Help!.. Genocide, Julidochromis self destructus

90gal, aquaclear 500, cycled, 1 yr running with
small airstone with a small airpump.

3 p. Zebra 3"
2 Red Zebra 1"
1 yellow Lab 3"
2 featherfin catfish

10 Julidochromis transcriptus gombi.

Eventually the Julies multiplied and multiplied, at one point I had
almost 50 including about 12 babies.

I went on vacation, let someone take care of fish, when I came
back there were 3 or 4 julies lying dead on the bottom. Some
had been partially decomposed and were wrapped around the
filter intake, but filter was still flowing.

I immediately removed the dead ones, but ever since then 1 or 2
are dying every day for over a week now. I do 30% water changes
every 2 days, that didn't help a bit. I always age my water 24hours
with an airstone in a big 55gallon bucket. All the Julies keep dying,
there are only 5 left. Strangely enough none of the other fish are
dying, but they don't seem happy.

What is going on I've checked the water 3 times this week and keep
getting good numbers, here they are.

PH 7.8
Ammo 0.1ppm
NO2 0.1ppm
NO3 5ppm
GH 80ppm
KH 50ppm
temp 77

Could the dead cadavres cause the water to be poisoned but not
measureable on any of my testers?
Could the Ammo spike have happened already and as a result fish
die weeks later?
Are the Julies wealer fish or are they genetically weak from inbreeding?
None of the other fish are dying. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

....Kodiak

Sad story

Suggest you buy a new test kit - they go off quickly and take
your water to a decent LFS and get them to test it too

Smaller fish tend to be be effected first by bad water and those
julies are small ones aren't they 2" or less

Something was obviusly happening - for the fish to start dying
in the first place - one dead fish isn't good news but a filter
will cope with it especially a small fish - I once lost a load
of fish when the water company filled the supply with aluminium
to kill an algae problem theyy had in the resevoirs - 90% dead
within 3 days of the water change - you might want to ring them
and see if they have any news


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Kodiak wrote:
90gal, aquaclear 500, cycled, 1 yr running with
small airstone with a small airpump.
snip tank stock
I went on vacation, let someone take care of fish, when I came
back there were 3 or 4 julies lying dead on the bottom. Some
had been partially decomposed and were wrapped around the
filter intake, but filter was still flowing.
snip cleanup
PH 7.8
Ammo 0.1ppm
NO2 0.1ppm
NO3 5ppm
GH 80ppm
KH 50ppm
temp 77

These are not good numbers. You have both an ammonia and nitrite spike.
Your tank is cycling again. The excess ammonia is likely caused by the
dead fish having been left in the tank. Since you were on vacation at the
start of this, you have no idea how high the ammonia spike went
originally. That and/or the subsequent nitrite spike is likely what is
killing off the remaining fish. Various species have different tolerances
to the levels of ammonia and nitrite and fry typically are more
suspectible than adults. The best thing you can do right now is water
changes and filter maintenance (clean ONLY in dechlorinated tap water or a
bucket of tank water) to make sure there's nothing caught up in the filter
that's decomposing. Also, make sure you've found all the dead. Have you
taken apart the rockwork to find any other possibly hidden bodies? You can
also add a couple tablespoons of rock salt to help counteract the nitrite
poisoning. Getting an ammonia locking product for the ammonia spike is
also advised.

In the future, do not use someone to fishsit who is squeamish about
removing dead fish promptly. In fact, if at all possible, do not use
someone who has never had a fish tank. Find either someone in the local
aquarium society that you trust or hire a professional pet sitter who is
experienced with fish tanks (even a marine tank experienced professional
pet sitter is preferred to someone who knows nothing about aquariums).
These sorts of people will remove dead fish promptly and make sure all
filters are functioning properly. They'll also perhaps care enough to do a
head count to notice that fish are dying instead of just dumping food into
the tank.

I had an experience very similar to yours when I let my roommate petsit
while I was at a conference. She left the AC off during a 100F+ heat wave,
so my theory is that the large fish started dying off from low oxygen
levels. She left the dead fish in the tank and kept dumping the food for
them in so that when I came back 3 days later, everything was either dead
or dying from respiratory distress (gill damage from ammonia plus low
oxygen levels is pretty much a death sentence). Ammonia levels were off
the chart on the test kit. The only fish to survive my roommate's "pet
sitting" was Mr. Betta in his seperate betta bowl. She also didn't take
care of the cats in the apartment. So instead of spending $15 a day on a
professional for a few days, I lost over $200 worth of fish stock and came
back to extremely stinky cat boxes and multiple cats suffering heat
exhaustion. Now I always think back to that and hire a professional.

If less than 0.1 PPM is a nitrite spike, you must be a startling
fish keeper
I would sell my house and all my possessions to hit less than
0.1PPM with dead fish in the tank

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MrHappy wrote:
If less than 0.1 PPM is a nitrite spike, you must be a startling
fish keeper
I would sell my house and all my possessions to hit less than
0.1PPM with dead fish in the tank

You missed the point, wildly. Just because it was only 0,1ppm when he
measured it does not mean it was always only 0.1ppm. In fact, I would
wager it went well above that amount before the OP even got home. When
that whole tank of mine died off, I got 6ppm ammonia in under 3 days. This
was rather quickly (within 3 days) converted by the bacteria colonies
(remember the bacteria just has to grow to be sufficient for the ammonia,
so it happens much faster with a previously cycled tank than with a real
cycle where you start from almost nothing). The subsequent nitrite spike
was also converted into nitrates within a few days. And I removed all the
dead fish before there was any decomposition to the bodies, although the
food the sitter kept dumping in probably were a good part of the high
ammonia levels.

So, considering there was noticeable decomposition of the bodies in the
OP's tank, I would imagine the fish had been dead for several days by the
time he returned. Thus he would have missed measuring the magnitude of the
original ammonia and nitrite spikes. Just because he wasn't there to
observe it doesn't mean these spikes didn't cause damage that caused the
subsequent deaths. So, that was the point of my post. The fact that there
was any measurable ammonia and nitrite currently suggests there was a far
larger spike before he came home which could very well be the reason his
fish are still dying.

0.1ppm for Ammo and Nitrite was because my testers
bottom out there, i can't measure lower.

How long after a Ammo or Nitrite spike do you figure
fish will keep dying? 1.5 weeks now and fish are still
dyeing one by one, only the Julies though. And 1 other
casualty, one of the 2" blue Zebras got bloated and died

Yes i took apart all rockwork, picked off all the dead,
and only used 48hour airstone aged temperature matched
tapwater, with a bit of dechlorinator for water changes,
and I only use tankwater to clean filter wich i did as soon as
I arrived home.

I figure like u said, I got an ammo spike, then a Nitrite spike,
from the rotting cadavres, and by the time I got home, enough
time had elapsed for bacteria to build up. Either that or my water
is contaminated with Aluminum like u said or something else that
dosen't show on the testers but I think that's less likely.

I am so depressed now, almost all my Julies are dead, only 3 left.
Is it possible that the Julies were also weak because of all the
inbreeding? Maybe that's why none of the other fish are dyeing?

....Kodiak


"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
MrHappy wrote:
If less than 0.1 PPM is a nitrite spike, you must be a startling
fish keeper
I would sell my house and all my possessions to hit less than
0.1PPM with dead fish in the tank

You missed the point, wildly. Just because it was only 0,1ppm when he
measured it does not mean it was always only 0.1ppm. In fact, I would
wager it went well above that amount before the OP even got home. When
that whole tank of mine died off, I got 6ppm ammonia in under 3 days. This
was rather quickly (within 3 days) converted by the bacteria colonies
(remember the bacteria just has to grow to be sufficient for the ammonia,
so it happens much faster with a previously cycled tank than with a real
cycle where you start from almost nothing). The subsequent nitrite spike
was also converted into nitrates within a few days. And I removed all the
dead fish before there was any decomposition to the bodies, although the
food the sitter kept dumping in probably were a good part of the high
ammonia levels.

So, considering there was noticeable decomposition of the bodies in the
OP's tank, I would imagine the fish had been dead for several days by the
time he returned. Thus he would have missed measuring the magnitude of the
original ammonia and nitrite spikes. Just because he wasn't there to
observe it doesn't mean these spikes didn't cause damage that caused the
subsequent deaths. So, that was the point of my post. The fact that there
was any measurable ammonia and nitrite currently suggests there was a far
larger spike before he came home which could very well be the reason his
fish are still dying.

Kodiak wrote:
How long after a Ammo or Nitrite spike do you figure
fish will keep dying? 1.5 weeks now and fish are still
dyeing one by one, only the Julies though. And 1 other
casualty, one of the 2" blue Zebras got bloated and died

Well, it's all conjecture, but once the gills are damaged, they remain
damaged, so death could occur even after the ammonia spike has resolved.
The death of your second fish raises another possibility though. It could
be that the stress of the ammonia/nitrite spikes have rendered them
vulnerable to internal paracites. In some fish, this manifests as a
bloated stomach. In general, symptoms are white stringy feces, listless
and/or withdrawn behavior, lack of appetite and swollen abdomens. Have you
seen any of these symptoms, particularly the white stringy feces, in the
julies before they died?

To be really sure of what is killing them, one would need to do a necropsy
on the bodies with a microscope to examine the tissue. If you know of
biologists in your area, you might see if one is willing to do so.

I saw the strigy feces and swollen abdo but only on the Zebra that died.
Not on the Julies.
....Kodiak

"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
Kodiak wrote:
How long after a Ammo or Nitrite spike do you figure
fish will keep dying? 1.5 weeks now and fish are still
dyeing one by one, only the Julies though. And 1 other
casualty, one of the 2" blue Zebras got bloated and died

Well, it's all conjecture, but once the gills are damaged, they remain
damaged, so death could occur even after the ammonia spike has resolved.
The death of your second fish raises another possibility though. It could
be that the stress of the ammonia/nitrite spikes have rendered them
vulnerable to internal paracites. In some fish, this manifests as a
bloated stomach. In general, symptoms are white stringy feces, listless
and/or withdrawn behavior, lack of appetite and swollen abdomens. Have you
seen any of these symptoms, particularly the white stringy feces, in the
julies before they died?

To be really sure of what is killing them, one would need to do a necropsy
on the bodies with a microscope to examine the tissue. If you know of
biologists in your area, you might see if one is willing to do so.

I saw the strigy feces and swollen abdo but only on the Zebra that died.
Not on the Julies.
....Kodiak

--
....Kodiak
"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
Kodiak wrote:
How long after a Ammo or Nitrite spike do you figure
fish will keep dying? 1.5 weeks now and fish are still
dyeing one by one, only the Julies though. And 1 other
casualty, one of the 2" blue Zebras got bloated and died

Well, it's all conjecture, but once the gills are damaged, they remain
damaged, so death could occur even after the ammonia spike has resolved.
The death of your second fish raises another possibility though. It could
be that the stress of the ammonia/nitrite spikes have rendered them
vulnerable to internal paracites. In some fish, this manifests as a
bloated stomach. In general, symptoms are white stringy feces, listless
and/or withdrawn behavior, lack of appetite and swollen abdomens. Have you
seen any of these symptoms, particularly the white stringy feces, in the
julies before they died?

To be really sure of what is killing them, one would need to do a necropsy
on the bodies with a microscope to examine the tissue. If you know of
biologists in your area, you might see if one is willing to do so.

"Kodiak" wrote in message
...
90gal, aquaclear 500, cycled, 1 yr running with
small airstone with a small airpump.

3 p. Zebra 3"
2 Red Zebra 1"
1 yellow Lab 3"
2 featherfin catfish

10 Julidochromis transcriptus gombi.

Eventually the Julies multiplied and multiplied, at one point I had
almost 50 including about 12 babies.

I went on vacation, let someone take care of fish, when I came
back there were 3 or 4 julies lying dead on the bottom. Some
had been partially decomposed and were wrapped around the
filter intake, but filter was still flowing.

I immediately removed the dead ones, but ever since then 1 or 2
are dying every day for over a week now. I do 30% water changes
every 2 days, that didn't help a bit. I always age my water 24hours
with an airstone in a big 55gallon bucket. All the Julies keep dying,
there are only 5 left. Strangely enough none of the other fish are
dying, but they don't seem happy.

What is going on I've checked the water 3 times this week and keep
getting good numbers, here they are.

PH 7.8
Ammo 0.1ppm
NO2 0.1ppm
NO3 5ppm
GH 80ppm
KH 50ppm
temp 77

Could the dead cadavres cause the water to be poisoned but not
measureable on any of my testers?
Could the Ammo spike have happened already and as a result fish
die weeks later?
Are the Julies wealer fish or are they genetically weak from inbreeding?
None of the other fish are dying. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

...Kodiak



Are you sure it's the water?

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profile...es.php?id=1537

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/j_marlieri.php

I had a pair that were quite happy together until one started to get bigger
than the other, then the smaller one chased the larger one out of their rock
and eventually the outsider was killed off. I think it tried to come back
once too often and the dominant one killed it. It's a community tank, so
that may not have been the case, but the dominant julie was quite viscious
in it's attempts to expel the larger (possibly female). The above linked
article and some others I've read, would seem to bear this out.

The mbuna that died of bloat may have just been stressed and succombed to
some water change as has been posted. Genocide in my neighborhood would
certainly stress me out. It's also possible my problem was not enough
females and the male julie just got too frisky.

Good luck,
Paul