Post cycling deaths... any ideas?

Marc Levenson wrote in message ...
Greg Hewitt-Long wrote:

The tank is 100 gallon
I have an AMirtacle SR-300B wet/dry using a Rio 3100 (900 gal/hr)
return - the drop is 3 feet
Yes, we have an air stone - the wife wanted some movement - and it
does look "nicer" - if it's mesing with the chemistry, it can be gone
immediately.

The micro bubbles created by an airstone can pose a problem for fish, as these will collect
in their gills and suffocate them. I've read this numerous times, so I personally don't
have airbubbles in my tank intentionally.

I hear what you're saying - but do you scuba dive? I've got about 6
months underwater time - reef margins are full of bubbles. I was very
careful to make sure that we used large bubbles, not micro bubbles.
While I appreciate that this MAY have an impact on some fish, I'm not
100% sure that it can kill.... the reef margins up to say 4 ft of
water often contain bubble that I've seen wild fish play with.


There is no protein skimmer - as yet, but it is on my birthday list
(on Friday).

What kind do you want to get?

I was looking at the quad models from amiracle - the theory seems
sound, make the watter flow 4 times the distance to increase the time
that the bubble are in contact with the water... if you have a better
model, I'm all ears. I want to buy one skimmer, not one a month until
I get it "right".


The tank has two 4 ft lighting tubes - 1 is a regular tube, the other
is a 50/50 tube - I have them on a timer for 9.5 hours a day.

Low lighting is fine for fish only. Later on, you'll need more intense light if you hope to
add invertibrates and corals.

The next agenda involves hermits as cleanup - these little fellows
don't require heavy duty lightning, right?


Current Test Results:

Temp: 75 degrees

Too cold. You want your tank to be between 78 and 82F.

I cranked up the temp - about 1 degree every couple of hours - I'm not
sure if that wasn't a little too fast, but I see the shaving brush
algaes on my LR have grown about 1/8 inch in the day - the new growth
is a much lighter green color.


Btw, you didn't mention how you acclimated your new fish, which also could have contributed
to some of those deaths.


This is my biggest fear - the LFS said to put them right in - the more
I look around, that's NEVER the advice I see. While I see
contradictory advice on almost everything, the aclimation almost
always involved a staged water exchange.... this is COMPLETELY the
reverse of the LFS advice - which may not be too bad as long as our
water was up to temp.

The yellow gobie has become "active" - he's still a hider, but last
night he was out of his favorite coral head, and all over the tank -
he even sat basking in the return inflow - almost pushing him off the
coral head. He's grown orange/pink cheeks - and I think he looks
about as healthy as I've ever seen him.


pH: 7.8

Too low. Unless you took that early in the morning before the lights came on? 8.0 to 8.3
is the goal. "Proper pH" will boost your water up to the right level. Or using baking soda
(mixed in a cup of water, poured in slowly).


It was taken before the lights were on - I've checked it again in the
afternoon, and the lights had been on for 2 hours - this time it was
8.0. I had no idea that the lights could affect the pH like this.
Would someone who paid attention in chemistry care to explain...
tia...



Alkaninity: in the normal zone (that's my only choices apart from low/high on this red sea
test kit)

I really hate that kit. Imagine your gas guage in your car: Great - Good - Thirsty.

heh.. that's how my thunderbird tank works... almost! Stays above the
full for about 100 miles, then plummets to about 1/3 over the next 50
miles, then take another 200 miles to use the last "third" of the
guage! and "Yes!" - it's annoying as hell!


Ammonia (NH3/NH4): 0 ppm
Nitrite (NO2): 0.05 ppm
Nitrate (NO3): 0 ppm
Salinity is 1.025

Salinity is close enough. Try to keep it at that point.

The top-offs are using fresh water - and I've been using tap water -
the LFS has told me that the local "tap" water isn't a problem for
sal****er here... which I'm tending to believe, as the could have sold
me an RO system for several hundred - they didn't though. Most of my
advice has been coming from the staff, not owners - they tend to be a
little more "helpful" - they are saying what NOT to buy more than what
to buy - which makes me feel a lot happier than dealing with either of
the owners, who simply gush "how beautiful" or "pretty" a particular
fish, or even piece of LR would look in the tank).

You can use fresh tap water, but you must condition it first to remove chlorine and
chloramines. Your LFS staff will surely know what "Prime" is, and you need one capful to 5
gals of water. Mix that up for a few minutes, and you can pour that in. Btw, a good RO/DI
unit is only $149..... I sell 'em!

I'm seeing that these are around $100-$120 on ebay for a 5 or 6 stage
RO/DI unit - which I'm definitely considering... however, on of my
work colleagues keeps freshwater, and he suggested walmart has RO
water for about $0.33 a gallon - which would work for top-ups - now
water changes are going to be different ball game... while I'm on the
subject - the LFS is recommending 20% change about once every two
months - I've seen people say 10% every week (which would dictate an
RO/DI setup of my own) - given that your reefs appear to look rather
good - what say you?


The tank had been "cycling" for 7 weeks with mollies and about 15 lbs
of live rock, plus the dead coral heads and pukka shell substrate
(about 20lbs for a light bottom covering) - I've recently added about
10 more lbs of LR as 5, 4 and 1 lb (the LFS had all it's LR in curing
for weeks - they had a large bad batch which meant I couldn't buy any
for a long time - the plan was to add more each week).

I only have 1 suspect piece of LR - it was added while still smelling
a little sulphurous - I'm not in the habit of pulling them out too if
they are ok though.

Every rock should smell clean and fresh. If it reeks at all, don't put it in your tank. I
did the same method, adding a little bit at a time, but I always picked the rock by shape,
appearance, and smell. I never had a prolonged cycle.


I realised that after purchasing the rock - it was such an attractive
piece - but since almost everything died on it , I'd have been better
off waiting and buying it cured. I won't make that mistake again
until I get my own curing tank, bucket, spare skimmer, heater setup.


Did you 'seed' you sand bed with live sand? Live Sand (LS) as in a cup or two from an
existing sand bed in the LFS's refugium or display tank? That is the best way to get some
good microfauna into your tank. When you get a cup, don't sprinkle it everywhere. Just
pour it gently and slowly in one spot, making a small mound. The kritters will spread out
naturally. Since you have a 100g, you'd want 2 or 3 cups worth, to make a few mounds.

No - I never seeded it - the LFS told me it wasn't necessary.... again
- starting to suspect the LFS advice....



The tank has a fairly large amount of brown algae that bloomed and
covered virtually all of the dead coral heads (stag horns, elk horns
and a few smaller pieces of tighter knit coral heads).

This is normal. It is a diatom bloom.


Would you scrape/scrub it off?

I've recently seen the addition of green algae to the tank heater and
back wall although it's not much.

This is normal as well.



Good.

The two original piece of LR are covered in brown algae - the pencil
brush algaes are growing - 5 more are sprouting from the rock.

This appears to be growing - the tank just kills most of my fish
though...

I think raising your temperature to 78F and discussing how you acclimate might solve the
problem.

My "new" acclimation process will be much more gradual - the temp has
been raised to about 78-80 - this appears to have made my existing
livestock a lot happier... which makes me happier.

I'm going to hold off putting in anything new until next week - with
the birthday on Friday, I've got everyone clubbing together to get me
bits and pieces, plus a cleanup crew - I've selected exact items and
circulated the list - but no-one is supposed to have anything for me
until Tuesday next week (I'm leaving town for the weekend, so I don't
want to introduce anything before I leave).

thanks for the advice!

Greg



Marc

Greg Hewitt-Long wrote:

I hear what you're saying - but do you scuba dive? I've got about 6
months underwater time - reef margins are full of bubbles. I was very
careful to make sure that we used large bubbles, not micro bubbles.
While I appreciate that this MAY have an impact on some fish, I'm not
100% sure that it can kill.... the reef margins up to say 4 ft of
water often contain bubble that I've seen wild fish play with.

No, but I do snorket, and you are right about the zillions of bubbles. However, the fish do have
the *option* of swimming out of that environment if they so choose, which they can't do in a
contained environment like our tanks. Let's just say that my advice isn't perfect, but I do try
to err on the side of caution.

I was looking at the quad models from amiracle - the theory seems
sound, make the watter flow 4 times the distance to increase the time
that the bubble are in contact with the water... if you have a better
model, I'm all ears. I want to buy one skimmer, not one a month until
I get it "right".

I would say that EuroReef gets the best approval rating from hobbyists, and the Aqua C line isn't
far behind. I'm not familiar with the Amiracle line of PS, but that doesn't mean they are no
good. The EuroReef skimmer (and there is a knockoff, btw) uses a needle-wheel impellar to make
super fine bubbles. They are built like a tank, and aren't hard to fine tune. The Aqua C uses a
spray injector system, it is what I'm using on both of my tanks.

The next agenda involves hermits as cleanup - these little fellows
don't require heavy duty lightning, right?

Crabs don't care about lightning or lighting. grin I was referring to corals mainly, which are
invertibrates. Some kind soul reminded me here, not too long ago, that inverts don't have a
backbone.

I cranked up the temp - about 1 degree every couple of hours - I'm not
sure if that wasn't a little too fast, but I see the shaving brush
algaes on my LR have grown about 1/8 inch in the day - the new growth
is a much lighter green color.

That'll be okay. I've had a tank down in the 60s (during a move) go back up to 78F as fast as the
heater was able to do it, and the fish were starving for food within mere hours. I was sure
they'd be in a state of shock, but they seemed very happy to be warm again, and ready to eat!This
is my biggest fear - the LFS said to put them right in - the more

I look around, that's NEVER the advice I see. While I see
contradictory advice on almost everything, the aclimation almost
always involved a staged water exchange.... this is COMPLETELY the
reverse of the LFS advice - which may not be too bad as long as our
water was up to temp.

Okay, so you know how to acclimate now? Good. Never rush it. Some things need to be acclimated
extremely slowly, such as some starfish that like 10 to 12 hours of acclimation, while other
things can be introduced within the hour. I tend to take 1.5 to 2 hours when I acclimate
something new, because I'm online and distracted. I'll remember to get back in there, and add a
little more water. Finally I introduce the new creature to my tank.

Btw, some things can't be exposed to air during acclimation either, like Sponges. Those have to
be acclimated in the bag, and then the bag will eventually need to be submerged and the sponge
pulled out of the bag and placed in its new location without ever making contact with air. If the
LFS pulls it out and puts it in a bag, walk away.

The yellow gobie has become "active" - he's still a hider, but last
night he was out of his favorite coral head, and all over the tank -
he even sat basking in the return inflow - almost pushing him off the
coral head. He's grown orange/pink cheeks - and I think he looks
about as healthy as I've ever seen him.

Is this a yellow Clown Goby? I had one for years, and he always reminded me of a frog the way
he'd perch on anything, even a flimsy mushroom head.

It was taken before the lights were on - I've checked it again in the
afternoon, and the lights had been on for 2 hours - this time it was
8.0. I had no idea that the lights could affect the pH like this.
Would someone who paid attention in chemistry care to explain...
tia...


Test your pH right before the lights go out. Also, keep in mind that when your CO2 level rises in
your home, especially in the winter when you never let fresh air in, this can depress your pH
levels.

Boomer is our resident chemist, but fwiw, when the lights are on, photosynthesis takes place and
oxygen is produced. This raises the pH, and when the lights are out, there is less oxygen
exchange in your water. A protein skimmer helps in this regard because it is a column of
airbubbles in the reactor, making contact with the display's water column. Having a refugium
connected to your tank with the light on during the night hours can help stablize pH levels,
because the macro plants in the refugium are producing oxygen which is then pumped into the
display tank.

heh.. that's how my thunderbird tank works... almost! Stays above the
full for about 100 miles, then plummets to about 1/3 over the next 50
miles, then take another 200 miles to use the last "third" of the
guage! and "Yes!" - it's annoying as hell!

Well, there are other kits out there. I prefer Salifert myself.

I'm seeing that these are around $100-$120 on ebay for a 5 or 6 stage
RO/DI unit - which I'm definitely considering... however, on of my
work colleagues keeps freshwater, and he suggested walmart has RO
water for about $0.33 a gallon - which would work for top-ups - now
water changes are going to be different ball game... while I'm on the
subject - the LFS is recommending 20% change about once every two
months - I've seen people say 10% every week (which would dictate an
RO/DI setup of my own) - given that your reefs appear to look rather
good - what say you?

Sure, you can buy RO water and your LFS, usually for $0.40 a gallon, or premixed with salt as well
for $0.80 a gallon. I like the availability of RO/DI water in my home, where I can make it as I
need it any time of day or night. Plus I don't have to haul it from a store and into the house.
I carry it about 20 feet to my tank, which is nice. And I've had local reefers call me up in a
panic because they needed water, and I was able to help them out.

The suggestion I prefer is 25% monthly, but I don't even do that myself. My tanks are stable and
water quality is good. I'm able to wait longer between water changes. However, changing 10% of
your water means 90% of the impurities are still there. The next time you change 10%, you leave
90% of the dirty water again. With a 25% water change, you'll leave 75% impurities. This makes
more sense to me. Always match salinity EXACTLY, and temperature within ONE degree.

I realised that after purchasing the rock - it was such an attractive
piece - but since almost everything died on it , I'd have been better
off waiting and buying it cured. I won't make that mistake again
until I get my own curing tank, bucket, spare skimmer, heater setup.

Just buy cured rock, and you won't have to worry about such things. Costs a little more, though.

No - I never seeded it - the LFS told me it wasn't necessary.... again
- starting to suspect the LFS advice....

Seeding your DSB is a good thing. And you can do it anytime you like. You can do it several
times, by getting samples from different people (assuming their tanks look healthy). LR will seed
your DSB, but seeding it in addition to the LR would be a little quicker and more effective, imho.

Would you scrape/scrub it off?

Yep, clean the glass you look through. I never clean the back wall, but I do clean the front and
sides. The stuff you release into the water will be eaten by stuff we can't see, as well as your
fish (which we *can* see). The reason I don't clean the back wall is so my snails definitely have
something to eat if the algae thins out too much. They need to eat something! The stuff you
knock off the front glass is pretty similar to zooplankton, so rather than thinking of it as yet
another cleaning task, think of it as your way of feeding the tank natural foods.

My "new" acclimation process will be much more gradual - the temp has
been raised to about 78-80 - this appears to have made my existing
livestock a lot happier... which makes me happier.

Great!

I'm going to hold off putting in anything new until next week - with
the birthday on Friday, I've got everyone clubbing together to get me
bits and pieces, plus a cleanup crew - I've selected exact items and
circulated the list - but no-one is supposed to have anything for me
until Tuesday next week (I'm leaving town for the weekend, so I don't
want to introduce anything before I leave).

You'll need some type of creature to keep your DSB stirred up *a little bit*, and a Fighting Conch
is a good choice. One conch needs 2 sq ft of surface area to dine upon, so look at your tank and
figure out just how much sand it actually reachable to a creature meandering around your
substrate. If you put too many in, they'll starve each other to death. I have one in my 55g that
does his thing, and quietly grows. It does submerge into my sand for 2 weeks at a time, but that
is normal. It eventually gets back to work.

Marc


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Marc Levenson wrote:

No, but I do snorket, and you are right about the zillions of bubbles.

I meant "snorkel" but you knew that, right? I just need to get SCUBA certified to solve that typo
problem once and for all.

Marc


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Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com