Concrete vs. Liner for koi ponds

The reason I add the 1000/100 rule of thumb to the algae primer is to counter
all the articles I read in popular magazines. Most of them go along the line of
'dig the pond, line the pond, add living jewels, the koi' and that's it!!!
Nothing about filtering, testing the water, a healthy balance, room to grow.
Nada. Drives me nuts. I figure if we (rec.ponds) err on the side of caution a
lot more koi will have half a chance of surviving the ponding fad.


kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:12:23 -0400, "Janet"
wrote:

So D, are you actually going to tell someone that has come to love their
wetpets that are now 24" or 30" long that they now have to get rid of them?
I seriously think not. What are you going to do with them? With little known
about KHV not many (if any at all) would be willing to take them off your
hands, let alone pay for them. You can add to the mix the number of
parasites, bacteria and diseases that we do know about with koi and
basically you are going to be SOL. We're not talking about 6" or even 12"
goldfish here... we're talking about pond pigs that should, in proper
conditions grown to be 30" or even 36" long! It's really not hard to get the
water volumes needed to keep koi healthy, it means digging deeper. Here in
zone 6b it's not recommended to even think about keeping koi unless you dig
5.5' to 6' deep. Koi don't do well in water below 40 degrees...
Janet in sunny Niagara Falls

And here in sunny Phoenix, three foot deep water is just fine.

PlainBill
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression, for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.
-Thomas Paine

Hmm, not to question your 'rule', but it would indicate SIX fish. And
I'm sure the 'rule' takes into account the size of the fish.

Hmmm, a 25,000 gallon pond would be 50' X 20' x 3 ' deep. No, I
wouldn't want to try that in concrete - or my back yard. Right off
hand I'd say that's larger than the koi pond at the National Arboretum

PlainBill

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:59:37 -0400, "Janet"
wrote:

Uhmm... PlainBill..... a 1500 gallon koi pond is only big enough to keep
about 4 koi if one follows the generally accepted rule of 1000 gallons for
the first koi and then 100 additional gallons per fish... I know folks with
25,000 gallons and are thinking of going bigger yet. )
Janet in sunny Niagara Falls

He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression, for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.
-Thomas Paine

(Michael Capone) wrote in message . com...
Hi Folks,

Been doing a lot of reading lately on the concrete vs. 45-mil liner
issue when setting up a fish pond. I'd like to ask the question in a
slightly different way:

Assume that money is no object (for the moment, at least; I'm sure
I'll come to my senses soon...) Also, assume that I don't have to set
it up myself (I have a competent fish pond installer who can go either
route, and is at this very moment sitting around waiting for me to
make up my mind on which direction to go). Given those two criteria,
I'd like to know, which pond bottom is best in the long run? Since
ease of installation is not a concern, I'd like to hear from people
who have had to live with one or the other for some time. Is
maintenance easier on one or the other? Is one "prettier" than the
other (highly subjective, I know). Does algae grow on concrete and
not come off?

I should mention that I live near San Jose, CA; earthquakes can
happen, although I'm not sure how big a deal this is. I don't get the
extreme temperatures, though (freezing nights are relatively rare,
though it can get up to 100 F on occasion). There are no tree roots
anywhere nearby that I have to worry about.

So, thoughts? Thanks in advance for any input. I've been tearing my
hair out over this crazy issue. Thanks!

Michael
Hi Brian,Just had a 15 x 20 x 3 pond built in my yard.Dig hole then
sub liner then 45 mil liner then large rocks with sub liner under then
1 1/2" of portland cement with forterier and renforcing fiber mix in a
colorant and it loooks gr8.lots of large rocks see my pictures

(Michael Capone) wrote in message . com...
Hi Folks,

Been doing a lot of reading lately on the concrete vs. 45-mil liner
issue when setting up a fish pond. I'd like to ask the question in a
slightly different way:

Assume that money is no object (for the moment, at least; I'm sure
I'll come to my senses soon...) Also, assume that I don't have to set
it up myself (I have a competent fish pond installer who can go either
route, and is at this very moment sitting around waiting for me to
make up my mind on which direction to go). Given those two criteria,
I'd like to know, which pond bottom is best in the long run? Since
ease of installation is not a concern, I'd like to hear from people
who have had to live with one or the other for some time. Is
maintenance easier on one or the other? Is one "prettier" than the
other (highly subjective, I know). Does algae grow on concrete and
not come off?

I should mention that I live near San Jose, CA; earthquakes can
happen, although I'm not sure how big a deal this is. I don't get the
extreme temperatures, though (freezing nights are relatively rare,
though it can get up to 100 F on occasion). There are no tree roots
anywhere nearby that I have to worry about.

So, thoughts? Thanks in advance for any input. I've been tearing my
hair out over this crazy issue. Thanks!

hi Michael
I just help build a 15 x 20 x 3 foot pond in my yard with liner and
concrete.
dug hole added sud liner then 45 mil liner then sub liner under large
rocks with 1 tom 1 /2 inch of portland cement with foritfier and
reenforcing fiber and some colorant very nice look,email me for
pictures

Benefit of concrete is that the sides can be vertical without caving in,
which makes for a more predator safe pond. Downside to concrete, not
readily removed if you want to sell the house or get out of ponding, and if
not properly cured or coated, adds calcium hydroxide to the pond raising the
general hardness and pH. For a proper koi pond, depth is the key, and those
that I know that are the most knowledgable, have ponds 8 to 12 feet deep.
That would require concrete for stability. My ponds are liner ponds and the
deepest is only 3 1/2 feet deep, so I can still get in and do maintenance.

Whichever means of construction, be sure to include bottom drains, skimmers
and a filter rated at 2 to 4 times the size of the pond. My ponds have
about 4 times the filtration according to manufacturers recommendations, but
they don't have the number and size of fish built into their formulas.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"Michael Capone" wrote in message
om...
Hi Folks,

Been doing a lot of reading lately on the concrete vs. 45-mil liner
issue when setting up a fish pond. I'd like to ask the question in a
slightly different way:

Assume that money is no object (for the moment, at least; I'm sure
I'll come to my senses soon...) Also, assume that I don't have to set
it up myself (I have a competent fish pond installer who can go either
route, and is at this very moment sitting around waiting for me to
make up my mind on which direction to go). Given those two criteria,
I'd like to know, which pond bottom is best in the long run? Since
ease of installation is not a concern, I'd like to hear from people
who have had to live with one or the other for some time. Is
maintenance easier on one or the other? Is one "prettier" than the
other (highly subjective, I know). Does algae grow on concrete and
not come off?

I should mention that I live near San Jose, CA; earthquakes can
happen, although I'm not sure how big a deal this is. I don't get the
extreme temperatures, though (freezing nights are relatively rare,
though it can get up to 100 F on occasion). There are no tree roots
anywhere nearby that I have to worry about.

So, thoughts? Thanks in advance for any input. I've been tearing my
hair out over this crazy issue. Thanks!

Michael