are no
good. The EuroReef skimmer (and there is a knockoff, btw) uses a needle-wheel impellar to make
super fine bubbles. They are built like a tank, and aren't hard to fine tune. The Aqua C uses a
spray injector system, it is what I'm using on both of my tanks.

The next agenda involves hermits as cleanup - these little fellows
don't require heavy duty lightning, right?

Crabs don't care about lightning or lighting. grin I was referring to corals mainly, which are
invertibrates. Some kind soul reminded me here, not too long ago, that inverts don't have a
backbone.

I cranked up the temp - about 1 degree every couple of hours - I'm not
sure if that wasn't a little too fast, but I see the shaving brush
algaes on my LR have grown about 1/8 inch in the day - the new growth
is a much lighter green color.

That'll be okay. I've had a tank down in the 60s (during a move) go back up to 78F as fast as the
heater was able to do it, and the fish were starving for food within mere hours. I was sure
they'd be in a state of shock, but they seemed very happy to be warm again, and ready to eat!This
is my biggest fear - the LFS said to put them right in - the more

I look around, that's NEVER the advice I see. While I see
contradictory advice on almost everything, the aclimation almost
always involved a staged water exchange.... this is COMPLETELY the
reverse of the LFS advice - which may not be too bad as long as our
water was up to temp.

Okay, so you know how to acclimate now? Good. Never rush it. Some things need to be acclimated
extremely slowly, such as some starfish that like 10 to 12 hours of acclimation, while other
things can be introduced within the hour. I tend to take 1.5 to 2 hours when I acclimate
something new, because I'm online and distracted. I'll remember to get back in there, and add a
little more water. Finally I introduce the new creature to my tank.

Btw, some things can't be exposed to air during acclimation either, like Sponges. Those have to
be acclimated in the bag, and then the bag will eventually need to be submerged and the sponge
pulled out of the bag and placed in its new location without ever making contact with air. If the
LFS pulls it out and puts it in a bag, walk away.

The yellow gobie has become "active" - he's still a hider, but last
night he was out of his favorite coral head, and all over the tank -
he even sat basking in the return inflow - almost pushing him off the
coral head. He's grown orange/pink cheeks - and I think he looks
about as healthy as I've ever seen him.

Is this a yellow Clown Goby? I had one for years, and he always reminded me of a frog the way
he'd perch on anything, even a flimsy mushroom head.

It was taken before the lights were on - I've checked it again in the
afternoon, and the lights had been on for 2 hours - this time it was
8.0. I had no idea that the lights could affect the pH like this.
Would someone who paid attention in chemistry care to explain...
tia...


Test your pH right before the lights go out. Also, keep in mind that when your CO2 level rises in
your home, especially in the winter when you never let fresh air in, this can depress your pH
levels.

Boomer is our resident chemist, but fwiw, when the lights are on, photosynthesis takes place and
oxygen is produced. This raises the pH, and when the lights are out, there is less oxygen
exchange in your water. A protein skimmer helps in this regard because it is a column of
airbubbles in the reactor, making contact with the display's water column. Having a refugium
connected to your tank with the light on during the night hours can help stablize pH levels,
because the macro plants in the refugium are producing oxygen which is then pumped into the
display tank.

heh.. that's how my thunderbird tank works... almost! Stays above the
full for about 100 miles, then plummets to about 1/3 over the next 50
miles, then take another 200 miles to use the last "third" of the
guage! and "Yes!" - it's annoying as hell!

Well, there are other kits out there. I prefer Salifert myself.

I'm seeing that these are around $100-$120 on ebay for a 5 or 6 stage
RO/DI unit - which I'm definitely considering... however, on of my
work colleagues keeps freshwater, and he suggested walmart has RO
water for about $0.33 a gallon - which would work for top-ups - now
water changes are going to be different ball game... while I'm on the
subject - the LFS is recommending 20% change about once every two
months - I've seen people say 10% every week (which would dictate an
RO/DI setup of my own) - given that your reefs appear to look rather
good - what say you?

Sure, you can buy RO water and your LFS, usually for $0.40 a gallon, or premixed with salt as well
for $0.80 a gallon. I like the availability of RO/DI water in my home, where I can make it as I
need it any time of day or night. Plus I don't have to haul it from a store and into the house.
I carry it about 20 feet to my tank, which is nice. And I've had local reefers call me up in a
panic because they needed water, and I was able to help them out.

The suggestion I prefer is 25% monthly, but I don't even do that myself. My tanks are stable and
water quality is good. I'm able to wait longer between water changes. However, changing 10% of
your water means 90% of the impurities are still there. The next time you change 10%, you leave
90% of the dirty water again. With a 25% water change, you'll leave 75% impurities. This makes
more sense to me. Always match salinity EXACTLY, and temperature within ONE degree.

I realised that after purchasing the rock - it was such an attractive
piece - but since almost everything died on it , I'd have been better
off waiting and buying it cured. I won't make that mistake again
until I get my own curing tank, bucket, spare skimmer, heater setup.

Just buy cured rock, and you won't have to worry about such things. Costs a little more, though.

No - I never seeded it - the LFS told me it wasn't necessary.... again
- starting to suspect the LFS advice....

Seeding your DSB is a good thing. And you can do it anytime you like. You can do it several
times, by getting samples from different people (assuming their tanks look healthy). LR will seed
your DSB, but seeding it in addition to the LR would be a little quicker and more effective, imho.

Would you scrape/scrub it off?

Yep, clean the glass you look through. I never clean the back wall, but I do clean the front and
sides. The stuff you release into the water will be eaten by stuff we can't see, as well as your
fish (which we *can* see). The reason I don't clean the back wall is so my snails definitely have
something to eat if the algae thins out too much. They need to eat something! The stuff you
knock off the front glass is pretty similar to zooplankton, so rather than thinking of it as yet
another cleaning task, think of it as your way of feeding the tank natural foods.

My "new" acclimation process will be much more gradual - the temp has
been raised to about 78-80 - this appears to have made my existing
livestock a lot happier... which makes me happier.

Great!

I'm going to hold off putting in anything new until next week - with
the birthday on Friday, I've got everyone clubbing together to get me
bits and pieces, plus a cleanup crew - I've selected exact items and
circulated the list - but no-one is supposed to have anything for me
until Tuesday next week (I'm leaving town for the weekend, so I don't
want to introduce anything before I leave).

You'll need some type of creature to keep your DSB stirred up *a little bit*, and a Fighting Conch
is a good choice. One conch needs 2 sq ft of surface area to dine upon, so look at your tank and
figure out just how much sand it actually reachable to a creature meandering around your
substrate. If you put too many in, they'll starve each other to death. I have one in my 55g that
does his thing, and quietly grows. It does submerge into my sand for 2 weeks at a time, but that
is normal. It eventually gets back to work.

Marc


--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com