we tried someting new

Janet wrote:

Ann there has been alot of talk about spray in bed liners on most of the
major koi forums. The spec sheets have been posted and the manufacturers
don't recommend it and explicitly say it's not fish safe. On the other
hand there is now a spray in pond liner that is fish safe. Do a google for
GatorGuard and DragonKote. All the info is there.. )

Note, there is an important difference between "not fish safe" and "unsafe
for fish". The former merely means that the manufacturer has no interest
in testing and certifying that the product is fish safe. Especially since
they can create a "certified" product that they can sell at a premium.

The old-timers here will remember that, at the time I started into ponding,
sometime in the mid-90s, one of the hottest debates was over the use of
pond-safe EPDM and EPDM roofing liner. Firestone, the major manufacturer
of both, insisted that the roofing liner was not fish-safe, but many people
used it without trouble. I know of one DIY study that claimed it killed
test fish, but I also know of dozens of respected ponders who never had a
problem.

What it really comes down to, is if you are starting off with a water garden
with a few cheap fish, don't waste your money. If you're starting a koi
pond, and planning to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on fish,
don't _risk_ your money.

otoh, either kind of spray-in bed liner seems like a ridiculously expensive
way to build a pond.
--
derek

Derek,
yeah, I remember the big epdm debate. I wasn't telling people they
should go put their fish in a tank with the spray in liner. I was just
saying that the few fish we have in ours, which we are watching very
closely, seem to be doing fine.
As for the money, DH absolutely will not ever buy a flexible liner for a
pond if he can help it. He's convinced that every one of them will puncture
eventually. I can tell him anything I want to, and quote hundreds of
ponders who use them and it just P---s him off. It doesn't help that our
big pond with the permalon liner has a hole in it, that has defied detection
with all the tried and true methods, and as far as we know, nothing
different happened between the day before we started losing water, and the
day that we knew we had a leak. The bad thing is that we wanted a decent
sized pond, and they are very hard to come by in a rigid form. By using a
coated metal tank, he feels like he is buying longevity. Since he is the
major hole-digger around here, I can't just blow off his desires of how to
do things. I'm just happy that I'm finally getting my bog filter.


"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Janet wrote:

Ann there has been alot of talk about spray in bed liners on most of the
major koi forums. The spec sheets have been posted and the manufacturers
don't recommend it and explicitly say it's not fish safe. On the other
hand there is now a spray in pond liner that is fish safe. Do a google
for
GatorGuard and DragonKote. All the info is there.. )

Note, there is an important difference between "not fish safe" and "unsafe
for fish". The former merely means that the manufacturer has no interest
in testing and certifying that the product is fish safe. Especially since
they can create a "certified" product that they can sell at a premium.

The old-timers here will remember that, at the time I started into
ponding,
sometime in the mid-90s, one of the hottest debates was over the use of
pond-safe EPDM and EPDM roofing liner. Firestone, the major manufacturer
of both, insisted that the roofing liner was not fish-safe, but many
people
used it without trouble. I know of one DIY study that claimed it killed
test fish, but I also know of dozens of respected ponders who never had a
problem.

What it really comes down to, is if you are starting off with a water
garden
with a few cheap fish, don't waste your money. If you're starting a koi
pond, and planning to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on fish,
don't _risk_ your money.

otoh, either kind of spray-in bed liner seems like a ridiculously
expensive
way to build a pond.
--
derek

--

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Janet wrote:

Ann there has been alot of talk about spray in bed liners on most of the
major koi forums. The spec sheets have been posted and the manufacturers
don't recommend it and explicitly say it's not fish safe. On the other
hand there is now a spray in pond liner that is fish safe. Do a google
for
GatorGuard and DragonKote. All the info is there.. )

Note, there is an important difference between "not fish safe" and "unsafe
for fish". The former merely means that the manufacturer has no interest
in testing and certifying that the product is fish safe. Especially since
they can create a "certified" product that they can sell at a premium.

The old-timers here will remember that, at the time I started into
ponding,
sometime in the mid-90s, one of the hottest debates was over the use of
pond-safe EPDM and EPDM roofing liner. Firestone, the major manufacturer
of both, insisted that the roofing liner was not fish-safe, but many
people
used it without trouble. I know of one DIY study that claimed it killed
test fish, but I also know of dozens of respected ponders who never had a
problem.

What it really comes down to, is if you are starting off with a water
garden
with a few cheap fish, don't waste your money. If you're starting a koi
pond, and planning to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on fish,
don't _risk_ your money.

otoh, either kind of spray-in bed liner seems like a ridiculously
expensive
way to build a pond.
--
derek

Derek that is very true to a certain extent but not the case with the spray
products, aka polyurea. The original chemists who worked on polyurea
applications are dead set against using it near fish. They were approached
to develop a product that can be used in ponds safely. It's chemically very
different from the bed liner products. You're right Derek, the spray in
products are not for everyone, but for those with poor soil conditions,
ground water issues, etc it's one of the most economical ways to go.
Especially when one takes into consideration the cost of building a pond in
those types of conditions. The other major plus is the warranty, 20 or 25
years even with exposure to UV. Now add in that expansion is not a problem,
it can be sprayed onto itself, and there are definite advantages. The only
possible drawback at this point is that it's not been put to the test in a
cold climate. We keep trying to talk a certified installer into coming north
and doing a test pond. The product has been tested under labratory settings
for cold, but no real life stuff..
Janet in cloudy Niagara Falls

It may be worthwhile to push for a lightweight flex liner dropped inside the
stock tank. That wouldn't be the same as having one in the ground, as far
as the likelihood of a puncture is concerned. If it did puncture, we
wouldn't lose any water from it. Also, I think a pinhole big enough to
really drain a pond wouldn't be big enough to allow any nasty compounds to
mix with the pond water. I will do a search on polyurea. Thanks for the
heads up.
"Janet" wrote in message
news


--

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Janet wrote:

Ann there has been alot of talk about spray in bed liners on most of
the
major koi forums. The spec sheets have been posted and the
manufacturers
don't recommend it and explicitly say it's not fish safe. On the other
hand there is now a spray in pond liner that is fish safe. Do a google
for
GatorGuard and DragonKote. All the info is there.. )

Note, there is an important difference between "not fish safe" and
"unsafe
for fish". The former merely means that the manufacturer has no
interest
in testing and certifying that the product is fish safe. Especially
since
they can create a "certified" product that they can sell at a premium.

The old-timers here will remember that, at the time I started into
ponding,
sometime in the mid-90s, one of the hottest debates was over the use of
pond-safe EPDM and EPDM roofing liner. Firestone, the major
manufacturer
of both, insisted that the roofing liner was not fish-safe, but many
people
used it without trouble. I know of one DIY study that claimed it killed
test fish, but I also know of dozens of respected ponders who never had
a
problem.

What it really comes down to, is if you are starting off with a water
garden
with a few cheap fish, don't waste your money. If you're starting a koi
pond, and planning to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on
fish,
don't _risk_ your money.

otoh, either kind of spray-in bed liner seems like a ridiculously
expensive
way to build a pond.
--
derek

Derek that is very true to a certain extent but not the case with the
spray
products, aka polyurea. The original chemists who worked on polyurea
applications are dead set against using it near fish. They were approached
to develop a product that can be used in ponds safely. It's chemically
very
different from the bed liner products. You're right Derek, the spray in
products are not for everyone, but for those with poor soil conditions,
ground water issues, etc it's one of the most economical ways to go.
Especially when one takes into consideration the cost of building a pond
in
those types of conditions. The other major plus is the warranty, 20 or 25
years even with exposure to UV. Now add in that expansion is not a
problem,
it can be sprayed onto itself, and there are definite advantages. The
only
possible drawback at this point is that it's not been put to the test in a
cold climate. We keep trying to talk a certified installer into coming
north
and doing a test pond. The product has been tested under labratory
settings
for cold, but no real life stuff..
Janet in cloudy Niagara Falls

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
snip
The old-timers here will remember that, at the time I started into
ponding,
sometime in the mid-90s, one of the hottest debates was over the use of
pond-safe EPDM and EPDM roofing liner. Firestone, the major manufacturer
of both, insisted that the roofing liner was not fish-safe, but many
people
used it without trouble. I know of one DIY study that claimed it killed
test fish, but I also know of dozens of respected ponders who never had a
problem.
snip

The key variable here is that in some areas, roofing liner can be treated
for fungus, mildew, etc. and those chemicals could be harmful to fish. My
EPDM was purchased from a pond store, and it says Firestone on it. So I
guess my area does not have these "mythical" chemicals.

BV.

Benign Vanilla wrote:


"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
snip
The old-timers here will remember that, at the time I started into
ponding,
sometime in the mid-90s, one of the hottest debates was over the use of
pond-safe EPDM and EPDM roofing liner. Firestone, the major manufacturer
of both, insisted that the roofing liner was not fish-safe, but many
people
used it without trouble. I know of one DIY study that claimed it killed
test fish, but I also know of dozens of respected ponders who never had a
problem.
snip

The key variable here is that in some areas, roofing liner can be treated
for fungus, mildew, etc. and those chemicals could be harmful to fish. My
EPDM was purchased from a pond store, and it says Firestone on it. So I
guess my area does not have these "mythical" chemicals.

That was part of the discussion, but while a number of _roofers_ claimed it
was treated with fungicides, nobody connected with Firestone ever said
that. So, yes, they seem to be mythical. But I still wouldn't risk a
hundred dollar koi in a pond made with roofing liner. The stuff you got
was almost certainly pond-grade, though. Firestone does sell pond-grade
epdm, and it doesn't come from the same supply as roofing-grade epdm - but
whether there's any chemical difference, nobody really knows.
--
derek

Firestone said themselves there is a difference in the "curing "process -
ergo not fish safe - this was posted a while back on this group - if you
want I will see if I can find the letter and repost it if you can't find it
and yes I know many people have used roofing epdm without a problem
Gale :~)

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Benign Vanilla wrote:


"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
snip
The old-timers here will remember that, at the time I started into
ponding,
sometime in the mid-90s, one of the hottest debates was over the use of
pond-safe EPDM and EPDM roofing liner. Firestone, the major
manufacturer
of both, insisted that the roofing liner was not fish-safe, but many
people
used it without trouble. I know of one DIY study that claimed it
killed
test fish, but I also know of dozens of respected ponders who never had
a
problem.
snip

The key variable here is that in some areas, roofing liner can be
treated
for fungus, mildew, etc. and those chemicals could be harmful to fish.
My
EPDM was purchased from a pond store, and it says Firestone on it. So I
guess my area does not have these "mythical" chemicals.

That was part of the discussion, but while a number of _roofers_ claimed
it
was treated with fungicides, nobody connected with Firestone ever said
that. So, yes, they seem to be mythical. But I still wouldn't risk a
hundred dollar koi in a pond made with roofing liner. The stuff you got
was almost certainly pond-grade, though. Firestone does sell pond-grade
epdm, and it doesn't come from the same supply as roofing-grade epdm - but
whether there's any chemical difference, nobody really knows.
--
derek

I remember someone else saying they witnessed rolls of Firestone epdm coming
from the same source and seeing some of it stamped, or labelled as being
pond-grade and the rest of it marked for roofing only.
"Gale Pearce" wrote in message
...
Firestone said themselves there is a difference in the "curing "process -
ergo not fish safe - this was posted a while back on this group - if you
want I will see if I can find the letter and repost it if you can't find
it
and yes I know many people have used roofing epdm without a problem
Gale :~)

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Benign Vanilla wrote:


"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
snip
The old-timers here will remember that, at the time I started into
ponding,
sometime in the mid-90s, one of the hottest debates was over the use
of
pond-safe EPDM and EPDM roofing liner. Firestone, the major
manufacturer
of both, insisted that the roofing liner was not fish-safe, but many
people
used it without trouble. I know of one DIY study that claimed it
killed
test fish, but I also know of dozens of respected ponders who never
had
a
problem.
snip

The key variable here is that in some areas, roofing liner can be
treated
for fungus, mildew, etc. and those chemicals could be harmful to fish.
My
EPDM was purchased from a pond store, and it says Firestone on it. So
I
guess my area does not have these "mythical" chemicals.

That was part of the discussion, but while a number of _roofers_ claimed
it
was treated with fungicides, nobody connected with Firestone ever said
that. So, yes, they seem to be mythical. But I still wouldn't risk a
hundred dollar koi in a pond made with roofing liner. The stuff you got
was almost certainly pond-grade, though. Firestone does sell pond-grade
epdm, and it doesn't come from the same supply as roofing-grade epdm -
but
whether there's any chemical difference, nobody really knows.
--
derek

the whole debate "evolved"... first there was the anti-fungus, then anti-bacterial,
then anti-algae, then curing. the fact is there has been no difference in the health
of fish in ponds made from roofing vs pond liner.
the number of people new to ponds who overstocked, didnt watch ammonia levels or made
other serious mistakes were evenly divided between ponds made of roof vs pond safe
epdm.
Ingrid


"Gale Pearce" wrote:
Firestone said themselves there is a difference in the "curing "process -
ergo not fish safe - this was posted a while back on this group - if you
want I will see if I can find the letter and repost it if you can't find it
and yes I know many people have used roofing epdm without a problem
Gale :~)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Just from a manufacturers standpoint the way they do things today is
that its probably the same product that is just packaged and marketed
a different way. Most manuf. today have virtually eliminated multiple
production lines to make similar products and have cut down to one
line that will handle all of the cut lines as well. Then packaging and
marketing is conducted topuch this one item out the door into the
market place and cover all the eliminated products as well. Just like
motor oil, The Tech2000 stuff is actually made by Penzoil, and is
Penzoil, thats just bottled in Wal Mart brand bottles labeld Tech2000
oil.........multitudes of products are handled this way. One product,
multiple labels. Saves manufacturing costs and inventory for the
makers and they can cover a more diverse field of applications and
keep the consumer in the dark with skepticism and uncertainty. Its
what makes the world go around and profits up!

If it worked in years past without any known problems why worry about
it now. Afterall if they can get 30 cents a foot for roofing stuff,
and know darn full well they can;'t get 50 cents a foot for it in the
roofing commnumity, but know with a different label on the same
identical product they can get the 50 cents a foot from ponders,
would you not also capitolize on that market area for the sake of a
different label and not have to run additonal production lines and
inventory? Yep, you sure would, its called being market / manuf. /
business savy!
Bottom line is we will never really know unless a Quality Control or
Firestone chemist defects from Firestone and lets the cat out of the
bag!



On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:14:35 GMT, wrote:

===the whole debate "evolved"... first there was the anti-fungus, then anti-bacterial,
===then anti-algae, then curing. the fact is there has been no difference in the health
===of fish in ponds made from roofing vs pond liner.
===the number of people new to ponds who overstocked, didnt watch ammonia levels or made
===other serious mistakes were evenly divided between ponds made of roof vs pond safe
===epdm.
===Ingrid
===
===
==="Gale Pearce" wrote:
===Firestone said themselves there is a difference in the "curing "process -
===ergo not fish safe - this was posted a while back on this group - if you
===want I will see if I can find the letter and repost it if you can't find it
===and yes I know many people have used roofing epdm without a problem
=== Gale :~)
===
===
===~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
===List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
===http://puregold.aquaria.net/
===www.drsolo.com
===Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
===~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
===Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
===compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
===endorsements or recommendations I make.

Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.