Vader's dead -maybe pond is sick!

I have had a fish just die, with water testing just fine.....I think it
happened from being driven to exhaustion with mating.

Don't use chemicals......especially that algaecide...green water will go
away....(at least I keep telling my sister that also). Let the plants do their
work.

Maureen

I had my first death today :-(

I tested the water only yesterday and I didn't find anything wrong, however
Judging by other post's (do dead fish float) its possible Vader died a
couple of days ago but has only just floated to the surface.

My pond turned Green about Two weeks ago (I expected this and intended to
just sit still until the Green vanished naturally -I've had Barley straw in
their for about Three weeks but I know it takes a month to start working)

Before the water turned Green my fish were really getting confident -they
were swimming in and out of the plants in the shallow end and always came up
to get their food (as long as I hid) and they were all happy as Larry.

As soon as it turned Green -I felt a huge depression come over the pond and
the fish stopped coming to the surface -I've only seen Two of them in a
week! -I had a feeling they were dying even though the tests say everything
is fine.

Do you think that because the water is Green they can't see the food and are
starving to death? (I put food in their every day and it is disappearing but
maybe one particular fish stays near the surface and eats it all and the
other fish never know it was there -I tried staying to see who's eating it
but no-one will come up while I'm there.

The other day I noticed a huge underwater disturbance and stared at it for
ages trying to work out what was causing it -its hundreds of air bubbles
they seem to be causing a swell of some kind under the surface.When I first
put my fish in, everytime I went near them they hid under the pump and they
looked all squashed and uncomfortable so after speaking to the guy at the
pond shop he got about 20 oxygenators tied then together and when I got home
I weighted them with a rock and put them in the centre of the pond for them
to hid in -they loved it as soon it as soon as they saw it.
Now of course it has grown and seems to be creating lots of oxygen -is it
possible to have too much O2 in a pond?

My pond is 1000 litres and has a waterfall at one end, 6 small clumps of
oxygenators scattered around the sides and on shelves, the huge clump in the
middle, a large waterlilly with about 12 pads at the opposite end from the
waterfall, 7 marginals on the shelves and 6 floating plants which are
multiplying faster than rabbits.

Can anyone spot something stupid that I've done? I wanted to never use
chemicals but I'm now considering using an Algaecide to clear the water just
so I can see if the rest of the fish are suffering at the bottom -its really
worrying not to be able to see them.

I never expected the water to get so Green -just a Green colour -I have a
filter which has two sponges inside it which I expected to filter the Algae
out.

Any ideas please? (I know the Algaecide will cause a lot of dead Algae for
new Algae to eat and trap me in a vicious circle but do you think it's worth
doing it once just to make sure the fish aren't suffering?)

The dead fish looked in perfect condition by the way -no signs of sickness
maybe the Green water has worried it to death because it could not see the
sun anymore?

Help please,
Jay

Hi Jay,
I feel for you. I know what you mean about fish just dying. I had a
beautiful tri-color kio turn up dead this past week. Only about 5
inches long. I think he may have been killed by some of the hail we
have been having here in the Colorado Springs area. Marble sized this
past week. At other times I would just find a fish floating. No
explanation for it. Just dead. All the other fish would be animated,
hungry, and seemingly in perfect health.

The green water will eventually go away. I am on my second or third
cycle of greenish water this season. I know the temptation to medicate
and you are correct that it becomes a vicious cycle. I have used
Pond-Zyme to jump start my bacteria and Kio-Zyme. Have not used the Koi
Zyme for a very long time and all the fish seem to be thriving.
Give it a bit more time. I am at the point where I am just waiting for
next year to roll around when I can finally divide my lilies, put in a
veggie filter (might even do this this week just to see what happens
between now and October - when we start shutting our ponds down,) and
give "natures way" a chance.
Green will go away - eventually. You might want to cut back on the
feeding a bit; maybe every other day and don't double on the food on
feeding days, to make up for the missed days! :-) You should start
seeing an improvement in a couple of weeks. Keep the faith and
patience. :-)

W. Dale

Jason Garner wrote:

I had my first death today :-(

I tested the water only yesterday and I didn't find anything wrong, however
Judging by other post's (do dead fish float) its possible Vader died a
couple of days ago but has only just floated to the surface.

My pond turned Green about Two weeks ago (I expected this and intended to
just sit still until the Green vanished naturally -I've had Barley straw in
their for about Three weeks but I know it takes a month to start working)

Before the water turned Green my fish were really getting confident -they
were swimming in and out of the plants in the shallow end and always came up
to get their food (as long as I hid) and they were all happy as Larry.

As soon as it turned Green -I felt a huge depression come over the pond and
the fish stopped coming to the surface -I've only seen Two of them in a
week! -I had a feeling they were dying even though the tests say everything
is fine.

Do you think that because the water is Green they can't see the food and are
starving to death? (I put food in their every day and it is disappearing but
maybe one particular fish stays near the surface and eats it all and the
other fish never know it was there -I tried staying to see who's eating it
but no-one will come up while I'm there.

The other day I noticed a huge underwater disturbance and stared at it for
ages trying to work out what was causing it -its hundreds of air bubbles
they seem to be causing a swell of some kind under the surface.When I first
put my fish in, everytime I went near them they hid under the pump and they
looked all squashed and uncomfortable so after speaking to the guy at the
pond shop he got about 20 oxygenators tied then together and when I got home
I weighted them with a rock and put them in the centre of the pond for them
to hid in -they loved it as soon it as soon as they saw it.
Now of course it has grown and seems to be creating lots of oxygen -is it
possible to have too much O2 in a pond?

My pond is 1000 litres and has a waterfall at one end, 6 small clumps of
oxygenators scattered around the sides and on shelves, the huge clump in the
middle, a large waterlilly with about 12 pads at the opposite end from the
waterfall, 7 marginals on the shelves and 6 floating plants which are
multiplying faster than rabbits.

Can anyone spot something stupid that I've done? I wanted to never use
chemicals but I'm now considering using an Algaecide to clear the water just
so I can see if the rest of the fish are suffering at the bottom -its really
worrying not to be able to see them.

I never expected the water to get so Green -just a Green colour -I have a
filter which has two sponges inside it which I expected to filter the Algae
out.

Any ideas please? (I know the Algaecide will cause a lot of dead Algae for
new Algae to eat and trap me in a vicious circle but do you think it's worth
doing it once just to make sure the fish aren't suffering?)

The dead fish looked in perfect condition by the way -no signs of sickness
maybe the Green water has worried it to death because it could not see the
sun anymore?

Help please,
Jay

A couple things -

Can you post your exact water test readings? The water experts will be able to
help you with some of the nuances of the readings.
And maybe some more history of Vader. What kind of fish is he, how long has he
been in the pond, how old is the pond, how many gallons, what did he look like
when discovered... for the fish health folks.

Me, I keep the algae primer. ;-) So if you haven't seen it yet I'll drop it in
here for you ---


ALGAE PRIMER
~ Nutrients for all forms of algae are sun, new water, fish waste, fertilized
run off, rotting plants, blown in dirt.
~ New ponds and spring ponds need time for plants to get established, algae is
quicker at getting going.
The following is a collection of algae suggestions from many rec.ponders:
~ add plants, of any kind, in the pond. Especially underwater plants. Note -
since all plants consume oxygen at night make sure your pond has a waterfall,
fountain, spitter or bubbler to add oxygen during the hours of darkness.
~ or build a veggie filter* see below (one of the best and prettiest way to
clear a pond)
~ Shade is good - provided by lily pads, floating plants or artificial shade
for part of the day.
~ LOW fish stocking (good rule of thumb for recreational ponders is 20 gallons
per goldfish, 100 per koi after starting with 1,000 gallons) and *not*
overfeeding the fish. Too many fish and too much feeding is probably
responsible for most pea soup water, followed closely by too much decaying
plant matter, sludge and overall gunk in the water
~ clean up dead plant matter and screen for falling leaves in the fall. Clean
out pond once a year.
~ building ponds with bottom drains and skimmers.
~ do not use algaecides, they only make lots of suddenly dead algae and that
will feed the next algae bloom.
~ do not use products to dye to the water...
~ do not worry about algae that grows on things (substrate algae) this is good
for a pond
~ gently remove string algae
or read http://www.sfbakc.org/koienews/clayvsclay.html
or some rec.ponders like String Algae Buster
~ water movement and occasional water changes of 10%
~ add a sludge consumer, concentrated bacteria.
some rec.ponders use http://www.united-tech.com/m-aq4u-toc.html
~ Check your pH, too high, over 8.8, or too low, under 6.4, and most higher
plant forms can't take up the nutrients.
~ UV lights work on suspended algae (green water) - does cost some $$
~ adding a combination mechanical and biological filter to screen gunk, dead
algae and convert fishy ammonia waste for fish health.
~ some rec.ponders like barley straw
http://www.aquabotanic.com/barleyarticle.html
~ patience, more patience, remember to be patient and time ;-)
~ personally, in my experience, I can vouch for few fish, a plant filter and
patience

*Plant filter ~ running the pond's water through plants
- as easy as floating water hyacinth in top of a stock tank and planting
watercress in your waterfall (my method ;-)
or
Ingrid's post on plant filters:
"The essence of a plant filter is a water proof container with the water from
the pond
being pumped in one end flowing thru the roots of various plants and flowing
back
into the pond at the other end.
It needs to be long enough that solids settle to the bottom OR have filter
material
that will slow or hold the solids (and get rinsed out periodically).
It needs plants of different kinds to maximize removal of all wastes.
it needs sufficient amount of plants to remove in one day all the wastes
produced by
the fish load in one day. It needs plants with extensive roots and/or plants
that get big so they used up more
nutrients. It needs to be only 8-12" deep so it doesn't go anaerobic."
or go he
http://www.iheartmypond.com/Design/D...rs/default.asp


kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

On 08 Aug 2004 15:07:31 GMT, EROSPAM (Ka30P) wrote:

Can you post your exact water test readings? The water experts will be able to
help you with some of the nuances of the readings.

Yes, in fact, below is the Sick Fish form to fill out.

When water is green something isn't right. Sometime it is minor, but
sometimes it is sinister. Stop tossing in the food, your fish won't starve.
I put 7 big fantail goldfish in my lilypond for the summer and never feed
them, they just grow bigger and have babies. ~ jan

Sick Fish or Sick Pond Form

Please describe your problem, including fish characteristics, like;
whirling, flashing, gasping at surface, wounds, etc.:

Pond Size in Gallons? (litres*.26=US Gallons):

Water Source (Well, Irrigation, City?)
If City how is water treated?: =

Time in Operation?
(How old is the pond/water?):

Liner type? (EPDM,PVC,RUBBER,Cement/Concrete etc):

Fish Population?
Type? Size? QTY, Time in Pond:

Food? Type and Frequency of feedings.:

Pump Type, IN/OUT of pond, GPH etc
(Describe your filtration system as well as possible):

Prefilter media type? Last cleaned?:

Filter is BIO or Mechanical? Last cleaned? How?:

Carbon added? How much? When last changed?:

Aeration? Waterfalls? Bubblers?
Venturies?:

Water Temp?

pH?:

KH?

Ammonia (ppm or mg/l):

Nitrite (ppm or mg/l):

Nitrate (ppm or mg/l):

Water Color, cloudiness, odor?:

Water changes? (% of pond volume and how often):

Additives used (water conditioners etc):

Tests done by self or another?:

Weather (what's it been like lately?):

Medications used?:

What Zone or Country of residence?:

~ jan
~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

breeders of fish make green water for their fry. green water is actually healthier
than gin clear water when a pond is first filled. fish can go for a month without
food, but in green water they got a lot to eat.
you have a 250 gallon pond with how many fish?
what is on the bottom of this pond? it sounds like there might have been some
anaerobic fermentation going on and a release of hydrogen sulfide.
what is the temperature of your water? all those plants and algae are making oxygen
during the day, but using it up at night. it doesnt sound like you have supplemental
oxygenation in the pond. this could result in the death of the largest fish from
lack of oxygen. no, not possible to have too much oxygen
INgrid



"Jason Garner" wrote:
Do you think that because the water is Green they can't see the food and are
starving to death?
The other day I noticed a huge underwater disturbance and stared at it for
ages trying to work out what was causing it -its hundreds of air bubbles
they seem to be causing a swell of some kind under the surface.When I first
put my fish in, everytime I went near them they hid under the pump and they
looked all squashed and uncomfortable so after speaking to the guy at the
pond shop he got about 20 oxygenators tied then together and when I got home
I weighted them with a rock and put them in the centre of the pond for them
to hid in -they loved it as soon it as soon as they saw it.
Now of course it has grown and seems to be creating lots of oxygen -is it
possible to have too much O2 in a pond?

My pond is 1000 litres and has a waterfall at one end, 6 small clumps of
oxygenators scattered around the sides and on shelves, the huge clump in the
middle, a large waterlilly with about 12 pads at the opposite end from the
waterfall, 7 marginals on the shelves and 6 floating plants which are
multiplying faster than rabbits.

The dead fish looked in perfect condition by the way -no signs of sickness
maybe the Green water has worried it to death because it could not see the
sun anymore?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Hi Ingrid,

I have 6 fish left (they are only babies), on the bottom (its a preformed
pond) is the pump and the large clump of Oxygenators and also 4 small clumps
of oxygenators, one in each corner. The rest of the plants are on ledges.

The temperature of the water on Saturday was about 70 degrees. the sun only
shines on the pond from about 14:00-19:00 approximately.

I was under the illusion that Oxygenators only made Oxygen and didn't
consume it and in the posts where people talk about gasping fish that was
because they didn't have Oxygenators in their ponds.

Even if the plants are using the oxygen at night I still have my waterfall
which runs 24hrs a day.

Sorry Kathy and Jan -I did read your posts but your questions were a bit too
technical for me to answer -I did find your tips very useful though and did
not feed the fish at all today.

Jay


wrote in message
...
breeders of fish make green water for their fry. green water is actually
healthier
than gin clear water when a pond is first filled. fish can go for a month
without
food, but in green water they got a lot to eat.
you have a 250 gallon pond with how many fish?
what is on the bottom of this pond? it sounds like there might have been
some
anaerobic fermentation going on and a release of hydrogen sulfide.
what is the temperature of your water? all those plants and algae are
making oxygen
during the day, but using it up at night. it doesnt sound like you have
supplemental
oxygenation in the pond. this could result in the death of the largest
fish from
lack of oxygen. no, not possible to have too much oxygen
INgrid



"Jason Garner" wrote:
Do you think that because the water is Green they can't see the food and
are
starving to death?
The other day I noticed a huge underwater disturbance and stared at it
for
ages trying to work out what was causing it -its hundreds of air bubbles
they seem to be causing a swell of some kind under the surface.When I
first
put my fish in, everytime I went near them they hid under the pump and
they
looked all squashed and uncomfortable so after speaking to the guy at the
pond shop he got about 20 oxygenators tied then together and when I got
home
I weighted them with a rock and put them in the centre of the pond for
them
to hid in -they loved it as soon it as soon as they saw it.
Now of course it has grown and seems to be creating lots of oxygen -is it
possible to have too much O2 in a pond?

My pond is 1000 litres and has a waterfall at one end, 6 small clumps of
oxygenators scattered around the sides and on shelves, the huge clump in
the
middle, a large waterlilly with about 12 pads at the opposite end from
the
waterfall, 7 marginals on the shelves and 6 floating plants which are
multiplying faster than rabbits.

The dead fish looked in perfect condition by the way -no signs of
sickness
maybe the Green water has worried it to death because it could not see
the
sun anymore?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Sorry Kathy and Jan -I did read your posts but your questions were a bit too
technical for me to answer -I did find your tips very useful though and did
not feed the fish at all today.
Jay

Too technical? You could skip over those and just answer what you can. You
said your water quality levels were all fine, how do you know this if you
can't give us answers to what the readings are for: Ammonia, Nitrite, pH, &
KH? ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Hold the phone.
Too technical?

We need the exact water test readings because people will see just a bit of
ammonia showing and think, well, just a bit that's okay and any ammonia isn't
good.

Do you know if you have goldfish or koi? It makes a huge difference in the long
run.

How long has the fish pond been in the pond is important because if this is a
new fish he could have been sick when you put him in and the rest of your fish
are at risk. If he is a long time resident then there are other things to look
at. We need information because we can't just tell you anything from the fact
the fish is dead.

How old is the pond? If this is a brand new pond and you just put the fish in
they may have died from chlorine or chloramine poisoning. Also helps us know
how long you've been at this and where you are in the learning curve.

How many gallons. You could have overstocked this pond and your fish will
continue to die.

What did the dead fish look like. Well, what did he look like?
Scales sticking out, covered with white goop, hole in his side?
Anything?



kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

oxygenators make oxygen during the day, use the oxygen at night.. when pond water is
really warm it holds less oxygen and if there is an algae bloom it can use all the
oxygen up by morning the largest fish die first.
waterfalls rarely oxygenate well. it is falling and tumbling over rocks it might.
supplemental aeration is the best way to make sure there is enough oxygen.
Ingrid

"Jason Garner" wrote:
I was under the illusion that Oxygenators only made Oxygen and didn't
consume it and in the posts where people talk about gasping fish that was
because they didn't have Oxygenators in their ponds.

Even if the plants are using the oxygen at night I still have my waterfall
which runs 24hrs a day.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.