Herons

"~ Windsong ~" P@P wrote in message
...
snip
Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.

$$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-) Have you any idea what
something like that would cost? If we had that kind of money we could
call
in some pond builders and redo both ponds. In fact replace them with one
huge 3 to 4,000 gallon pond. But where would I put the plants then if
there
are no shelves? How would this keep the (bullfrogs, snakes, snappers)
King
Fishers out of the steep sided pond? Steep sided plants ponds are not
attractive or natural looking.

I beg your pardon. The near edge of my pond goes vertical to the bottom,
http://www.darofamily.com/jeff/files...e/p1010064.jpg. And I think
it's perty damn nice pond.

The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter. The whole stream had
pretty good daylight exposure for plant growth while the actual pond was
partially shaded. Actually, the only foreign species in the pond was a
muskrat that kept trying to build its nest in the pump house. Watching
the
herons catch the fish in the stream added a nice natural touch I
thought.

$$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us
who
don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
huge streams?

I built my stream, which is about 5-6 feet long, with scraps of liner.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

"~ Windsong ~" P@P wrote in message
...
snip
I think Kathy is just saying there are options that work. For example,
by
hooting, hollering, running, screaming, flapping my arms technique
(patent
pending) has worked very well.

## So you stand outside or have someone stand outside from sunup to
sundown? We can't afford to pay someone to stay out there guarding our
ponds 7 days a week. In summer we often go away for weekends.

No, but that's my point. We've done this I think a grand total of three
times, and Mr. Heron has not been back. No maybe that is because of the
weather, but maybe, just maybe it's because we made it an unfriendly place
for him. Or maybe MY heron hates idiots that shout at him. I dunno. I am not
saying I have found the magic cure for Herons, but I have kept that one
away.

As for the summer, we go away a lot as well. So far this has not been a
problem.

No fish loss from Heron so far. Your Heron
and Kingfishers may be more persistent then mine. I have many ponds in
yards
around me, so maybe they just other, quieter sources of food. Either
way,
my
solution has so far...worked very well.
snip

## See above. We can't afford to hire a guard and we're not always home.
When we are, we are not at the windows watching for fish predators. I
would run out doing the screaming and flapping, with the 3 dogs no less -
I
wrote about it here several years ago. At first it worked. They'd stay
away for a few days. Then, after awhile, a few weeks maybe, the herons
would fly into nearby trees until I went back inside. Within 15 minutes
they were fishing again. Yes, they were persistent. We often saw one
fishing in the ponds while another was up in a nearby tree. Or one was
behind the house fishing the kiddy pools. On one occasion there were
three
in our yard.

I've never seen such a Heron problem. You should probably net your pond, and
stop inviting Alfred Hitchcock over for dinner.

snip
True that. Last year, one of our Koi disappeared, plants knocked over
and
a
very racoon like scat was found on the edge of the pond. Dern Racoons.
My
neighbor even mentioned to me he saw a racoon walking down the street
towards my house. He must have heard about the buffet. My fish will swim
into your hand if you sit there, so they are certainly dinner options
for
animals.

## Because of the dogs raccoons don't come into our yard. We have them as
well as deer, possums, skunks, red and blue fox, huge flocks of turkeys,
hawks......

We've got hawks, falcons, racoons, skunks, fox, neighbor cats, my cat, my
dog, more frogs then I can count, and periodically a snake or two. Oh and
there was that kanagaroo looking mouse thing in Novemeber.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ P@p wrote:
"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.

$$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-) Have you any idea what
something like that would cost? If we had that kind of money we could call
in some pond builders and redo both ponds. In fact replace them with one
huge 3 to 4,000 gallon pond. But where would I put the plants then if there
are no shelves? How would this keep the (bullfrogs, snakes, snappers) King
Fishers out of the steep sided pond? Steep sided plants ponds are not
attractive or natural looking.

To quote one of my favorite characters... "my, but we are in a mood
today". You do seem to be quite argumentative on this subject. I will make
this one attempt at reason, but any more such illogical replies such as
"if we were rich" will be summarily ignored.

The setup I described was not likely to have been expensive. It was part
of a public park that was set up and maintained completely by volunteers
and donations (and most of those volunteers were part of the 60+ club, so
I doubt they contributed much to the digging of the whole thing). I was
not privy to the costs, but given these facts I doubt it was that much
more expensive than your standard pond and waterfall. The stream was not
some huge river as you seem to be thinking it was, just about 15-20 feet
long and no more than a foot deep leading from the waterfalls to the pond.
The labor may have been an issue given the age of many of the volunteers,
but then it always is an issue when digging out a pond. The key here is to
think beforehand and plan. Just as it would not be wise to put the pond
where all the runoff collects, one should also consider the wildlife of
the area when designing the pond.

As for the attractiveness, the pond was quite attractive with its
surrounding landscaping. It used plants that were fine in deep water,
floating plants and in the case of the lilies, supported by columns too
narrow to allow much perching space. I'm sure a smaller heron could have
tried, but I never observed one bothering because the stream was far
easier to wade into.

The stream was
teaming with mosquito fish, crayfish and occasionally goldfish fry. The
herons almost always ate from there instead of attempting to get anything
in the main pond because they could wade into the stream and have pretty
easy pickings.

$$ What stream? How long was the stream,? Herons do not want 1/2" fry or
small crayfish. How did you keep mosquito fish in the stream and out of the
pond itself?

What stream? The one I keep describing here that you called expensive in
the previous paragraph. Do try to keep up dear. The fish were not forced
to remain anywhere. The mosquito fish and fry could also be found in the
main pond and waterfall pools as well as along the stream. Nothing
restricted their movement so they were found everywhere, although the ones
found in the pools were probably sucked up by the pump and deposited there
unless they did salmon impressions and jumped upstream. The crayfish did
tend to stay in the stream, probably didn't like the drop at the end of
the stream into the pond.

Loosing those kind of fish wasn't a big deal (although I
suppose losing too many mosquito fish could be a problem in mosquito
season, but it's easy to get more).

$$ Mosquitoes do not breed in streams (moving water). I can't believe you
managed to keep the fish in the stream for the herons, and out of your
pond. Did you have a net at the end of the stream? How large were the
mosquito fish?

The water was not fast moving, so there was plenty of opportunity for
mosquito larva to breed. Just as water based larva occasionally will get
into indoor tanks if breeding gnats or mosquitos make it indoors, the
movement of the stream was insufficient to take care of the larva in and
of itself. Refer to prior paragraph as for fish movement between stream
and pond.

The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter. The whole stream had
pretty good daylight exposure for plant growth while the actual pond was
partially shaded. Actually, the only foreign species in the pond was a
muskrat that kept trying to build its nest in the pump house. Watching the
herons catch the fish in the stream added a nice natural touch I thought.

$$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us who
don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
huge streams?

My, we are repetitive aren't we. This sort of language would get you
branded at the least excitable and at the worst a troll in another
newsgroup I visit. For the moment, I will leave it at "excitable" in my
mind, but the line is quickly becoming blurred.

We had taken the scarecrow down for the winter and today
a great blue heron visited the pond. Dh chased it off
before it had a chance to catch a fish. The weather is
warm today but that is supposed to change tonight.
Hopefully we'll have a nice layer of ice on the pond soon.
The koi are deep but the goldfish are still up near the surface.
--
Bonnie
NJ

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"~ Windsong ~" P@P wrote in message
...
snip
Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.

$$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-) Have you any idea
what
something like that would cost? If we had that kind of money we could
call
in some pond builders and redo both ponds. In fact replace them with
one
huge 3 to 4,000 gallon pond. But where would I put the plants then if
there
are no shelves? How would this keep the (bullfrogs, snakes, snappers)
King
Fishers out of the steep sided pond? Steep sided plants ponds are not
attractive or natural looking.

I beg your pardon. The near edge of my pond goes vertical to the bottom,
http://www.darofamily.com/jeff/files...e/p1010064.jpg. And I
think
it's perty damn nice pond.

## Very nice pond. :-) My large pond has a plant shelf along 3 sides.

$$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us
who
don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
huge streams?

I built my stream, which is about 5-6 feet long, with scraps of liner.

## Sounds nice. ;-)

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ P@p wrote:
"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.

To quote one of my favorite characters... "my, but we are in a mood
today". You do seem to be quite argumentative on this subject.

## Oh really? You're wrong. Do you always get so easily upset when someone
questions you?

I will make
this one attempt at reason, but any more such illogical replies such as
"if we were rich" will be summarily ignored.

## Ok, if we win the lottery or came into a large inheritance we can have
the experts come in and build your dream pond in our front yard.. After all
not everyone has an extra $10,000+ to spend on ponds as you seem to think
they do. Any such suggestions from you that they do will be summarily
ignored. )

The setup I described was not likely to have been expensive. It was part
of a public park that was set up and maintained completely by volunteers
and donations (and most of those volunteers were part of the 60+ club, so
I doubt they contributed much to the digging of the whole thing).

## Then why suggest this to a private pond owner? Not expensive for me?
Where would I get *donations* from? I would have to pay someone to come in
and redo the whole thing.

I was
not privy to the costs, but given these facts I doubt it was that much
more expensive than your standard pond and waterfall. The stream was not
some huge river as you seem to be thinking it was, just about 15-20 feet
long and no more than a foot deep leading from the waterfalls to the pond.

## And how much do they charge for your standard 2000 to 3000 gallon pond
and waterfall where you live? What did the liners alone cost? ONLY 15 to
20' stream? That "stream" liner marterial is another several hundred
dollars at least.

The labor may have been an issue given the age of many of the volunteers,

## Here again - where would we find all these volunteers? Paying for what
you suggest would easily run around $8,000 to $10,000 or more where we live.
The water pump alone for such a setup would be well into the $500 range.
And you call me argumentative? LOL!!! Not everyone on this list has that
kind of money.

but then it always is an issue when digging out a pond. The key here is to
think beforehand and plan. Just as it would not be wise to put the pond
where all the runoff collects, one should also consider the wildlife of
the area when designing the pond.

## Since I had never seen water snakes, bullfrogs, King Fishers or herons
closely (where we live) we never gave them a thought. We started before I
got online so all we had to go by were books.

$$ What stream? How long was the stream,? Herons do not want 1/2" fry
or
small crayfish. How did you keep mosquito fish in the stream and out of
the
pond itself?

What stream?

## The one you claimed was 15 to 20 feet long and full of fish for the
herons.

The one I keep describing here that you called expensive in
the previous paragraph. Do try to keep up dear. The fish were not forced
to remain anywhere. The mosquito fish and fry could also be found in the
main pond and waterfall pools as well as along the stream.

## Yes dear I am keeping up. You mentioned a stream, now you mention
waterfall pools. You're talking about a HUGE expensive system, not what
most people have in their yards.

Nothing
restricted their movement so they were found everywhere, although the ones
found in the pools were probably sucked up by the pump and deposited there
unless they did salmon impressions and jumped upstream.

## So they passed through the impeller without harm? Must be a new type of
pump.

$$ Mosquitoes do not breed in streams (moving water). I can't believe
you
managed to keep the fish in the stream for the herons, and out of your
pond. Did you have a net at the end of the stream? How large were the
mosquito fish?

The water was not fast moving, so there was plenty of opportunity for
mosquito larva to breed. Just as water based larva occasionally will get
into indoor tanks if breeding gnats or mosquitos make it indoors, the
movement of the stream was insufficient to take care of the larva in and
of itself. Refer to prior paragraph as for fish movement between stream
and pond.

## I see, so the water pump would suck them in and spit them back at the end
of the 15 to 20 foot stream that also fed waterfalls and pools.

$$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us
who
don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
huge streams?

My, we are repetitive aren't we.

## My but you keep refusing to answer the question until now. I've seen
many ponds with streams in the past 9 years and never saw any of the fish go
UP the streams. They stayed in the pond itself whether there was a
waterfall or not.

This sort of language would get you
branded at the least excitable and at the worst a troll in another
newsgroup I visit.

## I couldn't care less about your other NGs since I am here. It's obvious
you think everyone has unlimited income to hire professionals to put in
ponds with 20' streams, special water pumps that do not harm fish,
waterfalls with pools, and then load them with mosquito fish to attract
herons away from their koi and GF. Would be nice if we all could afford
such a luxuries.... )

For the moment, I will leave it at "excitable" in my
mind, but the line is quickly becoming blurred.

## Killfile me! )
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }((((((o
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE softwa
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:05:46 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" P@P wrote:

## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall
gawky water sprayers

My motion sprinkler is neither gawky, nor tall. It only stands 18" high at
most, and is hardly noticable, as friends keep walking right in front of
it. Okay..... X-friends. ;o)

$$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-)

$$ And what about those of us who
don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
huge streams?

Carol, Did it occur that maybe every suggestion or comment here is not
necessary directed at you? I'm sure someone out there in usenet might have
money like this, and quite frankly, I wish they'd send me some and get the
idea of ponds out of their silly heads! It is obvious by this thread that
they'll just ugly net covered eye sores at best and/or will break their
hearts with fish losses at worst. So you all using all upper case so you
know it is a plead for money STOP PUTTING IN PONDS AND WASTING MONEY, SEND
IT TO ME! That's jjspondatgocougs.wsu.edu for direct contact on where to
send your dough. ;o)

In conclusion I think everyone here will agree that Carol I'm in the
Heron's Book To Fine Dining Windsong should always keep a net on her
ponds, no doubt about it. )

The rest of us can probably try other things with success, knowing nets are
always an option. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"~ Windsong ~" P@P wrote in message
...
snip
I think Kathy is just saying there are options that work. For example,
by
hooting, hollering, running, screaming, flapping my arms technique
(patent
pending) has worked very well.

## So you stand outside or have someone stand outside from sunup to
sundown? We can't afford to pay someone to stay out there guarding our
ponds 7 days a week. In summer we often go away for weekends.
============
No, but that's my point. We've done this I think a grand total of three
times, and Mr. Heron has not been back. No maybe that is because of the
weather, but maybe, just maybe it's because we made it an unfriendly place
for him.

## I see. I did the same thing with a broom and 3 dogs and the damn herons
would simply fly up into the nearby trees and wait for me to go bake in the
house. You are very fortunate to have scared them off in only 3 tries.

Or maybe MY heron hates idiots that shout at him. I dunno. I am not
saying I have found the magic cure for Herons, but I have kept that one
away.
As for the summer, we go away a lot as well. So far this has not been a
problem.

## Then you must have very few herons where you live.

I've never seen such a Heron problem. You should probably net your pond,
and
stop inviting Alfred Hitchcock over for dinner.

## I never knew this was so unusual. So many people I knew with pondsa also
had heron problems. But we live about 1/2 mile from Percy Priest Lake.
I've learned there are loads of herons and cranes there. Also canadian
geese and all kinds of ducks.

We've got hawks, falcons, racoons, skunks, fox, neighbor cats, my cat, my
dog, more frogs then I can count, and periodically a snake or two. Oh and
there was that kanagaroo looking mouse thing in Novemeber.

## We have neighbor's cats here as well, but we never saw them trying to
catch fish or even near the ponds.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:05:46 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" P@P wrote:

## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall
gawky water sprayers

My motion sprinkler is neither gawky, nor tall. It only stands 18" high at
most, and is hardly noticable, as friends keep walking right in front of
it. Okay..... X-friends. ;o)

## LOL!! :-D

Carol, Did it occur that maybe every suggestion or comment here is not
necessary directed at you?

## I thought it was,... silly me. :-))

I'm sure someone out there in usenet might have
money like this, and quite frankly, I wish they'd send me some and get the
idea of ponds out of their silly heads!

## With my husband semi-retired we can't invest any more money in ponds. I
wish we could. I would love to have one 3000 gallon pond rather then the 2
I have.

It is obvious by this thread that
they'll just ugly net covered eye sores at best and/or will break their
hearts with fish losses at worst. So you all using all upper case so you
know it is a plead for money STOP PUTTING IN PONDS AND WASTING MONEY,
SEND
IT TO ME! That's jjspondatgocougs.wsu.edu for direct contact on where to
send your dough. ;o)

## If they send you too much you can split it with me.

In conclusion I think everyone here will agree that Carol I'm in the
Heron's Book To Fine Dining Windsong should always keep a net on her
ponds, no doubt about it. )

## Only if I want to keep GF and koi.

The rest of us can probably try other things with success, knowing nets
are
always an option. ~ jan

--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }((((((o
"They laugh because I'm different, I laugh because they're all the same."
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Completely FREE softwa
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

yet another with a fast kill file finger! The only requirement to get
killl filed is dissagree with the so called self professed pond gods /
goddesses. There is no discussion of things in these forums, its all
one sided Windsong, remember that, dissagree and you get rapped hard
and kill filed............



On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:42:59 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" P@P wrote:

===
==="Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
=== In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ P@p wrote:
=== "Cichlidiot" wrote in message
=== ...
=== Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
=== designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
=== fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
=== design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
=== long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.
===
=== To quote one of my favorite characters... "my, but we are in a mood
=== today". You do seem to be quite argumentative on this subject.
===
===## Oh really? You're wrong. Do you always get so easily upset when someone
===questions you?
===
===I will make
=== this one attempt at reason, but any more such illogical replies such as
=== "if we were rich" will be summarily ignored.
===
===## Ok, if we win the lottery or came into a large inheritance we can have
===the experts come in and build your dream pond in our front yard.. After all
===not everyone has an extra $10,000+ to spend on ponds as you seem to think
===they do. Any such suggestions from you that they do will be summarily
===ignored. )
===
=== The setup I described was not likely to have been expensive. It was part
=== of a public park that was set up and maintained completely by volunteers
=== and donations (and most of those volunteers were part of the 60+ club, so
=== I doubt they contributed much to the digging of the whole thing).
===
===## Then why suggest this to a private pond owner? Not expensive for me?
===Where would I get *donations* from? I would have to pay someone to come in
===and redo the whole thing.
===
===I was
=== not privy to the costs, but given these facts I doubt it was that much
=== more expensive than your standard pond and waterfall. The stream was not
=== some huge river as you seem to be thinking it was, just about 15-20 feet
=== long and no more than a foot deep leading from the waterfalls to the pond.
===
===## And how much do they charge for your standard 2000 to 3000 gallon pond
===and waterfall where you live? What did the liners alone cost? ONLY 15 to
===20' stream? That "stream" liner marterial is another several hundred
===dollars at least.
===
=== The labor may have been an issue given the age of many of the volunteers,
===
===## Here again - where would we find all these volunteers? Paying for what
===you suggest would easily run around $8,000 to $10,000 or more where we live.
===The water pump alone for such a setup would be well into the $500 range.
===And you call me argumentative? LOL!!! Not everyone on this list has that
===kind of money.
===
=== but then it always is an issue when digging out a pond. The key here is to
=== think beforehand and plan. Just as it would not be wise to put the pond
=== where all the runoff collects, one should also consider the wildlife of
=== the area when designing the pond.
===
===## Since I had never seen water snakes, bullfrogs, King Fishers or herons
===closely (where we live) we never gave them a thought. We started before I
===got online so all we had to go by were books.
===
=== $$ What stream? How long was the stream,? Herons do not want 1/2" fry
===or
=== small crayfish. How did you keep mosquito fish in the stream and out of
===the
=== pond itself?
===
=== What stream?
===
===## The one you claimed was 15 to 20 feet long and full of fish for the
===herons.
===
===The one I keep describing here that you called expensive in
=== the previous paragraph. Do try to keep up dear. The fish were not forced
=== to remain anywhere. The mosquito fish and fry could also be found in the
=== main pond and waterfall pools as well as along the stream.
===
===## Yes dear I am keeping up. You mentioned a stream, now you mention
===waterfall pools. You're talking about a HUGE expensive system, not what
===most people have in their yards.
===
===Nothing
=== restricted their movement so they were found everywhere, although the ones
=== found in the pools were probably sucked up by the pump and deposited there
=== unless they did salmon impressions and jumped upstream.
===
===## So they passed through the impeller without harm? Must be a new type of
===pump.
===
=== $$ Mosquitoes do not breed in streams (moving water). I can't believe
===you
=== managed to keep the fish in the stream for the herons, and out of your
=== pond. Did you have a net at the end of the stream? How large were the
=== mosquito fish?
===
=== The water was not fast moving, so there was plenty of opportunity for
=== mosquito larva to breed. Just as water based larva occasionally will get
=== into indoor tanks if breeding gnats or mosquitos make it indoors, the
=== movement of the stream was insufficient to take care of the larva in and
=== of itself. Refer to prior paragraph as for fish movement between stream
=== and pond.
===
===## I see, so the water pump would suck them in and spit them back at the end
===of the 15 to 20 foot stream that also fed waterfalls and pools.
===
=== $$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us
===who
=== don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
=== huge streams?
===
=== My, we are repetitive aren't we.
===
===## My but you keep refusing to answer the question until now. I've seen
===many ponds with streams in the past 9 years and never saw any of the fish go
===UP the streams. They stayed in the pond itself whether there was a
===waterfall or not.
===
===This sort of language would get you
=== branded at the least excitable and at the worst a troll in another
=== newsgroup I visit.
===
===## I couldn't care less about your other NGs since I am here. It's obvious
===you think everyone has unlimited income to hire professionals to put in
===ponds with 20' streams, special water pumps that do not harm fish,
===waterfalls with pools, and then load them with mosquito fish to attract
===herons away from their koi and GF. Would be nice if we all could afford
===such a luxuries.... )
===
===For the moment, I will leave it at "excitable" in my
=== mind, but the line is quickly becoming blurred.
===
===## Killfile me! )


REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Sooooooooooooooooolow to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS