I am not crazy. Jumping mice exist.

Well, BUB yourself, it's not the "property rights fanatics" that take the
streambed, channelize it and line it with rip-rap - that's done only with
the local and state governments' and the EPA's blessings, and with the
taxpayers' dollars. I doubt if any of us on rec.ponds have even in our
worst dreams wanted to do something like that - after all we are in the
"business" of creating soul-soothing works of art and pleasure for ourselves
and the fish and plants.

The "property rights fanatic" as you put it, who is usually just a small
ordinary homeowner will get fined and/or imprisoned for even lifting a
finger to alter or improve the habitat - his land has become worthless, held
hostage by the enviros. People who have tried to clean up dumping grounds
with discarded trash, old tires, rusting auto body parts etc. in a swampy
field have been "legally" and royally screwed for trying to improve their
own property.

Most ordinary people who are landowners and not just looking to make a fast
development buck are in it for the long run - they try to be good stewards
of the land. The things you're talking about, are usually done in spite of
what people want, to enrich bigger developers who are totally in cahoots
with the County Board of Supervisors or other governing body who have to
approve the kind of crap you rightly deplore. Funny how all the government
regulation that so many people place their faith and trust in, doesn't do a
damn thing to prevent that!

wrote in message
ups.com...

tim chandler wrote:
I used to live in Monument, CO, less than 100 yards from Monument
Creek, one
of the areas in which this mouse lives. Development is a fact of
life along
the Front Range - but waterways are protected from development and
monitored
for quality at least as much as anywhere else, given the scarcity of
water
and the popularity everywhere in Colorado of "greenways" and parks.

Not at all, I grew up in Jefferson County in the 50's and 60's! All
the streams and wetlands near where I grew up are gone or destoryed!
The place that use to have ground nesting birds and great fields full
of wildlife plus a good stream are all gone! They even built a
concrete ditch for the stream and built right over it! You go to
Jefferson County and El Paso County you will see streams that have rip
rock along the sides! The stream bed is just a concrete brainage dith
= no more craw Daddin; there! It keeps the water moving fast and
ensures that downstream communities get a lot of water real fast! You
go to Douglas County and they have built massively near streams!
Douglas county has restored some areas and they look grat; but with the
mouse not a mouse of concern anymore, all that will go away! And the
riparian water ways are a major source of critical habitat and
migration route for wildlife! I think they will soon like like the
drainage ditches Denver calls Cherry Creek and the South Platte when
they flow through Denver!


IMO
there is no danger of eliminating this mouse, certainly not in the
Monument
area - they'd have to pave over the whole place to do that,


seen it done and the rip rock method will eliminate wildlife near any
drainage ditch bank!

and although
there's too much development there now for my taste, there are still
many,
many homes on one acre or more that are not going to disappear. And
regulations and community standards and desires still operate
democratically
at least in most places, so that truly outrageous development
programs tend
to get nipped, if not always in the bud. Compared to places back
East, it's
still wide open out there with usually too much and too dense
vegetation
that presents a fire hazard every year.

Ohh sound like you are trying to draw in the property rights fanatics -
I imagine Douglas Bruce will be on that issues some day!


There has to be a balance. But for too many years the enviro
"Chicken
Littles" have been getting away with murder in stopping development
because
it doesn't fit their "I've got mine, close the gates NOW"

I live in Denver Central = as such I don't have mine! You look at
someone building out in the boonies and they are most liekly to be to
the right and just want theirs!


attitude and in
using court decrees to thwart laws and stop things they don't like,

If you read the link I provided, the Preble's meadown jumping mouse has
not stopped on development!


circumventing the will of the people. The mice are important but
development can and should be sanely balanced - not insanely in favor
of the
enviros as previously.

Like the ever-popular bumper sticker says, "Don't Californicate
Colorado!"

Tim C.


Been to you area BUB - see development directly only to development -
and not the flood gates will open!

Wow = Don't Californicate Colorado!" = uyou think there is some reason
the people from Calif are moving out!! Yep development! You take such
as the Mall in Englewood - Cindereally city was it not! They developed
it to the point that traffic and congestion devalued the area and
people moved out! You cant stop Californicate Colorado!"




wrote in message
ups.com...

Derek Broughton wrote:
Benign Vanilla wrote:

Some of you may remember my wife's attempt at convincing me I
was
losing
my mind, when I found a jumping kangaroo like mouse in the
house a
few
months back.

I may be insane, but Yahoo! is apparently in on it...

Jumping Mouse Loses Federal Protection

WASHINGTON - The Preble's meadow jumping mouse, once seen as a
costly
impediment to development, is now viewed by the government as a
critter
that never really existed - and is no longer in need of federal
protection
under the Endangered Species Act.

Sorry, but the point of that whole piece is that it never _did_
exist
(though, to be fair, the Preble's jumping mouse doesn't exist
only
because
it's actually just a different kind of jumping mouse :-) )
--
derek

You want a good article on the mouse situation:
http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2004-04-08/cover.html

tim chandler wrote:
Well, BUB yourself, it's not the "property rights fanatics" that take
the
streambed, channelize it and line it with rip-rap - that's done only
with
the local and state governments' and the EPA's blessings, and with
the
taxpayers' dollars. I doubt if any of us on rec.ponds have even in
our
worst dreams wanted to do something like that - after all we are in
the
"business" of creating soul-soothing works of art and pleasure for
ourselves
and the fish and plants.

The "property rights fanatic" as you put it, who is usually just a
small
ordinary homeowner will get fined and/or imprisoned for even lifting
a
finger to alter or improve the habitat - his land has become
worthless, held
hostage by the enviros. People who have tried to clean up dumping
grounds
with discarded trash, old tires, rusting auto body parts etc. in a
swampy
field have been "legally" and royally screwed for trying to improve
their
own property.

Most ordinary people who are landowners and not just looking to make
a fast
development buck are in it for the long run - they try to be good
stewards
of the land. The things you're talking about, are usually done in
spite of
what people want, to enrich bigger developers who are totally in
cahoots
with the County Board of Supervisors or other governing body who have
to
approve the kind of crap you rightly deplore. Funny how all the
government
regulation that so many people place their faith and trust in,
doesn't do a
damn thing to prevent that!


http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,...690995,00.html

Article Published: Friday, February 04, 2005
editorial

Preble's mouse like canary in coal mine

The endangered status of the Preble's meadow jumping mouse warns of
widespread losses of wildlife habitat as developers chew up the Front
Range.


The rodent is still roaring, despite the U.S. Interior Department's
push to take the Preble's meadow jumping mouse off the endangered
species list. The Front Range is losing streamside wildlife habitat at
an alarming rate, putting many native plants and animals at risk.
Regardless of whether the Preble's is truly endangered, Colorado should
take steps to preserve its key foothills ecosystems.

Our region's small streams harbor fish and other aquatic life, while
trees, wildflowers and grasses on their banks shelter songbirds,
raptors and other wildlife. These riparian ecosystems also provide
people with open space, protect drinking water quality and absorb
overflows that otherwise might flood towns and cities.

Yet Front Range riparian areas, from Denver to the foothills, are being
rapidly destroyed by human encroachment. By some estimates, urban
sprawl may threaten 60 percent of our region's small watersheds. In the
past, such areas were de facto open space as they existed on ranches
and farms, but between 1992 and 1997, Colorado lost more than 270,000
acres of agricultural lands to development. Why? Population. From 1990
to 2001, the Front Range added more than 900,000 residents; as many
people now live on the Front Range as there were in all of Colorado in
1990.

Preble's mice are like canaries in the mine, warning of widespread
losses in wildlife habitat. Developers howled in 1998 when the U.S.
Fish and Wildlife Service listed the mice as endangered. It forced them
to preserve riparian ecosystems, and in the process, helped save
habitat for other species, too.

But in the last six years, developers have heavily pressured Uncle Sam
to take the Preble's mouse off the endangered list, and last week, U.S.
Interior Department officials said they are in the process of doing so.
The effort is based largely on last year's study by Rob Roy Ramey II of
Denver's Museum of Nature and Science. He concluded that the Preble's
jumping mouse was not distinct from a species found in the Black Hills.

However, other studies show that the related rodent, the Bear Lodge
meadow jumping mouse, also is at risk of extinction. If that's the
case, lumping Preble's mice with the Bear Lodge species may not bring a
change in its protected status nor give developers the relief they
seek.

Either way, the larger issue - vanishing Front Range ecosystems - must
be addressed. If habitat losses continue, developers may face future
and possibly tougher restrictions to protect other species. It's a case
of taking care now, or being forced to do so in the future.





wrote in message
ups.com...

tim chandler wrote:
I used to live in Monument, CO, less than 100 yards from Monument
Creek, one
of the areas in which this mouse lives. Development is a fact of
life along
the Front Range - but waterways are protected from development
and
monitored
for quality at least as much as anywhere else, given the scarcity
of
water
and the popularity everywhere in Colorado of "greenways" and
parks.

Not at all, I grew up in Jefferson County in the 50's and 60's!
All
the streams and wetlands near where I grew up are gone or
destoryed!
The place that use to have ground nesting birds and great fields
full
of wildlife plus a good stream are all gone! They even built a
concrete ditch for the stream and built right over it! You go to
Jefferson County and El Paso County you will see streams that have
rip
rock along the sides! The stream bed is just a concrete brainage
dith
= no more craw Daddin; there! It keeps the water moving fast and
ensures that downstream communities get a lot of water real fast!
You
go to Douglas County and they have built massively near streams!
Douglas county has restored some areas and they look grat; but with
the
mouse not a mouse of concern anymore, all that will go away! And
the
riparian water ways are a major source of critical habitat and
migration route for wildlife! I think they will soon like like the
drainage ditches Denver calls Cherry Creek and the South Platte
when
they flow through Denver!


IMO
there is no danger of eliminating this mouse, certainly not in
the
Monument
area - they'd have to pave over the whole place to do that,


seen it done and the rip rock method will eliminate wildlife near
any
drainage ditch bank!

and although
there's too much development there now for my taste, there are
still
many,
many homes on one acre or more that are not going to disappear.
And
regulations and community standards and desires still operate
democratically
at least in most places, so that truly outrageous development
programs tend
to get nipped, if not always in the bud. Compared to places back
East, it's
still wide open out there with usually too much and too dense
vegetation
that presents a fire hazard every year.

Ohh sound like you are trying to draw in the property rights
fanatics -
I imagine Douglas Bruce will be on that issues some day!


There has to be a balance. But for too many years the enviro
"Chicken
Littles" have been getting away with murder in stopping
development
because
it doesn't fit their "I've got mine, close the gates NOW"

I live in Denver Central = as such I don't have mine! You look at
someone building out in the boonies and they are most liekly to be
to
the right and just want theirs!


attitude and in
using court decrees to thwart laws and stop things they don't
like,

If you read the link I provided, the Preble's meadown jumping mouse
has
not stopped on development!


circumventing the will of the people. The mice are important but
development can and should be sanely balanced - not insanely in
favor
of the
enviros as previously.

Like the ever-popular bumper sticker says, "Don't Californicate
Colorado!"

Tim C.


Been to you area BUB - see development directly only to development
-
and not the flood gates will open!

Wow = Don't Californicate Colorado!" = uyou think there is some
reason
the people from Calif are moving out!! Yep development! You take
such
as the Mall in Englewood - Cindereally city was it not! They
developed
it to the point that traffic and congestion devalued the area and
people moved out! You cant stop Californicate Colorado!"




wrote in message
ups.com...

Derek Broughton wrote:
Benign Vanilla wrote:

Some of you may remember my wife's attempt at convincing me
I
was
losing
my mind, when I found a jumping kangaroo like mouse in the
house a
few
months back.

I may be insane, but Yahoo! is apparently in on it...

Jumping Mouse Loses Federal Protection

WASHINGTON - The Preble's meadow jumping mouse, once seen
as a
costly
impediment to development, is now viewed by the government
as a
critter
that never really existed - and is no longer in need of
federal
protection
under the Endangered Species Act.

Sorry, but the point of that whole piece is that it never
_did_
exist
(though, to be fair, the Preble's jumping mouse doesn't exist
only
because
it's actually just a different kind of jumping mouse :-) )
--
derek

You want a good article on the mouse situation:
http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2004-04-08/cover.html