Sick fish

Kellbot wrote:

The proper dose is 1 cc of eugenol (clove oil) + 9 ccs vodka to one
gallon
of water.

I have a special, really cheap and cheesy bottle of vodka just for those
rare occasions...

"It's for medicinal reasons... Honest!"

-D
--
"One ought, every day at least, to hear a little song, read a good poem,
see a fine picture, and, if it were possible, to speak a few reasonable
words." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

In article ,
says...
In article ,
"Benign Vanilla" wrote:

There are, http://www.unmc.edu/Education/Animal/guide/appenG8.html.


Great link!
Thank you!

I quote from http://www.fda.gov/cvm/guidance/guide150.pdf
"...neither clove oil nor any individual active ingredient of
clove oil (eugenol, isoeugenol, or methyleugenol) is approved
for use for the anesthesia of fish."

That's from the FDA/CVM -- Center for Veterinary Medicine.
The document mentioned earlier from UNMC also doesn't list
eugenol or clove oil.

Now, I strongly suspect this actually means as a treatment
for animals being raised as human foods.

But I still maintain that the best way is to put them in
a tupperware or ziplock container full of water, put it
in the freezer, shut the door, and don't look until it's
a solid block. Whether they feel pain or not is less important
than how _I_ feel if I see them struggle or if I am forced to
bash them with a hammer.

Gunther

In article , "~ Windsong ~" P@P
wrote:

"Katra" wrote in message
...
In article , "~ Windsong ~" P@P
wrote:

"Katra" wrote in message
...
==============
15 gallons per fish... Wow.

What kind of circulation setup do you use in the pools, or is one
necessary in a pool with that much surface area for oxygen diffusion?

## The GF do fine in those without circulation but need more cleaning
because of the plants. But then I only have 6 to 8 per pool. And we're
talking about good size fish here. Plants themselves make "dirt" in the
water. I use cheap powerheads from Foster & Smith. I make gravel
filters
with them (cheap gravel from Lowe's) in a free empty flower pot.
Sometimes
I only use cheap plastic window screening. That works as well as the
gravel
to trap particles. the gravel "pots" are probably better for biological
filtration. But then the plants themselves are surely covered with good
bacteria. The powerhead pumps are quite enough circulation because of
the
huge air-water interface for 10 GF. I clean these pools out about
once a
year in any case.

Sounds wonderful...

Do you have any jpegs?
===================
Visit my website and click on ponds. I think there is at least one of the
pools there.

There are several pictures... :-)
Very nice!

I know this is probably a stupid question, but what is the difference
between a koi and a goldfish, and how much are baby koi worth?
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

In article , "~ Windsong ~" P@P
wrote:

"Katra" wrote in message
...
In article , "~ Windsong ~" P@P
wrote:

"Katra" wrote in message
...
I have little concern for ice here...
My biggest problem is the prevelance of blue and green herons.

## E We have to net our ponds or we would lose every fish we have. We
have
no choice. We not only have herons but snapper turtles, large water
snakes
and bullfrogs as big as your head.

Ooh, mail me some of those bullfrogs! :-)
They sound delicious! lol
Ok, so I'm a carnivoire...

## Me too, but frogs don't appeal to me as food.

Never had frog legs?


I can get bird netting from the local home center (and they also carry
pond supplies) if it ever gets to be a problem.

No snappers and bullfrogs are not native, but we do have water snakes
since we live near the river.

## And those water snakes love fresh fish. :-( I found the best price on
nets at ACE Hardware.

There is one near here, but Lowe's also has both pond and gardening
supplies, including both deer and bird netting. Deer netting comes in
larger lengths and widths for a cheaper price and is almost identical.
I'll probably look at that first.


I plan to build mine under a tree, and just keep a leaf skimmer handy.
That will hopefully prevent herons from spotting it on flyovers.

#3 Not true! If herons are in your area you will need to net your ponds
or
kiddy pools.

Ok. That is what the local fish hatchery does.
There are also quite a few egrets, but they are not really pond
snatchers like the herons are.

## Once herons know your pond is there you cannot get rid of them. Shooting
them is illegal so nets are the only answer.

I understand... I know they are protected but I'll bet you are tempted
sometimes. ;-) It's like, with all the lakes and rivers in this area,
why are you bothering my pond???



Might also keep some Owl decoys handy.

# Tried them and the fake snakes - they're worthless.

Hmmmm... They've worked to keep doves out of the garden.

## We have few doves here and they're not a problem. We used the fake owls
and snakes in hopes of discouraging the herons and King Fishers.

I've never seen a kingfisher in this area.
But that does not mean they are not here.


but then, doves are not herons. ;-)

I'm glad I came here! It's going to help a lot in planning my pond!

Thanks!

## Yes, you'll learn a lot here and on rec.ponds.

I'm not on rec.ponds, but I probably should join.
From what I've seen so far, there is a LOT more to maintaining a pond
than just digging a hole in the ground, putting in a waterfall/filter
system and letting it go!
I need to research it thoroughly before starting it!
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

Mostly I don't do ponds because I've had these fish for a long time and
am somewhat attached to them. Plus, one of them was given to me by a
friend who wanted to place her (yes it IS a her) in a good home when
she moved to CA.

I do like the idea of a pondquarium outside. Hmm...

Lilly

Katra wrote:
In article .com,
That would be tough, but, if you did an above ground small pond in a
sunny spot (it does not have to be very large), netted it to keep
predators out and ran a heater to keep it from freezing, it COULD be
done!

I knew people at 8,000 ft. above Denver colorado when we lived there
that did exactly that. :-)


And, with an above ground pond, you could glass the front of it to
give
an outdoor aquarium effect. I've been considering that myself, but
I'd
use plexiglass.

"Gunther" wrote in message
. net...
In article ,
says...
In article ,
"Benign Vanilla" wrote:

There are, http://www.unmc.edu/Education/Animal/guide/appenG8.html.


Great link!
Thank you!

I quote from http://www.fda.gov/cvm/guidance/guide150.pdf
"...neither clove oil nor any individual active ingredient of
clove oil (eugenol, isoeugenol, or methyleugenol) is approved
for use for the anesthesia of fish."

Great link, thanks! I added a new area to house links on clove oil,
http://www.iheartmypond.com/Treatments/CloveOil/.

That's from the FDA/CVM -- Center for Veterinary Medicine.
The document mentioned earlier from UNMC also doesn't list
eugenol or clove oil.

Now, I strongly suspect this actually means as a treatment
for animals being raised as human foods.

I think what it means is it has not been thoroughly tested so it is not
blessed. Seeing as it is a low priority, it'll probably never get the time
and money to be treated as a FDS blessed product. That doesn't mean it
doesn't work!

But I still maintain that the best way is to put them in
a tupperware or ziplock container full of water, put it
in the freezer, shut the door, and don't look until it's
a solid block. Whether they feel pain or not is less important
than how _I_ feel if I see them struggle or if I am forced to
bash them with a hammer.

How we feel plays a big role in how they feel. Very true.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Clove oil is an anasthetic so I dont see why using it
for eauthanasia is an issue

"Katra" wrote in message
...
snip
Racoons can be a problem as well.
If you have a good stone rim around the edges for the fish to hide
under, can that help?
snip

I think the only real solution is depth. Heron seem to be limited at the 3
foot depth, and I am sure Racoons are much less.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

"Katra" wrote in message
...
snip
EPDM is a heavy gauge rubber material. It is UV resistant and quite tear
resistant. It is a great liner material, aside from it's weight. For my
pond, the liner weight probably close to a hundred pounds.

Cool. Since I'm planning on putting in a pond soon, it's nice to get all
the hints I can!!!
snip

I prefer the EPDM because of cost. The weight does not bother me. How many
times am I really going to pick it up? LOL. Xavan, and Permalon are other
options. Very light weight but a bit more pricey. PVC has been used as well,
but it is sensitive to UV and will breakdown eventually, so it's IMHO a bad
choice.

I have a few bits and pieces of liner info here,
http://www.iheartmypond.com/design/liners/.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

"Katra" wrote in message
...
snip
I know this is probably a stupid question, but what is the difference
between a koi and a goldfish, and how much are baby koi worth?
snip

There are no stupid questions. Nothing is obvious until it is pointed out to
you.

Koi,
http://species.fishindex.com/species...arpio_koi.html
Goldfish,
http://species.fishindex.com/species...oldfish.htm l


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com/animals/fish
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.