Yellow Labs - Behavior Question

wrote:
On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 11:20:11 -0500, "CanadianCray"

The water should have high PH & be very hard.
Source? just about anything I've read sofar disputes this? I'd very much
like to know if I'm mistaken

/tommi

"Tommi Jensen" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 11:20:11 -0500, "CanadianCray"

The water should have high PH & be very hard.
Source? just about anything I've read sofar disputes this? I'd very much
like to know if I'm mistaken

/tommi

you are mistaken
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profile...es.php?id=1669


Temperatu 78 - 82°F

pH: 7.8 - 8.6

Water Hardness: Very Hard




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agent smith wrote:
you are mistaken
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profile...es.php?id=1669
Temperatu 78 - 82°F
pH: 7.8 - 8.6
Water Hardness: Very Hard
Misquoted, that's what I've seen in just about any article or other read
material so far. Steve says otherwise, and I'd like to know on what he
bases this.

/Tommmi

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:27:52 +0100, Tommi Jensen wrote:

agent smith wrote:
you are mistaken
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profile...es.php?id=1669
Temperatu 78 - 82°F
pH: 7.8 - 8.6
Water Hardness: Very Hard
Misquoted, that's what I've seen in just about any article or other read
material so far. Steve says otherwise, and I'd like to know on what he
bases this.


By sampling the water in which the fishes were shipped from Lake
Malawi. The exporter said that it was unprocessed lake water.

I think all the recent papers just quote from:

"Talling, J.F., and I.B. Talling. 1965. The chemical composition of
African lake waters. Internationale Revue der Gesamte Hydrobiologie
50 (3): 421-463."

Their paper is multiple site sampling. It's not specific to where most
of the aquarium fish live. Most of the coastal region are not
particularly hard water but there are some areas where the water is
hard.


--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 04:36:26 +0100, Tommi Jensen wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 11:20:11 -0500, "CanadianCray"

The water should have high PH & be very hard.
Source? just about anything I've read sofar disputes this? I'd very much
like to know if I'm mistaken


You misquoted me.

I said it was wrong.

Malawi is slightly alkaline but it is not very hard.


--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

wrote:
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 04:36:26 +0100, Tommi Jensen wrote:


wrote:

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 11:20:11 -0500, "CanadianCray"

The water should have high PH & be very hard.

Source? just about anything I've read sofar disputes this? I'd very much
like to know if I'm mistaken



You misquoted me.

Very true, for that I apologize, but the question still stand.
look e.g. at the other response to my post and the article it mentions,
another example of wrong assumptions if you are correct.
I said it was wrong.
which was why I asked "source?".

Malawi is slightly alkaline but it is not very hard.

/Tommi

"Tommi Jensen" wrote in message
...
snip
I said it was wrong.
which was why I asked "source?".

/Tommi


One of my pet peeves is people quoting websites as their main source of
information. As much as I enjoy reading the Cichlid-Forum and respect Marc
and Eric, just because it's written in an article on their site doesn't make
it right. With that said.

Sources for hardness. One must remember that pH and hardness is not the same
everywhere on the lake. Water will be lower in pH and softer where rivers
flow into the lakes.

According to Ad Konings in Malawi Cichlids 2nd edition, pH in Lake Malawi
is between 7.8 and 8.5. He does mention that the conductivity in Lake Malawi
(a measure of of mineral content) is relatively low when compared to the
other lakes in the Rift Valley at 200-260 microSiemens.
The only mention he makes of general hardness is that is should be
maintained above three degrees to help maintain the pH. He also mentions the
importance of dissolved oxygen.

In "A Fishkeeper's Guide to African Cichlids" by Paul Loiselle, he puts
total hardness of Lake Tanganyika at 10-12 degrees and Lake Malawi he
comments is less mineralized with a general hardness of 6-10 degrees. I
wouldn't say it was soft, but I would not agree with any of the articles
that say "Very Hard" either.

In the mineral break down, Lake Malawi contains more Calcium and Magnesium
Carbonates and some Silicates than Lake Tanganyika.
Lake Tanganyika contains Sodium, Magnesium, Potassium and a small percentage
of Calcium. These in the forms of Carbonates, Chloride, Sulfates and
Silicates.

Cheers,
Tim
www.fishaholics.org

Amateur Cichlids wrote:
One of my pet peeves is people quoting websites as their main source of
information. As much as I enjoy reading the Cichlid-Forum and respect Marc
and Eric, just because it's written in an article on their site doesn't make
it right. With that said.
Very much agreed - which is why I'm inquiring about the sources of this
observation, while this newly fangled `intarweb' is a great resource for
aquarists, it's also the source of much controversy and many disputing
`facts'. that, and nothing more is the reason I'm asking - because
unless you have ready access to a local ph.d in african riftlakes,
you're going to have to eihter go there yourself to measure hardness,
ph, etc - or rely on whatever informtion you're granted - disputing or
not, and then make your best acessment.

that somebody's posted it on usenet doesn't make it more true than an
article

I realize that it might have come off blunt, but being concise is imho
more important.

having said all that, I think it's great that this thread's lured out
some people with knowledge (well sourced too) I thank you all for that

Sources for hardness. One must remember that pH and hardness is not the same
everywhere on the lake. Water will be lower in pH and softer where rivers
flow into the lakes.

According to Ad Konings in Malawi Cichlids 2nd edition, pH in Lake Malawi
is between 7.8 and 8.5. He does mention that the conductivity in Lake Malawi
(a measure of of mineral content) is relatively low when compared to the
other lakes in the Rift Valley at 200-260 microSiemens.
The only mention he makes of general hardness is that is should be
maintained above three degrees to help maintain the pH. He also mentions the
importance of dissolved oxygen.

In "A Fishkeeper's Guide to African Cichlids" by Paul Loiselle, he puts
total hardness of Lake Tanganyika at 10-12 degrees and Lake Malawi he
comments is less mineralized with a general hardness of 6-10 degrees. I
wouldn't say it was soft, but I would not agree with any of the articles
that say "Very Hard" either.
Right - having `researched' - i.e. google-more articles with "dubious"
sources - it'd seem that Taganyika is quite hard, whereas malawi could
be considered `soft' in comparison, yet still relatively hard.

In the mineral break down, Lake Malawi contains more Calcium and Magnesium
Carbonates and some Silicates than Lake Tanganyika.
Lake Tanganyika contains Sodium, Magnesium, Potassium and a small percentage
of Calcium. These in the forms of Carbonates, Chloride, Sulfates and
Silicates.


and thanks alot for this imho invaluable contribution to my knowledge :P


/Tommi

Tommi Jensen wrote:
Amateur Cichlids wrote:
One of my pet peeves is people quoting websites as their main source of
information. As much as I enjoy reading the Cichlid-Forum and respect
Marc and Eric, just because it's written in an article on their site
doesn't make it right. With that said.
Very much agreed - which is why I'm inquiring about the sources of this
observation, while this newly fangled `intarweb' is a great resource for
aquarists, it's also the source of much controversy and many disputing
`facts'. that, and nothing more is the reason I'm asking - because
unless you have ready access to a local ph.d in african riftlakes,
you're going to have to eihter go there yourself to measure hardness,
ph, etc - or rely on whatever informtion you're granted - disputing or
not, and then make your best acessment.


If you want to get really technical have a look at these sites.



http://www.crle.uoguelph.ca/malawi/



http://www.gemswater.org/atlas-gwq/table7-e.html



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On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:39:39 +0100, Tommi Jensen wrote:

Right - having `researched' - i.e. google-more articles with "dubious"
sources - it'd seem that Taganyika is quite hard, whereas malawi could
be considered `soft' in comparison, yet still relatively hard.

Yep, it's all relative. Malawi is hard relative to most African rivers
but soft relative to most of the other rift lakes. The hardness is
related to the age of lakes and how long the minerals have been
accumulating. For example Tanganika is much older than Malawi.

In the late 1960's Peter Davies sent his first big Malawi shipment to
London. It came with a bottle of water to be tested. All I got was a
pair of auratus, a pair of elongatus and a water analysis.

Some years later a shipment from Malawi arrived in Manchester. One of
the bags had no fish! We thought is was a short shipment but later
realised it was just a space filler. It was an opportunity for further
water analysis. I remember the pH was near neutral and water was quite
soft. I know the pH may have reduced during the two days it took to
get from Malawi to Manchester but I don't know of any reason for the
water to soften. Chemists?

We didn't want to repeat the mistakes that had cost the Tanganika
keepers in the early sixties. Tanganika was thought to be the same
water as the Congo.


--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com